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How important is the turban?


Big_Tera
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On 6/11/2017 at 0:16 AM, Big_Tera said:

Is a person not a true Sikh unless he wears a turban?  What about those who wear one but do bad deeds. But you may have a mona who does good deeds. 

Which one is better?

First of all, if you were alive at the time of the 10th Guru, and Guru Sahib told you (in words) to keep your hair (or to do anything else), would you do so? I.e., do you accept or deny the authority of Guru Sahib? If you don't accept the authority of Guru Ji, there's no point in further discussion.

Secondly, in order to get a frame of reference, are you only doubting the turban?

Or are you doubting the injunction to keep sabat surat (complete form, including hair)?

Once we know the answers to these questions, we can move forward on a dialogue.

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1 hour ago, Big_Tera said:

Dont get me wrong. This thread is not trying to discourage people from wearing the turban. 

Wearing it is great and something to be be proud of. It is showing allegence to our Gurus. 

But at the same time we should label moneh as not true Sikhs.

This coward is trying to split Sikhs.  Must be dolly101 moni brother in law.  You coward, can't even read Gurbani and want to speak about Sikhi topics just so you can divide Sikhs.  

Every Sikh is learning from the Guru.  People without Sikh saroop will accept their wrong, Sikhs with lust problems will accept their mistakes and Sikhs with anger issues will accept their mistakes and so on. Sikhs will keep progressing and cowards like you will receive the proper punishment for your behavior.  

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6 minutes ago, BhForce said:

First of all, if you were alive at the time of the 10th Guru, and Guru Sahib told you (in words) to keep your hair (or to do anything else), would you do so? I.e., do you accept or deny the authority of Guru Sahib? If you don't accept the authority of Guru Ji, there's no point in further discussion.

Secondly, in order to get a frame of reference, are you only doubting the turban?

Or are you doubting the injunction to keep sabat surat (complete form, including hair)?

Once we know the answers to these questions, we can move forward on a dialogue.

I absolutely 100% agree with you. As I have said I haven't been shown that dashmesh pita unequivocally said the things you are attributing to him.. But I have limited knowledge and welcome any evidence of supporting documents that do support said statements.. I want to agree with you brother just show me the way.. I don't want to believe in hearsay we have as Sikhs been taught to hold the highest standards of truth and rationality.. The primary characteristic of onkaar is truth.. So when it comes to temporal historical assertions the burden of evidence should be quite easy.. Before we even explore the spiritual realm let us unequivocally accept what we know on what basis we have formed our opinions.. 

It really shouldn't be that hard for those amongst us who have performed khoj satisfied the burden of evidence to be brave enough to assert in Guru sahibs name what he said, what he wrote.. As a Sikh I am scared of attributing something to Guru sahib for which I have no evidence.. It's just hearsay otherwise.. Let's not forget about baba ram rai who changed just one word and was excommunicated.. 

Nevermind what some people here do on some threads.. E.g. Let's just for one moment accept that the hukumnama referenced above.. No. 38. Sir munae noo kanaiaa nahee daenee. Uos ghar daeve jithae Akal Purukh dee sikhee ha, jo karza-ai naa hovae, bhalae subhaa da hovae, bibaekee atae gyanvaan hovae - Do not given a daughter's hand in marriage to a shaven one. Give her to a household where the Undying divine personification Akal purakh and tenets of Sikhism are respected, to household without debt, of a pleasing nature, which is disciplined and educated

This statement attributed to Guru gobind Singh Ji as a hukumnama is sometimes articulated and translated as a Sikh should not give his daughter to a Muslim.. But it doesn't mention Muslim.. It only says one who has uncut hair. Going on it also talks about debt, that is in the same 'hukumnama' so does that mean someone with a mortgage, what about if you have karza on a car loan, or on the flip side earning karza on money in the bank 

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On 6/12/2017 at 11:40 AM, MisterrSingh said:

When I was growing up, moneh were magnanimous enough to put up their hands and say, "Y'know, I just can't deal with growing kesh and the daily responsibility of tying a dastaar. It's my fault, nobody else. The problem lies within me." At least they were honest back then.

Nowadays, as with most things, the desire to subvert perfectly valid norms and practices in the pursuit of discovering the so-called truth that's been kept from society thanks to some vague overarching conspiracy of suppression and deception, means shifting responsibility and blame for the individual's defects onto those very norms and values that were given to us solely for our benefit. Now, these people wish to chip away at the integrity of scripture to find a loophole or flimsily worded justification that will enable, or, best of all, approve of their personal life choices. 

I've long suspected future generations of Sikhs will graduate to openly disparaging certain Sikh teachings because they struggle to adhere to those values. The Dasam Granth issue was a precursor of what's yet to come. The final issue that will tear apart Sikhs will be the 5Ks / Baisakhi issue, i.e. huge numbers of followers will openly turn their back on the requirement of kesh and the need to take amrit. That's going to be the final nail in the coffin. It will be relegated to a small devout minority of fundamentalists who'll eventually be sidelined as an extreme or orthodox sect. Mainstream Sikhi will be redrawn as a soft, pacifist, Jain-esque faith requiring the minimum of dedication and adherence. That's the plan, believe me.

Questioning narratives and beliefs is incredibly important. Sikhs wouldn't exist if one particular individual who emerged in 1469 hadn't questioned the fundamentals of their existence and society in general. Yet, that spirit of discovery is being used to denigrate and undermine the very fabric of our beliefs. It's happening all over the world with all manner of philosophies and systems. "This is too difficult, therefore it must be wrong, because I can't possibly be expected to chisel away at improving myself thereby arriving at a place where I meet these conditions." It's this same attitude that has gradually destroyed the integrity of those things that are conducive to a successful and healthy society.

Saying that, the other side of the argument also holds water. It's controversial and not many will want to hear it: it's too easy to appear as a devout Sikh. There's no threshold of quality, or measurement of discerning the content of character behind the external appearance. Literally anyone, even the vilest of humans, can dress up as a Sikh. 

The fact that you called Jainism a "soft" laid back religion... You lost all the _____ i had to offer in respect of your response, which though started awesomely, lost me, because Jainism is anything but soft as it is a strict religion with hardcore ideology that has been steadfast for centuries.

Now... Being a Sikh, definitely in the outwards sense, requires agreement with the panths rules as transcribed by bhai mani singh but lets not forget that that rehat marayada is a political act established under punjab sikh guradwara act in early 1900s and was drafted multiple times over multiple years to appeasement of various individuals (babas) and organizations and certain convinces of the rulers of the time. All i can say is believe in SGGS and focus on your ownself and rest leave to waheguru to decide and judge.

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Guest AjeetSinghPunjabi
On 6/11/2017 at 1:01 AM, Big_Tera said:

Yes but whats is better to have a Sikh who does good deeds or someone who just wears a turban for the sake of it. 

I think there is a big misconception in our culture. ie we immediatley assume a turban wearing Sikh is somehow better. But are there actions not more important. I have come across many turban wearing Sikhs who smoke drink ect. Yet I know many mona who do not and are the complete opposite. So why respect someone just because he has a pagh on. It does not make them a better person inside. 

Wat stops those mona lisas from growing their hair then and keeping dastars or even taking amrit? 

If they are so good in their habits, and in alignment with sikhi values then i feel they're wasting wisdom by not implementing it. 

Keeping hair turban and taking amrit is not the end of it, but rather the beginning on a successful path. 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 2017-6-29 at 7:28 PM, silverSingh said:

I say that a turban or a dastar is very important for all sikhs whether they be khalsa or not. They must cover their kaysh with a turban this applies to both men and women and not just men.  Unless the women enoble themselves with a dastar there is no way their sons and daughters will do the same.  A dastar is to be worn by both to enoble themselves as opposed to decry or demean themselves by not wearing it. Every sikh should wear it and teach other sikhs to start wearing it too. Those that don't wear it look tawdry, crass, half-witted and not to mention, cloddish and  this applies to both men and women.

'Those that don't wear it look tawdry, crass, half-witted and not to mention, cloddish and  this applies to both men and women'

Are you for real? People who dont wear a turban look cloddish, half witted. 

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The turban is very important.There are several very useful life lessons which wearing a dastaar can impart to someone:

- Helps teach you not to care what people think (CONFIDENCE). I don't need to remind anyone that wearing a dastaar can be tough for a Sikh. Some people will immediately dislike you, laugh at you, abuse you or refuse to associate with you. But if you keep an open mind and learn to ignore this, you can build up a lot of confidence in yourself and in your identity. This is a very useful and very advantageous trait in a world full of sheeple who derive their entire sense of self-worth from how people they don't even care about perceive them. A person who is comfortable in their own skin can run rings around this weak-minded lot. 

- Forces you to stand by your principles. Another trait which puts you at an advantage over the billions of principle-prostitutes who aren't guided by anything other than personal greed and small-minded 'ambitions'. 

- Gives you a discipline. - The world is hectic, lots of people are in competition for jobs and resources. Many of these people are also quite lazy, avoiding hard work whenever they can, lacking meaningful or useful structure/regimes in their lives. Keeping kesh rehat forces you to be disciplined, this discipline is very useful in adult life and in the world of work. 

Of course one can acquire these traits without a dastaar, but I believe it gives a person a huge leg up.  This also isn't to say that everyone who does wear a turban possesses these qualities. 

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