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How important is the turban?


Big_Tera
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6 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

When I was growing up, moneh were magnanimous enough to put up their hands and say, "Y'know, I just can't deal with growing kesh and the daily responsibility of tying a dastaar. It's my fault, nobody else. The problem lies within me." At least they were honest back then.

Nowadays, as with most things, the desire to subvert perfectly valid norms and practices in the pursuit of discovering the so-called truth that's been kept from society thanks to some vague overarching conspiracy of suppression and deception, means shifting responsibility and blame for the individual's defects onto those very norms and values that were given to us solely for our benefit. Now, these people wish to chip away at the integrity of scripture to find a loophole or flimsily worded justification that will enable, or, best of all, approve of their personal life choices. 

I've long suspected future generations of Sikhs will graduate to openly disparaging certain Sikh teachings because they struggle to adhere to those values. The Dasam Granth issue was a precursor of what's yet to come. The final issue that will tear apart Sikhs will be the 5Ks / Baisakhi issue, i.e. huge numbers of followers will openly turn their back on the requirement of kesh and the need to take amrit. That's going to be the final nail in the coffin. It will be relegated to a small devout minority of fundamentalists who'll eventually be sidelined as an extreme or orthodox sect. Mainstream Sikhi will be redrawn as a soft, pacifist, Jain-esque faith requiring the minimum of dedication and adherence. That's the plan, believe me.

Questioning narratives and beliefs is incredibly important. Sikhs wouldn't exist if one particular individual who emerged in 1469 hadn't questioned the fundamentals of their existence and society in general. Yet, that spirit of discovery is being used to denigrate and undermine the very fabric of our beliefs. It's happening all over the world with all manner of philosophies and systems. "This is too difficult, therefore it must be wrong, because I can't possibly be expected to chisel away at improving myself thereby arriving at a place where I meet these conditions." It's this same attitude that has gradually destroyed the integrity of those things that are conducive to a successful and healthy society.

Saying that, the other side of the argument also holds water. It's controversial and not many will want to hear it: it's too easy to appear as a devout Sikh. There's no threshold of quality, or measurement of discerning the content of character behind the external appearance. Literally anyone, even the vilest of humans, can dress up as a Sikh. 

If the reason we wear turban is because to stand up to the mughals. Also is the turban not an arabic origin tradition? 

Why copy the arabs. Im not against the turban or Growing of the hair. But Im saying why cant somone be considered a true Sikh without the turban. 

From what I understand the turban is a cloth used to cover the long hair aw it would look odd to have long hair without a covering of some sort. 

My other issue is the arrogance that Some Sikhs have just because they wear a turban and think they are better even though they drink and eat meat ect. 

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40 minutes ago, Big_Tera said:

If the reason we wear turban is because to stand up to the mughals. Also is the turban not an arabic origin tradition? 

Why copy the arabs. Im not against the turban or Growing of the hair. But Im saying why cant somone be considered a true Sikh without the turban. 

From what I understand the turban is a cloth used to cover the long hair aw it would look odd to have long hair without a covering of some sort. 

You can try to rationalise it however you wish, but thankfully it's a choice not a compulsion. If you aren't feeling it, then nobody is forcing you to do anything.

 

40 minutes ago, Big_Tera said:

My other issue is the arrogance that Some Sikhs have just because they wear a turban and think they are better even though they drink and eat meat ect. 

How does that affect your personal relationship with God, or even your level of adherence?

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15 hours ago, Big_Tera said:

How is this wasting time? Should Sikhs just follow anything without questioning it. That is similar to the muslim ideology.

 

Gurbani speaks on the dastar.  Why are you scared to ask Guru Sahib?  Guru Sahib does not bite.  Since you have many questions like this.  It shows you are lazy to read Gurbani and/or you could careless what Guru sahib says and need some entertainment in life and come on forums to get this entertainment.  The wisdom from Gurbani is limitless.  Yet you choose to ask these questions to limited beings on forums who you don't know and very well could be just lazy as you.  A Sikh will learn from his Guru and present the teachings.  Today you don't even need to read every Ang of Gurbani.  You can type in key words into Gurbani search engines and find majority of the Gurbani written on dastar.  Instead of doing this you act like a whiney little school girl.....why can't I ask questions to manmukhs.......I want manmukh answers and no answer from the Guru.....leave me alone....waaaah waaah......

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11 hours ago, Akalifauj said:

Gurbani speaks on the dastar.  Why are you scared to ask Guru Sahib?  Guru Sahib does not bite.  Since you have many questions like this.  It shows you are lazy to read Gurbani and/or you could careless what Guru sahib says and need some entertainment in life and come on forums to get this entertainment.  The wisdom from Gurbani is limitless.  Yet you choose to ask these questions to limited beings on forums who you don't know and very well could be just lazy as you.  A Sikh will learn from his Guru and present the teachings.  Today you don't even need to read every Ang of Gurbani.  You can type in key words into Gurbani search engines and find majority of the Gurbani written on dastar.  Instead of doing this you act like a whiney little school girl.....why can't I ask questions to manmukhs.......I want manmukh answers and no answer from the Guru.....leave me alone....waaaah waaah......

Looks like you want to turn this debate into a gutter and trash talk like you are use to doing. This must be a sign of your mentality resorting to school yard name calling. I wont bother stooping to your low level. This is a forum with many people of knowledge.

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1 hour ago, Big_Tera said:

Thanks that was a straighforward answer I was looking for. 

I wouldn't pay too much attention to Sukhvirk especially if he is the same Sukhvirk that spreads misinformation and other manmat views like support for interfaith anand karajs (I have seen someone with the same name arguing in support of interfaith anand karajs).

So according to mr Virk...the only requirment that Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji makes of his Sikhs is " Sabh Sikhan ko Hukam Hai, Guru Maneyo Granth  "

Now a Hukum is literally translated a "command"...Now let me refer you to the 52 Hukums of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj...which you may Google at your own leisure for this particular topic refer to the below hukum :

35. Dastaar binaa nahee rehnaa - Never be without the turban, wear it always.

and also:

38. Sir munae noo kanaiaa nahee daenee. Uos ghar daeve jithae Akal Purukh dee sikhee ha, jo karza-ai naa hovae, bhalae subhaa da hovae, bibaekee atae gyanvaan hovae - Do not given a daughter's hand in marriage to a shaven one. Give her to a household where the Undying divine personification Akal purakh and tenets of Sikhism are respected, to household without debt, of a pleasing nature, which is disciplined and educated.

Sikh Rehat Maryada clearly stipultes that removal of hair is a cardinal sin, "bujajr kureight". To say that the only requirment Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji made of Sikhs is simply " Sabh Sikhan ko Hukam Hai, Guru Maneyo Granth  " Is hypocrisy at it's best,

Guru Gobind Singh Ji actually said, those Sikhs that do not follow rehit are not his Sikhs and he has no love for them:

Guru Gobind Singh's words; Rehit Binaa Neh Sikh Kehavai, Rehit Binaa Dar Chotaa Khhaavai This means that: Without the Rehat (the code of conduct) he should not be called a Sikh. Without the Rehat, the doors are closed in his face.

A further commentary is offered below from Sikharchives:

Commentary:   The Sikh turban is the most easily recognizable symbol of the Sikh Nation. It is explicitly mandated by Guru Gobind Singh.   It is a political device that is meant to give the Sikhs a different appearance.  It symbolizes the Sikhs as a nation and as a separate race and people.  Even though the Sikhs do not have a Sikh Homeland as long as they maintain the Turban they have a virtual homeland.  It must be clearly understood that the Sikh turban is an expression of Sikh political ideology.  It is said that the Sikh Nation rises up in it’s turban. A popular saying about the Sikh turban is : Ja Baghi Ja Badshah” – A person wearing the Sikh Turban is either a fugitive running away from the law or a King.  In order for Guru Gobind Singh’s dream of a Khalsa Nation to be shattered, the enemies of the Sikh Race must induce Sikhs to abandon the turban. The turban is that important and central to Sikh political ideology. With very rare exceptions, if you are not wearing a turban. you are not a true Sikh.

Be very careful of trolls, that post selected intrepretaions of baani to support their own misguided viewpoints or to support their own agendas.

 

 

 

 

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28 minutes ago, Cisco_Singh said:

I wouldn't pay too much attention to Sukhvirk especially if he is the same Sukhvirk that spreads misinformation and other manmat views like support for interfaith anand karajs (I have seen someone with the same name arguing in support of interfaith anand karajs).

So according to mr Virk...the only requirment that Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji makes of his Sikhs is " Sabh Sikhan ko Hukam Hai, Guru Maneyo Granth  "

Now a Hukum is literally translated a "command"...Now let me refer you to the 52 Hukums of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj...which you may Google at your own leisure for this particular topic refer to the below hukum :

35. Dastaar binaa nahee rehnaa - Never be without the turban, wear it always.

and also:

38. Sir munae noo kanaiaa nahee daenee. Uos ghar daeve jithae Akal Purukh dee sikhee ha, jo karza-ai naa hovae, bhalae subhaa da hovae, bibaekee atae gyanvaan hovae - Do not given a daughter's hand in marriage to a shaven one. Give her to a household where the Undying divine personification Akal purakh and tenets of Sikhism are respected, to household without debt, of a pleasing nature, which is disciplined and educated.

Sikh Rehat Maryada clearly stipultes that removal of hair is a cardinal sin, "bujajr kureight". To say that the only requirment Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji made of Sikhs is simply " Sabh Sikhan ko Hukam Hai, Guru Maneyo Granth  " Is hypocrisy at it's best,

Guru Gobind Singh Ji actually said, those Sikhs that do not follow rehit are not his Sikhs and he has no love for them:

Guru Gobind Singh's words; Rehit Binaa Neh Sikh Kehavai, Rehit Binaa Dar Chotaa Khhaavai This means that: Without the Rehat (the code of conduct) he should not be called a Sikh. Without the Rehat, the doors are closed in his face.

A further commentary is offered below from Sikharchives:

Commentary:   The Sikh turban is the most easily recognizable symbol of the Sikh Nation. It is explicitly mandated by Guru Gobind Singh.   It is a political device that is meant to give the Sikhs a different appearance.  It symbolizes the Sikhs as a nation and as a separate race and people.  Even though the Sikhs do not have a Sikh Homeland as long as they maintain the Turban they have a virtual homeland.  It must be clearly understood that the Sikh turban is an expression of Sikh political ideology.  It is said that the Sikh Nation rises up in it’s turban. A popular saying about the Sikh turban is : Ja Baghi Ja Badshah” – A person wearing the Sikh Turban is either a fugitive running away from the law or a King.  In order for Guru Gobind Singh’s dream of a Khalsa Nation to be shattered, the enemies of the Sikh Race must induce Sikhs to abandon the turban. The turban is that important and central to Sikh political ideology. With very rare exceptions, if you are not wearing a turban. you are not a true Sikh.

Be very careful of trolls, that post selected intrepretaions of baani to support their own misguided viewpoints or to support their own agendas.

 

 

 

 

Well for someone who recommended to another not to pay me much attention,  you flatter me with the attention you yourself have paid me :) thank you 

 Before I go on may I firstly just bring to your attention..  21. Kisae dee ninda, chugalee, atae eirkhaa nahee karnee - Do not gossip nor slander, or be spiteful to anyone.

The irony... 

So my post was related to what we know... We know guru sahib made additions to Guru Granth Sahib ji including bani of the ninth master. Pointedly he didn't add any of his own verses. So he clearly saw the ggsj as having supreme authority to which he personally in his humility did not feel the need to add hukumnamas? I find this strange that dashmesh pita in all his wisdom left out something which you believe supercedes it's authority.. Are you genuinely suggesting that ggsj is incomplete? 

Now may I,  in the interest of expanding my own  limited knowledge see the sources of your references. I have no personal agenda I just haven't. 

By which  I mean where are the documents of hukumnama with guru sahibs seal.. I personally have seen a hand written hukumnama by guru sahib that is not listed in the 52 you reference. If you can point me in the right direction and show me a picture of said hukumnamas which in this day and age should not be really very difficult.. If you cannot supply evidence then are you not inadvertently saying that guru sahib in all his wisdom and prolific literary output some how forgot to have codified documents  that are now  being attributed to him? 

I've digressed the original post asked a simple question.. I provided a opinion, one which is with intelligent, rational, critical arguments I'm open to modifying.. 

Now just one additional and very interesting  observation I made of your statement is that of of you speaking of 'political Sikh ideology'.. I think your language speaks for itself as to who has the agenda? Political being the operative word 

SSA

 

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Dont get me wrong. This thread is not trying to discourage people from wearing the turban. 

Wearing it is great and something to be be proud of. It is showing allegence to our Gurus. 

But at the same time we should label moneh as not true Sikhs.

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