How important is the turban?

[Big_Tera 285]

Is a person not a true Sikh unless he wears a turban?  What about those who wear one but do bad deeds. But you may have a mona who does good deeds. 

Which one is better?

[jkvlondon 3,044]

it must be important , because it is mentioned so much by dasmesh pita ji , our whole culture centres on the honour of a person being related to their head covering whether chunni or dastar. It is the signifier of sovereignty which also doubles as a political sign of rebellion (mughals were the only ones allowed to wear turbans) and flag of allegiance.

question: if one doesn't study  the lesson or follow the teacher's instruction is one  really a student?

question 2: if one isn't a student then can one realistically claim the title?

Edited June 10 by jkvlondon

[Big_Tera 285]

1 hour ago, jkvlondon said:

it must be important , because it is mentioned so much by dasmesh pita ji , our whole culture centres on the honour of a person being related to their head covering whether chunni or dastar. It is the signifier of sovereignty which also doubles as a political sign of rebellion (mughals were the only ones allowed to wear turbans) and flag of allegiance.

question: if one doesn't study  the lesson or follow the teacher's instruction is one  really a student?

question 2: if one isn't a student then can one realistically claim the title?

Yes but whats is better to have a Sikh who does good deeds or someone who just wears a turban for the sake of it. 

I think there is a big misconception in our culture. ie we immediatley assume a turban wearing Sikh is somehow better. But are there actions not more important. I have come across many turban wearing Sikhs who smoke drink ect. Yet I know many mona who do not and are the complete opposite. So why respect someone just because he has a pagh on. It does not make them a better person inside. 

Edited June 10 by Big_Tera

[Akalifauj 667]

3 hours ago, Big_Tera said:

Is a person not a true Sikh unless he wears a turban?  What about those who wear one but do bad deeds. But you may have a mona who does good deeds. 

Which one is better?

You always have these questions.  But when will you start teaching your mind from Gurbani and then present what you learned here?

The Mona will say don't need dastar and others will say you need it.  What did this question accomplish other than rift more Sikhs apart because they couldn't realize Gurmat.  Stop wasting your time and others.

 

[Not2Cool2Argue 333]

5 hours ago, Big_Tera said:

Is a person not a true Sikh unless he wears a turban?  What about those who wear one but do bad deeds. But you may have a mona who does good deeds. 

Which one is better?

I think a turban does not have much to.do.with spirituality or morality. It has to do.with khalsa and the Sikh panth. If u want to join the army or nation of the khalsa, you will need to follow the rules  and wear the uniform. Remember SGGS ji is the universal guru, and will teach and protect anyone in their sharan.

You can be a sikh, whos only aim is to better himself or you can be a sikh who wants to help all of humanity and the sikh panth in which case you will join the khalsa.

Another note, i am not sure how far a sikh can go spiritually if he has not formally accepted the guru ie taken amrit. Which would mean wearing a dastaar.

Also one should respect a turban wearing sikh, because he is proclaiming to the world that he is proud of his guru and is saying that i belong to the guru and is telling the world, he is committed to following the guru. One has to respect that commitment while a mona person gets all benefits from his guru, asks for things, gets paath done, but is not ready to accept the guru. And if a person wearing a turban is doing bad things, then i think we all have the right to tell them off because they are lying. On one hand they r saying i am committed to the guru while they purposely do the opposite

[Big_Tera 285]

On 10/06/2017 at 11:43 PM, Akalifauj said:

You always have these questions.  But when will you start teaching your mind from Gurbani and then present what you learned here?

The Mona will say don't need dastar and others will say you need it.  What did this question accomplish other than rift more Sikhs apart because they couldn't realize Gurmat.  Stop wasting your time and others.

 

How is this wasting time? Should Sikhs just follow anything without questioning it. That is similar to the muslim ideology.

 

[Kira 1,042]

So is the crux of your question just "does having Kesh make you a better person" ?

[Big_Tera 285]

8 minutes ago, Kira said:

So is the crux of your question just "does having Kesh make you a better person" ?

My question is in the first post. 

[Kira 1,042]

15 minutes ago, Big_Tera said:

My question is in the first post. 

you mention Monas. meaning those who don't keep kesh. Some Mona wear turbans too so that's why im actually confused.

[MisterrSingh 2,757]

When I was growing up, moneh were magnanimous enough to put up their hands and say, "Y'know, I just can't deal with growing kesh and the daily responsibility of tying a dastaar. It's my fault, nobody else. The problem lies within me." At least they were honest back then.

Nowadays, as with most things, the desire to subvert perfectly valid norms and practices in the pursuit of discovering the so-called truth that's been kept from society thanks to some vague overarching conspiracy of suppression and deception, means shifting responsibility and blame for the individual's defects onto those very norms and values that were given to us solely for our benefit. Now, these people wish to chip away at the integrity of scripture to find a loophole or flimsily worded justification that will enable, or, best of all, approve of their personal life choices. 

I've long suspected future generations of Sikhs will graduate to openly disparaging certain Sikh teachings because they struggle to adhere to those values. The Dasam Granth issue was a precursor of what's yet to come. The final issue that will tear apart Sikhs will be the 5Ks / Baisakhi issue, i.e. huge numbers of followers will openly turn their back on the requirement of kesh and the need to take amrit. That's going to be the final nail in the coffin. It will be relegated to a small devout minority of fundamentalists who'll eventually be sidelined as an extreme or orthodox sect. Mainstream Sikhi will be redrawn as a soft, pacifist, Jain-esque faith requiring the minimum of dedication and adherence. That's the plan, believe me.

Questioning narratives and beliefs is incredibly important. Sikhs wouldn't exist if one particular individual who emerged in 1469 hadn't questioned the fundamentals of their existence and society in general. Yet, that spirit of discovery is being used to denigrate and undermine the very fabric of our beliefs. It's happening all over the world with all manner of philosophies and systems. "This is too difficult, therefore it must be wrong, because I can't possibly be expected to chisel away at improving myself thereby arriving at a place where I meet these conditions." It's this same attitude that has gradually destroyed the integrity of those things that are conducive to a successful and healthy society.

Saying that, the other side of the argument also holds water. It's controversial and not many will want to hear it: it's too easy to appear as a devout Sikh. There's no threshold of quality, or measurement of discerning the content of character behind the external appearance. Literally anyone, even the vilest of humans, can dress up as a Sikh. 

Edited June 12 by MisterrSingh

[Big_Tera 285]

6 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

When I was growing up, moneh were magnanimous enough to put up their hands and say, "Y'know, I just can't deal with growing kesh and the daily responsibility of tying a dastaar. It's my fault, nobody else. The problem lies within me." At least they were honest back then.

Nowadays, as with most things, the desire to subvert perfectly valid norms and practices in the pursuit of discovering the so-called truth that's been kept from society thanks to some vague overarching conspiracy of suppression and deception, means shifting responsibility and blame for the individual's defects onto those very norms and values that were given to us solely for our benefit. Now, these people wish to chip away at the integrity of scripture to find a loophole or flimsily worded justification that will enable, or, best of all, approve of their personal life choices. 

I've long suspected future generations of Sikhs will graduate to openly disparaging certain Sikh teachings because they struggle to adhere to those values. The Dasam Granth issue was a precursor of what's yet to come. The final issue that will tear apart Sikhs will be the 5Ks / Baisakhi issue, i.e. huge numbers of followers will openly turn their back on the requirement of kesh and the need to take amrit. That's going to be the final nail in the coffin. It will be relegated to a small devout minority of fundamentalists who'll eventually be sidelined as an extreme or orthodox sect. Mainstream Sikhi will be redrawn as a soft, pacifist, Jain-esque faith requiring the minimum of dedication and adherence. That's the plan, believe me.

Questioning narratives and beliefs is incredibly important. Sikhs wouldn't exist if one particular individual who emerged in 1469 hadn't questioned the fundamentals of their existence and society in general. Yet, that spirit of discovery is being used to denigrate and undermine the very fabric of our beliefs. It's happening all over the world with all manner of philosophies and systems. "This is too difficult, therefore it must be wrong, because I can't possibly be expected to chisel away at improving myself thereby arriving at a place where I meet these conditions." It's this same attitude that has gradually destroyed the integrity of those things that are conducive to a successful and healthy society.

Saying that, the other side of the argument also holds water. It's controversial and not many will want to hear it: it's too easy to appear as a devout Sikh. There's no threshold of quality, or measurement of discerning the content of character behind the external appearance. Literally anyone, even the vilest of humans, can dress up as a Sikh. 

If the reason we wear turban is because to stand up to the mughals. Also is the turban not an arabic origin tradition? 

Why copy the arabs. Im not against the turban or Growing of the hair. But Im saying why cant somone be considered a true Sikh without the turban. 

From what I understand the turban is a cloth used to cover the long hair aw it would look odd to have long hair without a covering of some sort. 

My other issue is the arrogance that Some Sikhs have just because they wear a turban and think they are better even though they drink and eat meat ect. 

[MisterrSingh 2,757]

40 minutes ago, Big_Tera said:

If the reason we wear turban is because to stand up to the mughals. Also is the turban not an arabic origin tradition? 

Why copy the arabs. Im not against the turban or Growing of the hair. But Im saying why cant somone be considered a true Sikh without the turban. 

From what I understand the turban is a cloth used to cover the long hair aw it would look odd to have long hair without a covering of some sort. 

You can try to rationalise it however you wish, but thankfully it's a choice not a compulsion. If you aren't feeling it, then nobody is forcing you to do anything.

 

40 minutes ago, Big_Tera said:

My other issue is the arrogance that Some Sikhs have just because they wear a turban and think they are better even though they drink and eat meat ect. 

How does that affect your personal relationship with God, or even your level of adherence?

Edited June 12 by MisterrSingh

[jkvlondon 3,044]

38 minutes ago, Big_Tera said:

If the reason we wear turban is because to stand up to the mughals. Also is the turban not an arabic origin tradition? 

Why copy the arabs. Im not against the turban or Growing of the hair. But Im sltural thingaying why cant somone be considered a true Sikh without the turban. 

From what I understand the turban is a cloth used to cover the long hair aw it would look odd to have long hair without a covering of some sort. 

My other issue is the arrogance that Some Sikhs have just because they wear a turban and think they are better even though they drink and eat meat ect. 

no Arabs cannot claim it because it is a widespread cultural thing :Africans, Jews , early Christians, Chinese, Hindus wore turbans , well before they did.

first hukham was to live in the roop Waheguru ji gave us . 

to keep our kesh clean and in order - never to allow them to stay tangled like yogis and also keep the head covered with a chunni or dastar as our sir da sain is ever alive/ immortal and we are in Guru ji's presence always .

yes it  was a sign of rebellion but also humbleness ...the whole is more than the sum of the parts. 

It seems Bro the second is your MAIN point : If you find something objectionable first consider why it hurts you, perhaps deep down you know what the dastar is supposed to signify and how these people bring it into disrepute. Instead of you being angry at the requirement of a dastar by Guru ji, it would make sense to change the warped attitudes of the wearers .  Maybe one day you will  feel differently

 

 

 

 

[Sukhvirk1976 87]

On 2017-6-10 at 11:43 PM, Akalifauj said:

You always have these questions.  But when will you start teaching your mind from Gurbani and then present what you learned here?

The Mona will say don't need dastar and others will say you need it.  What did this question accomplish other than rift more Sikhs apart because they couldn't realize Gurmat.  Stop wasting your time and others.

 

To be khalsa you undoubtedly need to fully accept the responsibilities of upholding the maryada that comes with it.. But to be a Sikh dastaar is not a requirement... 

The question was quite simple.. To paraphrase 'Is one a Sikh if one doesn't have a dastaar'? I would say the resounding answer is yes they can be.. 

Sabh Sikhan ko Hukam Hai, Guru Maneyo Granth 

Dashmesh pita makes that the only requirement.. We should not conflate the term Sikh with khalsa 

[Akalifauj 667]

15 hours ago, Big_Tera said:

How is this wasting time? Should Sikhs just follow anything without questioning it. That is similar to the muslim ideology.

 

Gurbani speaks on the dastar.  Why are you scared to ask Guru Sahib?  Guru Sahib does not bite.  Since you have many questions like this.  It shows you are lazy to read Gurbani and/or you could careless what Guru sahib says and need some entertainment in life and come on forums to get this entertainment.  The wisdom from Gurbani is limitless.  Yet you choose to ask these questions to limited beings on forums who you don't know and very well could be just lazy as you.  A Sikh will learn from his Guru and present the teachings.  Today you don't even need to read every Ang of Gurbani.  You can type in key words into Gurbani search engines and find majority of the Gurbani written on dastar.  Instead of doing this you act like a whiney little school girl.....why can't I ask questions to manmukhs.......I want manmukh answers and no answer from the Guru.....leave me alone....waaaah waaah......

Edited June 13 by Akalifauj

[Big_Tera 285]

11 hours ago, Akalifauj said:

Gurbani speaks on the dastar.  Why are you scared to ask Guru Sahib?  Guru Sahib does not bite.  Since you have many questions like this.  It shows you are lazy to read Gurbani and/or you could careless what Guru sahib says and need some entertainment in life and come on forums to get this entertainment.  The wisdom from Gurbani is limitless.  Yet you choose to ask these questions to limited beings on forums who you don't know and very well could be just lazy as you.  A Sikh will learn from his Guru and present the teachings.  Today you don't even need to read every Ang of Gurbani.  You can type in key words into Gurbani search engines and find majority of the Gurbani written on dastar.  Instead of doing this you act like a whiney little school girl.....why can't I ask questions to manmukhs.......I want manmukh answers and no answer from the Guru.....leave me alone....waaaah waaah......

Looks like you want to turn this debate into a gutter and trash talk like you are use to doing. This must be a sign of your mentality resorting to school yard name calling. I wont bother stooping to your low level. This is a forum with many people of knowledge.

[Big_Tera 285]

17 hours ago, Sukhvirk1976 said:

To be khalsa you undoubtedly need to fully accept the responsibilities of upholding the maryada that comes with it.. But to be a Sikh dastaar is not a requirement... 

The question was quite simple.. To paraphrase 'Is one a Sikh if one doesn't have a dastaar'? I would say the resounding answer is yes they can be.. 

Sabh Sikhan ko Hukam Hai, Guru Maneyo Granth 

 

Dashmesh pita makes that the only requirement.. We should not conflate the term Sikh with khalsa 

Thanks that was a straighforward answer I was looking for. 

[Cisco_Singh 530]

1 hour ago, Big_Tera said:

Thanks that was a straighforward answer I was looking for. 

I wouldn't pay too much attention to Sukhvirk especially if he is the same Sukhvirk that spreads misinformation and other manmat views like support for interfaith anand karajs (I have seen someone with the same name arguing in support of interfaith anand karajs).

So according to mr Virk...the only requirment that Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji makes of his Sikhs is " Sabh Sikhan ko Hukam Hai, Guru Maneyo Granth  "

Now a Hukum is literally translated a "command"...Now let me refer you to the 52 Hukums of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj...which you may Google at your own leisure for this particular topic refer to the below hukum :

35. Dastaar binaa nahee rehnaa - Never be without the turban, wear it always.

and also:

38. Sir munae noo kanaiaa nahee daenee. Uos ghar daeve jithae Akal Purukh dee sikhee ha, jo karza-ai naa hovae, bhalae subhaa da hovae, bibaekee atae gyanvaan hovae - Do not given a daughter's hand in marriage to a shaven one. Give her to a household where the Undying divine personification Akal purakh and tenets of Sikhism are respected, to household without debt, of a pleasing nature, which is disciplined and educated.

Sikh Rehat Maryada clearly stipultes that removal of hair is a cardinal sin, "bujajr kureight". To say that the only requirment Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji made of Sikhs is simply " Sabh Sikhan ko Hukam Hai, Guru Maneyo Granth  " Is hypocrisy at it's best,

Guru Gobind Singh Ji actually said, those Sikhs that do not follow rehit are not his Sikhs and he has no love for them:

Guru Gobind Singh's words; Rehit Binaa Neh Sikh Kehavai, Rehit Binaa Dar Chotaa Khhaavai This means that: Without the Rehat (the code of conduct) he should not be called a Sikh. Without the Rehat, the doors are closed in his face.

A further commentary is offered below from Sikharchives:

Commentary:   The Sikh turban is the most easily recognizable symbol of the Sikh Nation. It is explicitly mandated by Guru Gobind Singh.   It is a political device that is meant to give the Sikhs a different appearance.  It symbolizes the Sikhs as a nation and as a separate race and people.  Even though the Sikhs do not have a Sikh Homeland as long as they maintain the Turban they have a virtual homeland.  It must be clearly understood that the Sikh turban is an expression of Sikh political ideology.  It is said that the Sikh Nation rises up in it’s turban. A popular saying about the Sikh turban is : Ja Baghi Ja Badshah” – A person wearing the Sikh Turban is either a fugitive running away from the law or a King.  In order for Guru Gobind Singh’s dream of a Khalsa Nation to be shattered, the enemies of the Sikh Race must induce Sikhs to abandon the turban. The turban is that important and central to Sikh political ideology. With very rare exceptions, if you are not wearing a turban. you are not a true Sikh.

Be very careful of trolls, that post selected intrepretaions of baani to support their own misguided viewpoints or to support their own agendas.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 13 by Cisco_Singh

[Sukhvirk1976 87]

28 minutes ago, Cisco_Singh said:

I wouldn't pay too much attention to Sukhvirk especially if he is the same Sukhvirk that spreads misinformation and other manmat views like support for interfaith anand karajs (I have seen someone with the same name arguing in support of interfaith anand karajs).

So according to mr Virk...the only requirment that Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji makes of his Sikhs is " Sabh Sikhan ko Hukam Hai, Guru Maneyo Granth  "

Now a Hukum is literally translated a "command"...Now let me refer you to the 52 Hukums of Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj...which you may Google at your own leisure for this particular topic refer to the below hukum :

35. Dastaar binaa nahee rehnaa - Never be without the turban, wear it always.

and also:

38. Sir munae noo kanaiaa nahee daenee. Uos ghar daeve jithae Akal Purukh dee sikhee ha, jo karza-ai naa hovae, bhalae subhaa da hovae, bibaekee atae gyanvaan hovae - Do not given a daughter's hand in marriage to a shaven one. Give her to a household where the Undying divine personification Akal purakh and tenets of Sikhism are respected, to household without debt, of a pleasing nature, which is disciplined and educated.

Sikh Rehat Maryada clearly stipultes that removal of hair is a cardinal sin, "bujajr kureight". To say that the only requirment Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji made of Sikhs is simply " Sabh Sikhan ko Hukam Hai, Guru Maneyo Granth  " Is hypocrisy at it's best,

Guru Gobind Singh Ji actually said, those Sikhs that do not follow rehit are not his Sikhs and he has no love for them:

Guru Gobind Singh's words; Rehit Binaa Neh Sikh Kehavai, Rehit Binaa Dar Chotaa Khhaavai This means that: Without the Rehat (the code of conduct) he should not be called a Sikh. Without the Rehat, the doors are closed in his face.

A further commentary is offered below from Sikharchives:

Commentary:   The Sikh turban is the most easily recognizable symbol of the Sikh Nation. It is explicitly mandated by Guru Gobind Singh.   It is a political device that is meant to give the Sikhs a different appearance.  It symbolizes the Sikhs as a nation and as a separate race and people.  Even though the Sikhs do not have a Sikh Homeland as long as they maintain the Turban they have a virtual homeland.  It must be clearly understood that the Sikh turban is an expression of Sikh political ideology.  It is said that the Sikh Nation rises up in it’s turban. A popular saying about the Sikh turban is : Ja Baghi Ja Badshah” – A person wearing the Sikh Turban is either a fugitive running away from the law or a King.  In order for Guru Gobind Singh’s dream of a Khalsa Nation to be shattered, the enemies of the Sikh Race must induce Sikhs to abandon the turban. The turban is that important and central to Sikh political ideology. With very rare exceptions, if you are not wearing a turban. you are not a true Sikh.

Be very careful of trolls, that post selected intrepretaions of baani to support their own misguided viewpoints or to support their own agendas.

 

 

 

 

Well for someone who recommended to another not to pay me much attention,  you flatter me with the attention you yourself have paid me thank you 

 Before I go on may I firstly just bring to your attention..  21. Kisae dee ninda, chugalee, atae eirkhaa nahee karnee - Do not gossip nor slander, or be spiteful to anyone.

The irony... 

So my post was related to what we know... We know guru sahib made additions to Guru Granth Sahib ji including bani of the ninth master. Pointedly he didn't add any of his own verses. So he clearly saw the ggsj as having supreme authority to which he personally in his humility did not feel the need to add hukumnamas? I find this strange that dashmesh pita in all his wisdom left out something which you believe supercedes it's authority.. Are you genuinely suggesting that ggsj is incomplete? 

Now may I,  in the interest of expanding my own  limited knowledge see the sources of your references. I have no personal agenda I just haven't. 

By which  I mean where are the documents of hukumnama with guru sahibs seal.. I personally have seen a hand written hukumnama by guru sahib that is not listed in the 52 you reference. If you can point me in the right direction and show me a picture of said hukumnamas which in this day and age should not be really very difficult.. If you cannot supply evidence then are you not inadvertently saying that guru sahib in all his wisdom and prolific literary output some how forgot to have codified documents  that are now  being attributed to him? 

I've digressed the original post asked a simple question.. I provided a opinion, one which is with intelligent, rational, critical arguments I'm open to modifying.. 

Now just one additional and very interesting  observation I made of your statement is that of of you speaking of 'political Sikh ideology'.. I think your language speaks for itself as to who has the agenda? Political being the operative word 

SSA

 

[Big_Tera 285]

Dont get me wrong. This thread is not trying to discourage people from wearing the turban. 

Wearing it is great and something to be be proud of. It is showing allegence to our Gurus. 

But at the same time we should label moneh as not true Sikhs.

[BhForce 364]

On 6/11/2017 at 0:16 AM, Big_Tera said:

Is a person not a true Sikh unless he wears a turban?  What about those who wear one but do bad deeds. But you may have a mona who does good deeds. 

Which one is better?

First of all, if you were alive at the time of the 10th Guru, and Guru Sahib told you (in words) to keep your hair (or to do anything else), would you do so? I.e., do you accept or deny the authority of Guru Sahib? If you don't accept the authority of Guru Ji, there's no point in further discussion.

Secondly, in order to get a frame of reference, are you only doubting the turban?

Or are you doubting the injunction to keep sabat surat (complete form, including hair)?

Once we know the answers to these questions, we can move forward on a dialogue.

[Akalifauj 667]

1 hour ago, Big_Tera said:

Dont get me wrong. This thread is not trying to discourage people from wearing the turban. 

Wearing it is great and something to be be proud of. It is showing allegence to our Gurus. 

But at the same time we should label moneh as not true Sikhs.

This coward is trying to split Sikhs.  Must be dolly101 moni brother in law.  You coward, can't even read Gurbani and want to speak about Sikhi topics just so you can divide Sikhs.  

Every Sikh is learning from the Guru.  People without Sikh saroop will accept their wrong, Sikhs with lust problems will accept their mistakes and Sikhs with anger issues will accept their mistakes and so on. Sikhs will keep progressing and cowards like you will receive the proper punishment for your behavior.  

[Sukhvirk1976 87]

6 minutes ago, BhForce said:

First of all, if you were alive at the time of the 10th Guru, and Guru Sahib told you (in words) to keep your hair (or to do anything else), would you do so? I.e., do you accept or deny the authority of Guru Sahib? If you don't accept the authority of Guru Ji, there's no point in further discussion.

Secondly, in order to get a frame of reference, are you only doubting the turban?

Or are you doubting the injunction to keep sabat surat (complete form, including hair)?

Once we know the answers to these questions, we can move forward on a dialogue.

I absolutely 100% agree with you. As I have said I haven't been shown that dashmesh pita unequivocally said the things you are attributing to him.. But I have limited knowledge and welcome any evidence of supporting documents that do support said statements.. I want to agree with you brother just show me the way.. I don't want to believe in hearsay we have as Sikhs been taught to hold the highest standards of truth and rationality.. The primary characteristic of onkaar is truth.. So when it comes to temporal historical assertions the burden of evidence should be quite easy.. Before we even explore the spiritual realm let us unequivocally accept what we know on what basis we have formed our opinions.. 

It really shouldn't be that hard for those amongst us who have performed khoj satisfied the burden of evidence to be brave enough to assert in Guru sahibs name what he said, what he wrote.. As a Sikh I am scared of attributing something to Guru sahib for which I have no evidence.. It's just hearsay otherwise.. Let's not forget about baba ram rai who changed just one word and was excommunicated.. 

Nevermind what some people here do on some threads.. E.g. Let's just for one moment accept that the hukumnama referenced above.. No. 38. Sir munae noo kanaiaa nahee daenee. Uos ghar daeve jithae Akal Purukh dee sikhee ha, jo karza-ai naa hovae, bhalae subhaa da hovae, bibaekee atae gyanvaan hovae - Do not given a daughter's hand in marriage to a shaven one. Give her to a household where the Undying divine personification Akal purakh and tenets of Sikhism are respected, to household without debt, of a pleasing nature, which is disciplined and educated

This statement attributed to Guru gobind Singh Ji as a hukumnama is sometimes articulated and translated as a Sikh should not give his daughter to a Muslim.. But it doesn't mention Muslim.. It only says one who has uncut hair. Going on it also talks about debt, that is in the same 'hukumnama' so does that mean someone with a mortgage, what about if you have karza on a car loan, or on the flip side earning karza on money in the bank 

[Sukhvirk1976 87]

9 minutes ago, Akalifauj said:

This coward is trying to split Sikhs.  Must be dolly101 moni brother in law.  You coward, can't even read Gurbani and want to speak about Sikhi topics just so you can divide Sikhs.  

Every Sikh is learning from the Guru.  People without Sikh saroop will accept their wrong, Sikhs with lust problems will accept their mistakes and Sikhs with anger issues will accept their mistakes and so on. Sikhs will keep progressing and cowards like you will receive the proper punishment for your behavior.  

Who is the lion and who is coward?

Nirbhau, nirvair .. There is no punishment.. Not realising the sweet nectar of truth is no punishment it's a self-inflicted prison called ignorance 

Edited June 14 by Sukhvirk1976
Spelling

[Big_Tera 285]

On 14/06/2017 at 1:22 AM, Akalifauj said:

This coward is trying to split Sikhs.  Must be dolly101 moni brother in law.  You coward, can't even read Gurbani and want to speak about Sikhi topics just so you can divide Sikhs.  

Every Sikh is learning from the Guru.  People without Sikh saroop will accept their wrong, Sikhs with lust problems will accept their mistakes and Sikhs with anger issues will accept their mistakes and so on. Sikhs will keep progressing and cowards like you will receive the proper punishment for your behavior.  

lol

I'm the one 'trying to split Sikhs'.

If you had half a brain you would realise that your the one who is dividing Sikhs. You are saying non dastaar wearers are not even 'Sikhs'. Your putting people into two seperate camps by saying this and thus dividing us all and creating a wedge and unharmony amongst Sikhs.

I guess that is why they say the measure of stupidity is a bottomless pit.

 

Edited June 16 by Big_Tera