13Mirch

Sant Singh Khalsa's Errors

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The SGPC, as the trendsetter in the Sikh world, has ratified Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa's transliterations of Gurbani which are highly erroneous and lacking the spirit of the original Gurmukhi. Unfortunately, since the green light from the Committee, one finds Khalsa's works all over the internet and in popular literature. For those interested in utilizing proper transliterations, I suggest perusing the Mahan Kosh and older Punjab simplifications which are still available even to this day. Below I present the proper transliteration of a Shabad which is usually employed by Islamic apologia to disparage the Sikh faith. Please note that Khalsa's erroneous transliteration was also used by Basics of Sikhi whilst they were debating whether Guru Nanak Dev Ji asks Muslims to be Muslims as per their own coda or as per Gurmat.

'Salok, Mahalla 1

To call yourself a Muslim is difficult... (here the original Gurmukhi reads 'Je hoye' i.e. if one is a Muslim- an individual who has submitted to Sri Akal Purakh) only then can you call yourself a Muslim.

(In the next line, Khalsa has erroneously added in 'Prophet' whereas the original Gurmukhi has no mention of any preceptor:)

To be a true Muslim, accept the primal "deen" (faith- by adding primal it means the ever-existent and unsullied truth as elaborated upon in the mool-mantar) as being sweet. Akin to a maskal (a file) scarping away rust, distribute your possessions among the needy.

(Here Khalsa adds in 'Muhammad.'It is crucial to note that in the Bachittra-Natak 'Muhammad' is rendered 'Mahudin' whereas the term here is 'Muhanni.')

Becoming a Muslim thus, tread via the edicts of deen and all delusions of life and death will be effaced.

Accepting the Doer's will and surrendering to the Creator, discard your ego.

Only then will your become merciful to one and all; only then can you call yourself a true Muslim.'

-ASGGS, Ang. 141.

A similar sentiment is again echoed, by the first Guru, on the same ang:

'(In Islam) there are 5 prayers performed at 5 times having 5 nomenclatures each.

(Vis-a-vis Gurmat the five prayers are) First prayer is of truth, the second of integrity in thought and deed, the third is of wishing prosperity upon all (and not just upon the Dar-al-Islam).

The fourth is of possessing clean motives and the fifth is of praise (i.e. praise of Vaheguru).

With these particular 5 prayers (as elaborated upon by the Guru), utter the confession of faith, good deeds and way of living; then you are a true Muslim.

Oh Nanak, the false (who do not accept these figurative prayers) obtain falsehood.'

-Ibid.

The structure of this particular Shabad is a 'Pauri.' For a proper understanding of the idea conveyed in a 'Pauri,' the entire passage has to be read before passing any judgement (we do not expect Muslims to know this). The conclusive Shabad, by Guru Ramdass, summarizes the 'Pauri's' main concepts:

'If an individual forsakes aggrandizement, anger, falsehood and slander- if they discard maya and efface their "I-ness."

If they discard their lust and hypersexuality- then even whilst residing in the shade of illusion they can obtain the blemishless Lord.

If they forsake hubris and attachment to the spouse and progeny; if they abandon the thirst for worldly possessions- if they submerge their consciousness into the giver of bliss.

Says Nanak, the True One will reside in that individual's mind. Through the true Shabad, they merge into the name eternal.'

Edited by 13Mirch
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I mentioned this a few months ago. I was criticised for it. 

I'm not at all suggesting there were any vested interests on his part, but his transliterations are uninspiring, dry, and basic. Someone with a greater appreciation for the English language would've been preferable.

Edited by MisterrSingh
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30 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

I mentioned this a few months ago. I was criticised for it. 

I'm not at all suggesting there were any vested interests on his part, but his transliterations are uninspiring, dry, and basic. Someone with a greater appreciation for the English language would've been preferable.

Let me guess, the PC Brigade latched onto you as well.

 

I believe S. Kapur Singh would have been well informed to deal with the issue.

Edited by 13Mirch
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32 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

I mentioned this a few months ago. I was criticised for it. 

I'm not at all suggesting there were any vested interests on his part, but his transliterations are uninspiring, dry, and basic. Someone with a greater appreciation for the English language would've been preferable.

Brace yourself; the anti-Islam accusations are just around the corner. 

How Sant Singh ever got the terms "Prophet" and "Muhammad" into the mix beats me.

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10 minutes ago, 13Mirch said:

Let me guess, the PC Brigade latched onto you as well.

 

I believe S. Kapur Singh would have been well informed to deal with the issue.

I have no idea about the politics behind it, or the factions in play, lol. I'm not a scholar in any sense, but I have a layman's appreciation for the poetry of the English language, and I was disappointed when I read the Sant Singh transliteration of Japji Sahib. English, in the hands of a master, is a beautiful language. Ideally we should study the original Gurmukhi, but for purposes of education and the proliferation of Sikh philosophy in the West, English is essential.

Edited by MisterrSingh

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1 hour ago, MisterrSingh said:

I have no idea about the politics behind it, or the factions in play, lol. I'm not a scholar in any sense, but I have a layman's appreciation for the poetry of the English language, and I was disappointed when I read the Sant Singh transliteration of Japji Sahib. English, in the hands of a master, is a beautiful language. Ideally we should study the original Gurmukhi, but for purposes of education and the proliferation of Sikh philosophy in the West, English is essential.

My personal belief is that ISS (Chandigarh) should be well up to the task.

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Can someone provide a link to the sgpc translations.  This will help sangat have easy access to translations that are better.

3ho have been spreading sant Singh khalsa translations like wild fire and many punjabis latched on blindly.  Sant Singh khalsa has made many errors and at times it seems the error was done on purpose.  I have heard yogi bhajan had a hand in his translations as well and this will explain the deception in the translations by endorsing Kundalini yoga.

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1 hour ago, Akalifauj said:

Can someone provide a link to the sgpc translations.  This will help sangat have easy access to translations that are better.

3ho have been spreading sant Singh khalsa translations like wild fire and many punjabis latched on blindly.  Sant Singh khalsa has made many errors and at times it seems the error was done on purpose.  I have heard yogi bhajan had a hand in his translations as well and this will explain the deception in the translations by endorsing Kundalini yoga.

SGPC ratified them in some blind moment.

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4 minutes ago, 13Mirch said:

SGPC ratified them in some blind moment.

no they ratified it because they don't give one hoot about sikhi this is around the same time SGPC was printing RSS altered sikh history books for distribution which called Guru Teg Bahadur a jewel thief, and other anti-Guru slurs 

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Basics of Sikhi should take up the task of producing a better English version if possible.

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52 minutes ago, singhbj singh said:

Basics of Sikhi should take up the task of producing a better English version if possible.

With all due respect for the knowledge and sharda of the BoS people, this requires a collaborative effort involving - at minimum - a professor of the English language (a knowledge of literary conventions is a bonus) and the necessary input from religious scholars to ensure accuracy. As much as it pains me to say this, it's clear the SGPC are compromised, so seeking guidance or permission from them on such matters is a waste of time.

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23 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

With all due respect for the knowledge and sharda of the BoS people, this requires a collaborative effort involving - at minimum - a professor of the English language (a knowledge of literary conventions is a bonus) and the necessary input from religious scholars to ensure accuracy. As much as it pains me to say this, it's clear the SGPC are compromised, so seeking guidance or permission from them on such matters is a waste of time.

I know but BOS is the best bet !

Akj, Bibekis, Tapoban, Khalis foundation, SHARE Charity UK should have done it but didnot.

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17 minutes ago, singhbj singh said:

I know but BOS is the best bet !

Akj, Bibekis, Tapoban, Khalis foundation, SHARE Charity UK should have done it but didnot.

Sadly the group that knows English the best in our Panth are the missionary Jatha, that is how they can spread more easily in the diaspora then even Guru-made Jathas.

If you have an idea, it's usually best if you do it yourself, then to depend on other people, whether that be doing shoe,(Jor-De-A), Seva all by yourself or picking-up trash at a Gurdwara,(the reason I picked these 2 Sevas is because these are the Sevas people are least likely to do, and shy away from), to making English translations.

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31 minutes ago, Jacfsing2 said:

Sadly the group that knows English the best in our Panth are the missionary Jatha, that is how they can spread more easily in the diaspora then even Guru-made Jathas.

If you have an idea, it's usually best if you do it yourself, then to depend on other people, whether that be doing shoe,(Jor-De-A), Seva all by yourself or picking-up trash at a Gurdwara,(the reason I picked these 2 Sevas is because these are the Sevas people are least likely to do, and shy away from), to making English translations.

If you ask me all jathas should have their version online so that readers can compare just like how it is in Srigranth.org

Sgpc should fund & host that platform.

Viewers can choose whether they wanna read missionary, taksali, nihang, akj etc version from options.

Hathi Seva is good but some have to abide by

"Akli sahib seviye" 

too !

Edited by singhbj singh

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36 minutes ago, Jacfsing2 said:

Sadly the group that knows English the best in our Panth are the missionary Jatha, that is how they can spread more easily in the diaspora then even Guru-made Jathas.

If you have an idea, it's usually best if you do it yourself, then to depend on other people, whether that be doing shoe,(Jor-De-A), Seva all by yourself or picking-up trash at a Gurdwara,(the reason I picked these 2 Sevas is because these are the Sevas people are least likely to do, and shy away from), to making English translations.

why can it not be a collaborative effort out here as then we will be able to pick more brains , the last things I want to see is no change, or changes done by one group then politics   kick in and it gets discarded .

Sant singh just took the earlier version by Manmohan SIngh and jigged a little to get his agenda in and then presented it as his work ...I'm sure we can do an electronic head to head to highlight the alterations and consult people such as Giani Sher Singh ji, Giani Kulwant Singh ji for the subtle knowledge and then refine the translations

People living in english speaking nations especially those born and bred here will have a better grip on the correct English tone to use to appeal to a modern sophisticated international audience, perhaps also hypertexting it to other language modules as they are developed and crosschecked

Edited by jkvlondon
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3 minutes ago, singhbj singh said:

If you ask me all jathas should have their version online so that readers can compare just like how it is in Srigranth.org

Sgpc should fund & host that platform.

Viewers can choose whether they wanna read missionary, taksali, nihang, akj etc version from options.

Hathi Seva is good but some have to abide by

"Akli sahib seviye" 

too !

sorry no.

Increasingly you are sounding like someone who doesn't care about panthic unity. 

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Thanks for highlighting this.

9 hours ago, 13Mirch said:

Please note that Khalsa's erroneous transliteration was also used by Basics of Sikhi whilst they were debating whether Guru Nanak Dev Ji asks Muslims to be Muslims as per their own coda or as per Gurmat

Wow, that really happened? What tack did BoS take? And do you have a link to it?

One thing that concerns me is whether our preachers in the future will just be reading English translations with stuff mixed in from the mind of the translator (not there in the text), and they'll be taking theological positions based on those English translations! 

I understand that the BoS can't quote Gurmukhi to non-Punjabis, but there's no reason that they have to quote Sant Singh Khalsa's translations. They can understand the Punjabi commentaries (teekas), and then prepare their own English versions before talking with the Muslims.

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48 minutes ago, singhbj singh said:

If you ask me all jathas should have their version online so that readers can compare just like how it is in Srigranth.org

Sgpc should fund & host that platform.

Viewers can choose whether they wanna read missionary, taksali, nihang, akj etc version from options.

Hathi Seva is good but some have to abide by

"Akli sahib seviye" 

too !

SriGranth is good because it's not Jatha-based. 90% of all Sikhs in the diaspora, Amritdhari or not, will be turned-off by Jathas. Missionaries are smart about this point as by presenting them to be just everyday Sikhs doing Seva. Also the among the10% of the Jatha-listeners, at least 50% are irrational people, are the ones who are all-out one Jatha. Nobody learns anything. Only someone who understands that the average Sikh in the west only sees themselves as Sikhs.

It's best to think practically, and understand, that most Sikhs want a clear answer, not hundereds of vague answers.

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22 minutes ago, Jacfsing2 said:

SriGranth is good because it's not Jatha-based. 90% of all Sikhs in the diaspora, Amritdhari or not, will be turned-off by Jathas. Missionaries are smart about this point as by presenting them to be just everyday Sikhs doing Seva. Also the among the10% of the Jatha-listeners, at least 50% are irrational people, are the ones who are all-out one Jatha. Nobody learns anything. Only someone who understands that the average Sikh in the west only sees themselves as Sikhs.

It's best to think practically, and understand, that most Sikhs want a clear answer, not hundereds of vague answers.

funny thing is the disingenious Sant SIngh has entitled  his work as Khalsa concensus translation.

I  don't remember consultations happening do you? anybody talk to Taksal? anybody  talk to Nirmaley? anybody talk to Nihang jathey? 
 

Such liars

here is a list of all translations and brief history/description

https://www.sikhs.org/english/english.htm

Edited by jkvlondon

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3 hours ago, Jacfsing2 said:

SriGranth is good because it's not Jatha-based. 90% of all Sikhs in the diaspora, Amritdhari or not, will be turned-off by Jathas. Missionaries are smart about this point as by presenting them to be just everyday Sikhs doing Seva. Also the among the10% of the Jatha-listeners, at least 50% are irrational people, are the ones who are all-out one Jatha. Nobody learns anything. Only someone who understands that the average Sikh in the west only sees themselves as Sikhs.

It's best to think practically, and understand, that most Sikhs want a clear answer, not hundereds of vague answers.

Comparative studies or translations on a single platform is a boon.

It is easy to read multiple versions of Gurbani translations at Srigranth.

So let's have various Jatha versions too.

 

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7 minutes ago, singhbj singh said:

So let's have various Jatha versions too.

Nonsense. You're trolling.

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15 minutes ago, singhbj singh said:

So let's have various Jatha versions too.

We are talking about our Guru here, not some fan-clubs coming together and making-up their own whatever they do. You may be part of fan club, and you may think fan clubs are great, but Guru Sahib is not in that world of disunity.

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35 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

Nonsense. You're trolling.

All jathas have their punjabi versions so they just have to find someone to translate in simple English.

They can upload both English & Punjabi versions on their sites.

Later through consensus or diktat, bring their work on a common platform for Sangat's benefit.

Edited by singhbj singh

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14 hours ago, Jacfsing2 said:

SriGranth is good because it's not Jatha-based. 90% of all Sikhs in the diaspora, Amritdhari or not, will be turned-off by Jathas. Missionaries are smart about this point as by presenting them to be just everyday Sikhs doing Seva. Also the among the10% of the Jatha-listeners, at least 50% are irrational people, are the ones who are all-out one Jatha. Nobody learns anything. Only someone who understands that the average Sikh in the west only sees themselves as Sikhs.

It's best to think practically, and understand, that most Sikhs want a clear answer, not hundereds of vague answers.

Sri Granth also has some of the same errors; they rely on both Sant Singh and Manmohan Singh's works. 

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