Jump to content

Recommended Posts

2 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

I am no apologist. 

But like I said before, it is a much more nuanced game.

Once you understand the game that is being played, you can then formulate a strategy.

The Sikh way is the holistic way to see things from all angles, 

Some of the solutions are simple and straightforward, others are not so much.

As a first step, if we psychologically accept that subjugation is somehow acceptable - we've lost already. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

As a first step, if we psychologically accept that subjugation is somehow acceptable - we've lost already. 

In what context are we subjugated?

And how are we accepting this subjugation? 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

In what context are we subjugated?

And how are we accepting this subjugation? 

You know what mate. Do you remember that BBC Television talk that Jagraj Singh (of BoS) was on? You actually sound like the modern incarnation of that embarrassingly fawning, apologist crusty uncle that was on that show. 

Seriously.....

You're asking me how Sikhs were subjugated after the AngloSikh wars!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

You know what mate. Do you remember that BBC Television talk that Jagraj Singh (of BoS) was on? You actually sound like the modern incarnation of that embarrassingly fawning, apologist crusty uncle that was on that show. 

Seriously.....

You're asking me how Sikhs were subjugated after the AngloSikh wars!

You have not answered my question. 

But let's try to come up with some logical critical assessment:

We lost an empire - yes.

Are we going to get our empire back? - not likely

The vast majority of our population is living in India -yes.

Do we have our self determination - no.

How many Sikhs think they are subjugated in India? 

Out of those Sikhs who think they are subjugated, would they prefer to live in their own Sikh run state or continue being in India?

Would these subjugated people prefer India because they think Sikhs are not capable of running their own state?

Is this thinking that Sikhs not being capable part of the psychological subjugation or is this from realistic practicalities? 

Is living abroad preferable to an Independent Sikh State or living  in India?

If living in the west/abroad provides more rights and higher standard of living than India are these Sikhs still subjugated?

I don't have any answers but these types of questions have never been asked as far as I am aware.

 

 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

You have not answered my question. 

But let's try to come up with some logical critical assessment:

We lost an empire - yes.

Are we going to get our empire back? - not likely

The vast majority of our population is living in India -yes.

Do we have our self determination - no.

How many Sikhs think they are subjugated in India? 

Out of those Sikhs who think they are subjugated, would they prefer to live in their own Sikh run state or continue being in India?

Would these subjugated people prefer India because they think Sikhs are not capable of running their own state?

Is this thinking that Sikhs not being capable part of the psychological subjugation or is this from realistic practicalities? 

Is living abroad preferable to an Independent Sikh State or living  in India?

If living in the west/abroad provides more rights and higher standard of living than India are these Sikhs still subjugated?

I don't have any answers but these types of questions have never been asked as far as I am aware.

 

 

These are good questions and warrant reflection.  I'm unwinding for the weekend but people should ponder them. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, 13Mirch said:

'Did not promote inequality' and then, 'support structural inequalities?' Self-defeat in one go isn't it?

I'm sorry if you don't understand the nuance. The text itself doesn't suggest inequality between varnas it just suggests a separation of roles. It was used by the 'brahmanical' elite to provide and legitimatise structural inequalities.. Does that help 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, 13Mirch said:

'Did not promote inequality' and then, 'support structural inequalities?' Self-defeat in one go isn't it?

As you are probably well aware many texts, concepts  are decontextualised and exploited to support power structures.. I.e. How natural selection was used as a justification for racialism. It wasn't at all what darwin was suggesting but it didn't stop colonialists from using it as a tool of oppression  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

err I'm guessing you haven't read the caste-based punishments in the same text , of pouring hot lead in the ears of a shudra/untouchable if they commited the sin of hearing sanskrit/ geeta/vedas ... real non-discrimination.

Or the rule that if a brahmin or khastriya kills a shudra no sin is attached, in fact killing a cat would incur more paap/karmic load 

It also delineates the control and suppression of females.

Fair enough. Thank you 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Sukhvirk1976 said:

Fair enough. Thank you 

Maybe having researched the text, in question, before elaborating on it could have saved time.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, 13Mirch said:

Maybe having researched the text, in question, before elaborating on it could have saved time.

LOL! I was waiting for you make a contribution.. May be we should discuss it 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Sukhvirk1976 said:

LOL! I was waiting for you make a contribution.. May be we should discuss it 

Don't revert back to your base state... it will only derail an otherwise profound discussion. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now


  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Simran345, here is a pangti on SGGS 558, it seems to be talking about darshan which happened in a dream. Now sleep is being called as blessed so that the darshan of God can happen again. ਇਕੁ ਨ ਰੁਨਾ ਮੇਰੇ ਤਨ ਕਾ ਬਿਰਹਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਹਉ ਪਿਰਹੁ ਵਿਛੋੜੀ ॥ 
      इकु न रुना मेरे तन का बिरहा जिनि हउ पिरहु विछोड़ी ॥ 
      Ik na runā mere ṯan kā birhā jin ha▫o pirahu vicẖẖoṛī. 
      But one thing, my Body's soul weeps not, which has separated me from my beloved. 
      ਪਰ ਇਕ ਸ਼ੈ, ਮੇਰੀ ਦੇਹ ਦੀ ਵਿਛੁੜੀ ਹੋਈ ਆਤਮਾ ਰੋਂਦੀ ਨਹੀਂ ਜਿਸ ਨੇ ਮੈਨੂੰ ਮੇਰੇ ਪ੍ਰੀਤਮ ਨਾਲੋਂ ਵੱਖ ਕਰ ਛੱਡਿਆ ਹੈ। 
        ਸੁਪਨੈ ਆਇਆ ਭੀ ਗਇਆ ਮੈ ਜਲੁ ਭਰਿਆ ਰੋਇ ॥ 
      सुपनै आइआ भी गइआ मै जलु भरिआ रोइ ॥ 
      Supnai ā▫i▫ā bẖī ga▫i▫ā mai jal bẖari▫ā ro▫e. 
      He came to me in my dream and again went away, upon which I wept copious tears. 
      ਉਹ ਮੇਰੇ ਸੁਫਨੇ ਵਿੱਚ ਮੇਰੇ ਕੋਲ ਆਇਆ ਅਤੇ ਫੇਰ ਚਲਿਆ ਗਿਆ, ਜਿਸ ਉਤੇ ਮੈਂ ਹੰਝੂ ਭਰ ਕੇ ਰੋਈ। 
        ਆਇ ਨ ਸਕਾ ਤੁਝ ਕਨਿ ਪਿਆਰੇ ਭੇਜਿ ਨ ਸਕਾ ਕੋਇ ॥ 
      आइ न सका तुझ कनि पिआरे भेजि न सका कोइ ॥ 
      Ā▫e na sakā ṯujẖ kan pi▫āre bẖej na sakā ko▫e. 
      I cannot come to Thee, O my love, nor can I send any one. 
      ਮੈਂ ਤੇਰੇ ਕੋਲ ਨਹੀਂ ਆ ਸਕਦੀ, ਹੇ ਮੇਰੇ ਦਿਲਬਰ! ਨਾਂ ਹੀ ਮੈਂ ਕਿਸੇ ਨੂੰ ਘਲ ਸਕਦੀ ਹਾਂ। 
        ਆਉ ਸਭਾਗੀ ਨੀਦੜੀਏ ਮਤੁ ਸਹੁ ਦੇਖਾ ਸੋਇ ॥ 
      आउ सभागी नीदड़ीए मतु सहु देखा सोइ ॥ 
      Ā▫o sabẖāgī nīḏ▫ṛī▫e maṯ saho ḏekẖā so▫e. 
      Come, O fortunate sleep perhaps I may again, behold that Husband of mine (in dreams). 
      ਆ ਜਾ, ਹੇ ਭਾਗਾਂ ਵਾਲੀਏ ਨੀਂਦ੍ਰੇ! ਸ਼ਾਇਦ ਮੈਂ ਆਪਣੇ ਉਸ ਭਰਤੇ ਨੂੰ ਮੁੜ (ਸੁਪਨੇ ਵਿੱਚ) ਤੱਕ ਲਵਾਂ।      Or do you suppose its meaning is actually different to what is translated ?
    • Do you have sources for this?
    • In urdu we also use 'Mauze' so i doubt if it is hindi word.It sounds like a persian one.Indians have problem prouncing words which end with sound 'z'.Just like Mumtaz Mehal became Mumtaj Mehal and now just Taj Mehal.
    • i have no issue using persian,hindi,english words in my day to day conversations in punjab.I just though a good opportunity to learn "shuddh" punjabi. 
    • Sikhism needs neither a reformation nor a philosophy of free will. Reformations are for religions that are at a primitive tribal level in the first place. Sikhi starts off with Guru Nanak Ji feeding people langar, and preaching meditation of Satnam. If you start off with capturing war booty and sex slaves killing all the males, yeah, you need a reformation. Philosophy is (mostly) for people trying desperately to understand the universe without real divine knowledge. These types of efforts are called ਸਿਆਣਪਾਂ in Gurbani. (You did you Japji this morning, right?) All of these sianapan don't amount to a hill of beans. We don't have the burning need for philosophy that Westerners do because we can obtain complete knowledge via simran. ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਸੁਝੈ ॥
×