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7 hours ago, 5akaalsingh said:

Truth is that habits like drinking and watching nautch dance were very common among Indian rulers and misldars. True Sikhs of that time only existed among Nirmala and Nihang orders. Most Punjabis didn't cared much about habits of their ruler. Instead, the prosperity he brought to the region made him a hero in their eyes.

That's about the truth of it.

Jacfsingh is talking out of his ar5e. But ALL contemporary accounts, people in Panjab LOVED Maharajah Ranjit Singh. 

Only modern prudes like the above have an issue with him. 

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On 11/06/2017 at 11:31 AM, 5akaalsingh said:

Truth is that habits like drinking and watching nautch dance were very common among Indian rulers and misldars.

 

I don't think this should realistically be played down like this.

The problem with this kind of behaviour by the leaders of any nation/society is that they don't live in a vacuum. If they did, they could theoretically get up to whatever kind of depraved anti-Sikh debaucheries they felt inclined to as far as I'm concerned. As long as these didn't adversely affect their rule in particular and the behaviour of society as a whole. Which, in itself is a pipe dream.

The reason why that's not advisable policy in any event in the real world is because leaders possess a very real and powerful signalling function. This can be highly beneficial in the right hands and potentially seriously dangerous in the wrong hands. Public perception of a leader's behavior is hugely magnified, and, inevitably, it filters all the way down society.

Therefore, leaders have a strict duty and responsibility to their subjects to set them a healthy and positive example to follow. They need not only to possess the correct morals, but more importantly, to be seen to possess the correct morals. This is more or less dharam, to which the Maharaja appeared to give wild abandon towards the end of his life.

Now these kinds of restrictions could well be deemed a bit of a straightjacket for a red-blooded ruler, and I suspect that the one being referred to here felt that to be the case. But, quite frankly, that is the price of the job. Either accept it, or leave it to someone with greater self-restraint.

At this point, it should be self-evident that any form of widespread addiction to the baser sensual pleasures is seriously detrimental to the future existence as a going concern of any nation. I shouldn't need to explain how these addictions encourage and normalise the very vikaars that produce a society of weak, shallow, easily manipulable individuals, low in morals, and crippled by a complete absence of the family values that are required to maintain a healthy strong and growing nation.

However, by the Maharaja and most (though not all) of his close leadership indulging in this exact kind of downright utter gundh, it gave a green light to the rest of society that this stuff was strictly A-OK. So you could get drunk, get high, sleep with multiple partners that you never intend to get married with, and still call yourself a practising Sikh. All with the endorsement of the Maharaja. Happy days.

Ironically, the Maharaja, increasingly brazenly in his latter days, got up to the very kind of anti-Sikh rubbish that the Khalsa was instructed and mandated to eradicate. So much for Khalsa Rahe Niara.

Consequently, I think that the roots of the current simplistic, unsophisticated, promiscuous, and shallow "balle balle" drinking/dancing/bhangra culture (which is incidentally a totally mughal imitation) that our society is currently infested with can be traced back to this era.

As a result, I believe that Guru Maharaj gave us a good and well deserved lesson when the Khalsa Raj that was abused in this fashion came crashing down. Yet, apparently we've learnt nothing, and some people appear to actually fantasise about returning to an age where this exact same gundh can be repeated and replicated with impunity, whilst somehow avoiding the side-effects that are bound to accompany it. It's impossible.

No serious nation ever prospered whose rulers gave into cheap pleasures, sensual thrills and hedonistic debauchery.

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On 6/11/2017 at 10:31 PM, 5akaalsingh said:

Truth is that habits like drinking and watching nautch dance were very common among Indian rulers and misldars. True Sikhs of that time only existed among Nirmala and Nihang orders. Most Punjabis didn't cared much about habits of their ruler. Instead, the prosperity he brought to the region made him a hero in their eyes.

The Nirmalas were probably the most corrupt order at the time. We all know how Mehtab Singh, and his patrons at Patiala, joined the British in creating a new "loyalist" Sikh identity. His fellows were soundly thrashed at Hazoor Sahib. Unable to fight, they took to publishing literature downplaying the role of other Sikhs and glorifying their own so-called "unsullied" Sikhi. This is where the Sanataan School of Thought really came from.  

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42 minutes ago, 5akaalsingh said:

True, but that happened after the Sikh raj had fallen. My point is that not everybody was a good Sikh, at least , acording to the ideals we have today.

That's the crux of the issue. Are all of the ideals we hold today rooted in a SIkh past, or are some of them accretions which stem from the colonial period and are rooted in outsider, European nonSikh thinking?

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On 6/12/2017 at 2:21 PM, jashb said:

 

 

No serious nation ever prospered whose rulers gave into cheap pleasures, sensual thrills and hedonistic debauchery.

The English didn't do too bad in this respect. 

On the flipside, trying to build up a nation whilst in in denial about the normal earthly instincts of the majority of subjects just creates a false 'conservatism' that gets routinely flouted (albeit covertly) despite the show of reserve on top. That's where we are right now as a community - and from what I can see, it doesn't look like it's doing us any favours to be honest.

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16 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

That's the crux of the issue. Are all of the ideals we hold today rooted in a SIkh past, or are some of them accretions which stem from the colonial period and are rooted in outsider, European nonSikh thinking?

What I find humorous is that the very parameters, of identity, utilized to define "colonial Sikhi" versus "pre-colonial Sikhi" are somewhat ambiguous. In relation to Hinduism, it is argued that modern Sikhi is but a Europeanized revamping; yet if the same parameters are applied to Hinduism then it emerges that Hinduism too is a Europeanized revamping. 

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10 hours ago, 13Mirch said:

What I find humorous is that the very parameters, of identity, utilized to define "colonial Sikhi" versus "pre-colonial Sikhi" are somewhat ambiguous. In relation to Hinduism, it is argued that modern Sikhi is but a Europeanized revamping; yet if the same parameters are applied to Hinduism then it emerges that Hinduism too is a Europeanized revamping. 

Absolutely. My feelings are that 'Hinduism' as is conceptualised today didn't exist in the pre-colonial period. But we're Sikhs and we have to let Hindus figure their own stuff out, we need to focus on our own thing. 

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