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Vote Preet Kaur Gill as MP for Birmingham Edgbaston

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6 hours ago, californiasardar1 said:

Don't get me wrong.  Preet Gill seems to be doing a fine job in parliament.  I really respect her work in taking up Sikh issues and especially her efforts to highlight the case of Jaggi Johal and ensure that he is treated fairly.  I am sure that she is a much better Sikh than people like me.

She is doing a good job so maybe we should't be judging her based on her private life and focus more on the fact that she is one of the few MP's from our community that is raising awareness to the issues we have, 

 

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13 hours ago, californiasardar1 said:

Obviously, Sikh women from clean shaven families will not look twice at a singh, but if women from such strong Sikh background are also looking elsewhere, what will singhs do?

Brahmchari ki pratigya. It's the sanest choice in an insane world, lol.

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Californiasardar 

If it was a white guy with a hipster beard, and one of those manbuns, I can guarantee that the Sikh girls from clean-shaven families would be OK with that. 

The problem is not really kesh and dastaar with some of our Sikh women, it is the perception of what they think it represents. 

I know of Amritdhari and Keshdari men that have had no problem marrying Sikh girls from clean shaven families. 

But these Amritdhari and Keshdari (not trimmed beard but proper beard) have had no problems attracting women.

 

 

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3 hours ago, Ranjeet01 said:

I know of Amritdhari and Keshdari men that have had no problem marrying Sikh girls from clean shaven families. 

But these Amritdhari and Keshdari (not trimmed beard but proper beard) have had no problems attracting women.

 

 

Sorry, confused by what you are trying to say

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2 minutes ago, Premi5 said:

Sorry, confused by what you are trying to say

Many Amritdhari men lack confidence attracting Sikh women for marriage.

They blame it on  Sikh women preferring clean shaven men.

There may be an element of truth in that but maybe it has to do with other factors.

For example our late brother Jagraj Singh of Basics of Sikhi was a very confident man and he had no problems attracting a beautiful Russian Amritdhari woman.

His colleague Jagmeet Singh married a French Amritdhari woman.

Both Amritdhari men.

I think some of our brothers need to look inside themselves. We are coming off wimpy and needy. That does not attract women.

 

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2 hours ago, Ranjeet01 said:

His colleague Jagmeet Singh married a French Amritdhari woman.

She was actually Spanish. 

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7 minutes ago, simran345 said:

She was actually Spanish. 

Ok. I know someone who met her and said she was French,  they must have been mistaken.

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Here are some tips for my shy brothers, this should help you become more attractive:

1.) If there are girls who prefer clean shaven men, there is not a lot you can do about that. There are 7 billion people on earth, at least half are women, why limit yourself to several thousand girls of Sikh/Punjabi background who show no appreciation. 

2.)start working out, lift weights,  train and get in shape. If you ever look at pictures of Sikhs of old, they were always well built. You can't do a lot for height if you are shorter but make the best for what you got.

3.)Take up a martial art, this makes you a more interesting person. It also makes you more confident. 

4.)Dress better. If you work out, clothes fit better when you are in shape.

5.) Improve your posture, shoulders back, back straight. Again look at pictures of Sikhs during the gurus times, you will notice that they  always have good posture. The perception of people when they see you like this shows you are a competent confident person.

6.)Talk to women,they are not an alien species. Don't limit yourself to our own Punjabi /Sikh women. Black women,  white women, Chinese women, older women, younger women, middle-aged women. Talking to them like they are people not as sex objects. If you are at work, just say hello  (you don't need to make conversation with them if it is too much for you.)

Think how many people the average Parcharak talk to. Learn from them.

When you are seen as a man talking to a woman, other women (even the Kesh detesting women from the clean shaven families) look at you differently. Social proof is big thing for women. When a woman finds you attractive,  her friends and other women will find you attractive. 

 

 

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Democracy,voting, elected individuals etc are just illusions. 

You are being cast under a spell if you believe in all this and don't even realise. 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Ranjeet01 said:

Californiasardar 

If it was a white guy with a hipster beard, and one of those manbuns, I can guarantee that the Sikh girls from clean-shaven families would be OK with that. 

The problem is not really kesh and dastaar with some of our Sikh women, it is the perception of what they think it represents. 

I know of Amritdhari and Keshdari men that have had no problem marrying Sikh girls from clean shaven families. 

But these Amritdhari and Keshdari (not trimmed beard but proper beard) have had no problems attracting women.

 

 

 

Yes veerji, I agree with you.  It isn't necessarily the beard and hair (look at the far-from-universal, but still substantial popularity of hipsters with beards and man-buns).  It isn't even necessarily the turban ("trim singhs" appear to be popular in certain segments of the sikh population).  It's the perception that is immediately created when the dhari and kesh and dastar all come together. 

But it is the circumstances of sabat soorat singhs who always wear dastars who I am concerned with.  I'm not going to take off my dastar and start rocking a man-bun (thought I know some singhs are), and I'm not going to trim my beard and become a "trim singh" (as many singhs are).  I am going to stick with the traditional Sikhi saroop, and I hope that as many singhs as possible do.  So the experiences of those who deviate from this traditional saroop are irrelevant to this discussion. 

 

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7 hours ago, Ranjeet01 said:

Many Amritdhari men lack confidence attracting Sikh women for marriage.

They blame it on  Sikh women preferring clean shaven men.

There may be an element of truth in that but maybe it has to do with other factors.

For example our late brother Jagraj Singh of Basics of Sikhi was a very confident man and he had no problems attracting a beautiful Russian Amritdhari woman.

His colleague Jagmeet Singh married a French Amritdhari woman.

Both Amritdhari men.

I think some of our brothers need to look inside themselves. We are coming off wimpy and needy. That does not attract women.

 

 

 

Yes, it's great that there are examples such as those that you highlight. 

 

But are you not concerned by the large numbers of Sikhs (even those from Gursikh, prominent families such as Preet Gill) are cutting their kesh, marrying others who've done the same, and raising children who will, in all likelihood, also be monay?  Sure, I know you and others can point to some examples here and there of people from non-religious families who have embraced Sikhi.  But Sikhs who fit the former profile far outnumber those who fit the latter.  There are a lot more people "leaving" than "coming".

Religious Sikhs are generally dismissive of such concerns and cling to "quality over quantity" platitudes.  But a tiny (and rapidly dwindling) population is perhaps the biggest threat to the Sikh quam.  Our lack of numbers is why we are a stateless people with little power and little ability to safeguard and pass on our way of life.  And considering how many young Sikhs are leaving Sikhi on a daily basis, this problem is only going to get worse.

 

Numbers matter. 

Our lack of numbers mattered in 1947 when we lost Nankana Sahib, scores of other historical Gurdware, and our best agricultural land.

Our lack of numbers mattered during the Punjabi subha movement in the 1960s, resulting in a truncated Punjab state.

Our lack of numbers continue to cripple us even after we formed a majority in the truncated Punjab.  Unless 85-90% of Sikhs in Punjab get behind one political party (which never happens), we always end up with a party in power that had to pander to anti-Sikh interests to get there.

Our lack of numbers mattered in the 1980s when we were getting massacred.

Our lack of numbers matter today in the West where we are unable to protect ourselves physically and create a comfortable environment where our religion and way of life can flourish.  Sikhs in Canada and the UK who live in places like Surrey and Southall are blind to this reality, but in many other areas, we are impotent.  Go talk to some Sikhs from France.  In France, Sikhs barely have any numerical strength, and this lack of clout can be seen in France's persisting turban ban.

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4 hours ago, Ranjeet01 said:

Here are some tips for my shy brothers, this should help you become more attractive:

1.) If there are girls who prefer clean shaven men, there is not a lot you can do about that. There are 7 billion people on earth, at least half are women, why limit yourself to several thousand girls of Sikh/Punjabi background who show no appreciation. 

2.)start working out, lift weights,  train and get in shape. If you ever look at pictures of Sikhs of old, they were always well built. You can't do a lot for height if you are shorter but make the best for what you got.

3.)Take up a martial art, this makes you a more interesting person. It also makes you more confident. 

4.)Dress better. If you work out, clothes fit better when you are in shape.

5.) Improve your posture, shoulders back, back straight. Again look at pictures of Sikhs during the gurus times, you will notice that they  always have good posture. The perception of people when they see you like this shows you are a competent confident person.

6.)Talk to women,they are not an alien species. Don't limit yourself to our own Punjabi /Sikh women. Black women,  white women, Chinese women, older women, younger women, middle-aged women. Talking to them like they are people not as sex objects. If you are at work, just say hello  (you don't need to make conversation with them if it is too much for you.)

Think how many people the average Parcharak talk to. Learn from them.

When you are seen as a man talking to a woman, other women (even the Kesh detesting women from the clean shaven families) look at you differently. Social proof is big thing for women. When a woman finds you attractive,  her friends and other women will find you attractive. 

 

 

 

Thanks for this input veerji.  You make some great points.

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18 hours ago, kcmidlands said:

She is doing a good job so maybe we should't be judging her based on her private life and focus more on the fact that she is one of the few MP's from our community that is raising awareness to the issues we have, 

 

 

Yes veerji.  Note that in the part of my post that you quoted, I acknowledged the great work that Preet Gill has done in parliament.  We must make sure that those who stand with us know that we appreciate their efforts.

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5 hours ago, californiasardar1 said:

 

 

Yes, it's great that there are examples such as those that you highlight. 

 

But are you not concerned by the large numbers of Sikhs (even those from Gursikh, prominent families such as Preet Gill) are cutting their kesh, marrying others who've done the same, and raising children who will, in all likelihood, also be monay?  Sure, I know you and others can point to some examples here and there of people from non-religious families who have embraced Sikhi.  But Sikhs who fit the former profile far outnumber those who fit the latter.  There are a lot more people "leaving" than "coming".

Religious Sikhs are generally dismissive of such concerns and cling to "quality over quantity" platitudes.  But a tiny (and rapidly dwindling) population is perhaps the biggest threat to the Sikh quam.  Our lack of numbers is why we are a stateless people with little power and little ability to safeguard and pass on our way of life.  And considering how many young Sikhs are leaving Sikhi on a daily basis, this problem is only going to get worse.

 

Numbers matter. 

Our lack of numbers mattered in 1947 when we lost Nankana Sahib, scores of other historical Gurdware, and our best agricultural land.

Our lack of numbers mattered during the Punjabi subha movement in the 1960s, resulting in a truncated Punjab state.

Our lack of numbers continue to cripple us even after we formed a majority in the truncated Punjab.  Unless 85-90% of Sikhs in Punjab get behind one political party (which never happens), we always end up with a party in power that had to pander to anti-Sikh interests to get there.

Our lack of numbers mattered in the 1980s when we were getting massacred.

Our lack of numbers matter today in the West where we are unable to protect ourselves physically and create a comfortable environment where our religion and way of life can flourish.  Sikhs in Canada and the UK who live in places like Surrey and Southall are blind to this reality, but in many other areas, we are impotent.  Go talk to some Sikhs from France.  In France, Sikhs barely have any numerical strength, and this lack of clout can be seen in France's persisting turban ban.

I can see the trends in the UK because I am from the UK. 

There are a lot of people going from mona to Keshdari than the other way around.

One must be practical about these things, you are not going to get perfection on these matters.

There are certain nuances that you must understand about us UK Sikhs.

Preet Gill's father I think was highly likely to become Amritdhari later in life, I could almost guarantee that Preet's father was not Amritdhari when she was growing up.

You will notice when a lot of the current UK bizurgs were mona in the 60's and 70's and then grew back the kesh afterwards.

There is a difference in the region of the UK where a Sikh resides.  

There are 2 areas where Sikhs reside: London and the South East

Birmingham and the Midlands.

Preet is from the latter. She is a Midlands Sikh. In the UK,  the Midlands Sikh is far more in touch with their roots and traditions than the London Sikhs (I am generalising here ). So you get the perception that because she cuts her hair that somehow she is lax in some matters. Don't let appearances deceive you.

Some of the most ardent pro Sikh Sikhs are found in the Midlands. A mona from Birmingham will have your back more than an Amridhari from London. 

That is the irony.

Numbers do matter but in what context?

As a voting bloc yes but it is how you use those numbers. Most of the heavy lifting for our quam is going to be done by a minority,  the majority is there for  the ride.

 

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9 hours ago, californiasardar1 said:

 

Yes veerji, I agree with you.  It isn't necessarily the beard and hair (look at the far-from-universal, but still substantial popularity of hipsters with beards and man-buns).  It isn't even necessarily the turban ("trim singhs" appear to be popular in certain segments of the sikh population).  It's the perception that is immediately created when the dhari and kesh and dastar all come together. 

But it is the circumstances of sabat soorat singhs who always wear dastars who I am concerned with.  I'm not going to take off my dastar and start rocking a man-bun (thought I know some singhs are), and I'm not going to trim my beard and become a "trim singh" (as many singhs are).  I am going to stick with the traditional Sikhi saroop, and I hope that as many singhs as possible do.  So the experiences of those who deviate from this traditional saroop are irrelevant to this discussion. 

 

The point that I am trying to make here is that these kind of girls are notoriously fickle. 

What they say and what they do are two different things.

They will say they don't want a keshdari man and then proceed to go out with a pony tailed/man bun big beard hipster guy.

Follow their actions not their words.

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