Kira

Has anyone here read the Quran

115 posts in this topic

5 hours ago, Kira said:

I;me atpted to order the Qurathen from India in Gurmukhi script with proper meanings too lol, but im pretty sure my family there might start telling my parents I'm turning into a muslim. 

I would ask my muslim classmates but In all honesty I want more neutral opinions of it, not ones forged in the depths of childhood brainwashing lol.

If I were you I would read the bible first. Stories from It make the 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, sikhni777 said:

If I were you I would read the bible first. Stories from It make the 

I've read the bible :) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This thread is a prime example of why i believe Sikhs are, broadly, decent people at heart. For a base group of people this thread would've signalled a green light to express some pretty offensive opinions on the founder of Islam - something which I've observed Muslims partake in when it comes to a casual discussion of our Guru Sahibs - but nobody to my knowledge has relished the opportunity to lay into their big guy. Yes, we question their beliefs and certain aspects of their writings, but not in a way that you'll see in the comments section of a YouTube anti-islam video or on various discussion sites.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Kira said:

I've read the bible :) 

I used to read it too when I was a kid, but don't remember anything. Also used to sing hymns at school, but I never knew the words, so used to pretend I was singing by miming to them, but make up my own words. 

Edited by simran345

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, simran345 said:

I used to read it too when I was a kid, but don't remember anything. Also used to sing hymns at school, but I never knew the words, so used to pretend I was singing by miming to them. 

I actually enjoyed quite a bit of it, the stories anyways. Jesus seemed like a really amazing person, Joan of Arc was an interesting read (historically as she was able to hear the voices of the angels).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Kira said:

I actually enjoyed quite a bit of it, the stories anyways. Jesus seemed like a really amazing person, Joan of Arc was an interesting read (historically as she was able to hear the voices of the angels).

I don't remember any of the stories, only Jesus, it's weird as I can't remember anything as I grew up, but used to read a page everyday. I was more interested in the singing the hymns I think. 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

 

I am just saying Indians probably didn't have kurtas and pajamas either. Arabs brought it . Before that indians only wore wrapped clothes like saree, dhoti , lungi etc lol

We owe our kurtey to arabs really . 

Yes, it's true, ancient India did not have sewn clothes. Guru's bana is stitched clothing, and the reason Sikhs wear stitched clothing (chola, kurta-pajama, salwar-kameez) as opposed to sari and dhoti is as a rejection of Vedic values.

http://www.sanatan.org/en/a/290.html shows Hindu preference for unstitched clothes. See also http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/sep/14/saris-reflect-hindu-values/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

Guru Sahiban would not have commented on the quran as such because the quran was not the same as it is now , also the hadiths were ascribed to Mohammed many years after his death ; in that case anyone can say anything and say the prophet said it , I mean the sayings had to be sifted for the final published ones out of many thousands 

What? I understand that the Noble Koran was being finalized in the years after the Prophet Mohammed's death, but Guru Nanak Dev ji was born 837 years after the former's death in 632 AD!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Quran is not same as hadiths . Gurbani says nothing on hadiths . 

While your first statement is true, the second is not. It's true that Gurbani is certainly not a long boring commentary on the Hadiths. But Guru Sahib does mention them, and disposes of them in a single statement:

ਨਾਪਾਕ ਪਾਕੁ ਕਰਿ ਹਦੂਰਿ ਹਦੀਸਾ ਸਾਬਤ ਸੂਰਤਿ ਦਸਤਾਰ ਸਿਰਾ ॥੧੨॥

The pertinent part means purify what is impure, and let the God's presence be your hadith. p1048

So, instead of a long, interminable book of what to do and not do, Guru Sahib just says living in the presence of God will keep you on the right track, thus consigning the Hadiths to the dustbin.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

In recent times my mind constantly returns to one question regarding Islam and our Guru Sahibs: if the Qur'an and its teachings are as their scriptures show them to be, why were our Guru Sahibs not unequivocal in their condemnation of the religion, its Prophet, and its teachings? How can the authors of our Bani possibly be so forgiving of the content of the Qur'an? I don't get it at all.

I think in the end we just have to accept that Guru is Satguru, and has the right to decide what to do (not like people who loudly ask why does Bachittar Natak not mention Pir Budhu Shah?). 

That said, I think it's OK to speculate, and some Sikhs have said the reason is simply that Guru Sahib did not think the Arabian Prophet's book was worth Their time. I disagree that Guru Sahib was forgiving of the Quran. The only possible neutral statement is "jhoota jo na bichare", but that's basically a call to be knowledgeable, which is really inarguable.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, BhForce said:

I think in the end we just have to accept that Guru is Satguru, and has the right to decide what to do (not like people who loudly ask why does Bachittar Natak not mention Pir Budhu Shah?). 

That said, I think it's OK to speculate, and some Sikhs have said the reason is simply that Guru Sahib did not think the Arabian Prophet's book was worth Their time. I disagree that Guru Sahib was forgiving of the Quran. The only possible neutral statement is "jhoota jo na bichare", but that's basically a call to be knowledgeable, which is really inarguable.

Great points. I suppose due to us living in a period of history where these matters are constantly under intense examination, we perhaps assign greater importance to these issues than they actually merit. Still, i do believe Islam and its followers will have a significant role to play in the long-term future of this planet, and it's for that reason i find myself wondering why the muted reaction to their scriptures from our spiritual giants, more so considering the content of our own scriptures in comparison to that which was followed by the ruling regime of those times. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

Perhaps that has something to do with the style and level of competence of the translator? I've read the English versions of the major Sikh banis, and I've got to say they are underwhelming to say the least. There's none of the poetry and the flow of the original Gurmukhi, which is understandable, but as a layman who appreciates the English language I'm pretty certain someone with a flair for the English language could create a superb English translation of SGGS Ji. Even in terms of grammar, the English translations are the typical broken Indian-English taught in Indian schools. It's actually quite a shame that for someone who might only be capable of reading English would come away disappointed in the English translation.

Friend, I have not encountered a single translation with broken English. The translations might not be leet-speak, rapper-talk, or whatever else is spoken on the mean streets of Harlem or Manchester, but that does not mean there is any problem with sentence structure, syntax, or grammar in those translations. Let's not dis our people for no reason.

Do you have any extensive quotations from translations you consider broken English?

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

Great points. I suppose due to us living in a period of history where these matters are constantly under intense examination, we perhaps assign greater importance to these issues than they actually merit. Still, i do believe Islam and its followers will have a significant role to play in the long-term future of this planet, and it's for that reason i find myself wondering why the muted reaction to their scriptures from our spiritual giants, more so considering the content of our own scriptures in comparison to that which was followed by the ruling regime of those times. 

Exactly. Since the world is experiencing Islamic terror seemingly non-stop since 2001, everyone (including us) wants to know what X has to say about Islam. But we should trust that Guru Sahib knows not just our current needs for the early 21st century, but for all eternity.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

The one most common argument put forward by Muslims to a non-Muslim who's read the Qur'an and the Hadiths, and isn't having any of it is, "But you need to read it in Arabic to appreciate it's purity and depth!" So begins a never-ending process of wrapping the reader in a web of activity to deflect criticism. 

I'll get a hold of what's the commonly accepted best English translation. 

Right, and so the best way to answer that is "I've read the translation authorized by the Custodian of the Two Holy Mosques (Saudi Arabia)". That should shut them up.

Quote

In 1980, the Saudi religious establishment felt the need for a reliable English translation and exegesis of the Qur'an to be made available for the increasing English language readership across the globe. After researching the various translations in print at the time, four high-level committees under the General Presidency of the Department of Islamic Research chose Yusuf Ali's translation and commentary as the best available for publication. After significant revisions, a large Hardback edition was printed in 1985 by the King Fahd Holy Qur'an Printing Complex of Saudi Arabia, according to Royal Decree No. 12412.[2] This edition served as the officially sanctioned English translation of the Saudi religious establishment, until it was replaced by the Noble Qur'an translation upon the latter's arrival in the marketplace.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holy_Qur'an:_Text,_Translation_and_Commentary#Saudi_sponsorship

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Noble_Quran_(Hilali-Khan)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, BhForce said:

Friend, I have not encountered a single translation with broken English. The translations might not be leet-speak, rapper-talk, or whatever else is spoken on the mean streets of Harlem or Manchester, but that does not mean there is any problem with sentence structure, syntax, or grammar in those translations. Let's not dis our people for no reason.

Do you have any extensive quotations from translations you consider broken English?

It definitely has that quality which is only found in the type of English taught in Indian schools. I'm referring to the only major translation available, the Singh Khalsa version. So whilst not technically broken, to a non-Indian with an ear for syntax and sentence flow, it is quite rough going at times; not constantly but occasionally.

Edited by MisterrSingh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

I'm referring to the only major translation available, the Singh Khalsa version.

There are actually many English translations available (meaning available the next time you visit Amritsar--might be available on Amazon, I don't know). By "Singh Khalsa" are you referring to the Sant Singh Khalsa version?

Dr. Sant Singh Khalsa was a white (if that matters) American follower of Harbhajan Singh Yogi. His translation has deficiencies, but those deficiencies are not of English usage. If anything, people have praised the Sant Singh Khalsa version for using more modern English.

Broken English is, in my consideration, when you mean to say:

--I gave the book to the man.

saying instead

--Me give book man

That's broken.

But saying "smite" for "strike" or "kine" for "cows" is not wrong in any way.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, BhForce said:

Yes, it's true, ancient India did not have sewn clothes. Guru's bana is stitched clothing, and the reason Sikhs wear stitched clothing (chola, kurta-pajama, salwar-kameez) as opposed to sari and dhoti is as a rejection of Vedic values.

http://www.sanatan.org/en/a/290.html shows Hindu preference for unstitched clothes. See also http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2008/sep/14/saris-reflect-hindu-values/

first thing is kacchera instead of two dhotis , how the hell did they go to battle and keep their clothes in order without belts etc?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

first thing is kacchera instead of two dhotis , how the hell did they go to battle and keep their clothes in order without belts etc?

Only Ksychatrias fight in Hinduism, their warrior clothes would be different from regular people's clothes. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Jacfsing2 said:

Only Ksychatrias fight in Hinduism, their warrior clothes would be different from regular people's clothes. 

the indian films (modern) depicting such fighters seem to be wearing a version of the dhoti , but the pyjami is Indian or made by apne later in history?

Edited by jkvlondon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

the indian films (modern) depicting such fighters seem to be wearing a version of the dhoti , but the pyjami is Indian or made by apne later in history?

A movie is entertainment. There is so much special effects and visual effects you can't even imagine.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 23/04/2017 at 7:18 PM, MisterrSingh said:

“I saw the prophet – pbuh – sucking on the tongue or the lips of Al-Hassan son of Ali, may the prayers of Allah be upon him. For no tongue or lips that the prophet sucked on will be tormented (by hell fire)

He (the Prophet) lift up his (al Hassan’s) shirt and kissed his (little) <banned word filter activated>..”
روى أنه صلى الله عليه و سلم قبل زبيبة الحسن أو الحسين
He (the prophet) kissed the (little) <banned word filter activated> of al Hassan or al Husein
رأيت النبي صلى الله عليه و سلم فرج ما بين فخذي الحسين و قبل زبيبته
He (the prophet) put Husein’s legs apart and kissed his (little) <banned word filter activated>

Another Hadith. Majma al-Zawa’id, Ali ibn Abu Bakr al-Haythami, 299/9 مجمع الزوائد لعلي بن أبى بكر الهيثمي

رأيت رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم فرج ما بين فخذي الحسين و قبل زبيبته
رواه الطبراني و إسناده حسن
translated into English: “I saw the Messenger of Allah pbuh putting Husein’s legs apart and kissing his (little) <banned word filter activated>.”

 

You're chatting nonsense. Show me the beauty in any of the above.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 25/04/2017 at 10:59 PM, Guest Beautiful Video said:

 

No, no, no. No amount of justifications and "scholarly interpretations" can explain away the founder of a major faith kissing little boys' penises. Try that with the mentally ill and gullible, not with me.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2017-4-24 at 0:28 AM, Guest Muhammad said:

 

You are a total piece of <banned word filter activated>.  Your time is coming again when Sikhs will burn you cowards alive before skinning you alive and feeding this non halal meat to rest of your brothers begging not to be burnt alive.  

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your content will need to be approved by a moderator

Guest
You are commenting as a guest. If you have an account, please sign in.
Reply to this topic...

×   You have pasted content with formatting.   Remove formatting

  Only 75 emoticons maximum are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

Loading...

  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Blase means to be indifferent or unconcerned. However, you perceive my writing on Dasam Bani being reintroduced to be both nonchalant (why don't we bring in another French word) but also emotional and angry at the same time. That kind of makes for an oxymoron; contradictory terms.  When attempting to have any genuine and fruitful discussion I have experienced it is helpful to not speculate or make conjecture about the viewpoints of another. If curious or in doubt, just ask; ask with the innocent interest of a child. Other genuine level-headed people will gladly oblige. Fools like myself may otherwise find injury in your guesswork.   Bringing in Samparda Kathavachaks fixes the symptom not the illness. The root problem that will fester and multiply is unaddressed. Is this a strategy for the long term that will bring unity and togetherness in the Panth? No. I have posted an excerpt of my last post on this topic below for your convenience, often my arguments become TL;DR.     Again, conjecture and scorn for a person you genuinely want to have dialogue with may not be useful. Some may misinterpret your heartfelt intentions.   If I'm not mistaken, it was rescinded after just two years!  Here is the difference: When the Sikhs took the jagir from the Mughals, they took it after deliberation, discussion, and the approval of the Sarbat Khalsa Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma has built no such discussion and consensus building into his strategy, not even with the Sant Samaj. Heaps of them condemn his political choices.  Getting the discourse changed to Gurmat is good. But the underlying problems remain unaddressed; problems that do the most to hold the Panth back as outlined in my above post.  The jagir allowed the Sikhs to consolidate different jathas under the leadership of Kapur Singh into the Dal Khalsa. Factions were brought together.  They used the political calm to develop their autonomous power and establish their sovereignty This was political power and control that they were able to grow for the Panth. The jagir was taken away very quickly, but look at what they accomplished in that time. The Khalsa was brought together in unity to fight for our future prosperity.  I highly doubt the SIkhs who had been hunted down by Zakariya Khan suddenly became enthralled by his friendship. They took the jagir in a collective, panthic decision and likely knew they could be double-crossed. But they mustered their forces and were in a stronger position for when it did happen.  In all the major issues of the Panth that I have outlined in my previous posts, Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma has made little headway in ameliorating them.  No political autonomy is established for the Panth. The Indian government regulated the SGPC, the SGPC in turn is run by Badal and the Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal). There is no autonomy or control of the Panth in its own affairs, we are led by the string where the political elite wish to go.  As I stated previously: Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma's strategy gives the Panth no autonomy, no control, and he has not pushed forward the Panth's interests in any worthwhile long-lasting way.   
    • It is by Kavi Santokh Singh Suraj Parkesh Granth
    • This is exactly the same thing which Muslim Kings and army was saying about Sikhs a few centuries ago. In fact, these Muslim rulers were saying that no Sikh is left, however, Sikhs did become rulers of the land after couple of Genocides. I am not saying it is going to be easy with Hindu India, but you are under estimating Sikhs. 
    • Sakhi from  Subedar Baghel Singh “Jivan Anubhav” his autobiography. He says one day after his simran he sat down to rest. His Astral body (sookham sahreer) separated from his body went through the roof at a very high speed. His Astal body left the earth behind and ended up in a place where there were various Sant mandalis. He was surprised to see himself in two separate place but mere thought of his body brought him back inside his body. Similar stories can also be found in pachmi parkash jeeven sant Karam Singh Hotimardan and Se Kinehya Jeeveni Sant Harnam Singh Rampurkhera.