Kira

Has anyone here read the Quran

107 posts in this topic

2 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

In bani, our Gurus talk about the muslim not really about Islam or the prophet in particular. 

At least that is how I see it.

They do talk about him in Bachitar Natak. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, MisterrSingh said:

In recent times my mind constantly returns to one question regarding Islam and our Guru Sahibs: if the Qur'an and its teachings are as their scriptures show them to be, why were our Guru Sahibs not unequivocal in their condemnation of the religion, its Prophet, and its teachings? How can the authors of our Bani possibly be so forgiving of the content of the Qur'an? I don't get it at all.

"Bed kateb kaho mat jhootey. Jhoota jo na beecharey" ~ SGGS

(Do not say that the vedas or semitic books are false . False are those who don't comprehend their essence)

 

Quran is one of those books , like uranium ! You can use it to run electricity plants or make it into atom bombs ! 

Unfortunately for this holy book, it landed amidst a bunch of buffoons ! Who didn't apprehend the underlying essence of it 

 

Who's kaafir ? they say its non muslims. Actually its those humans of any religion who refuse to thank god and are ungrateful. They say "Islam is the only religion acceptable to allah". True that, Islam (submission to will of god) is only religion acceptable to god . Its just that islam can be sikhi or hindu or buddhist too ! 

When you interpret these scriptures and saying in a metaphorical and subtle way, the beauty emerges ! and extremism fades into thin air ! 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

Yes, i appreciate that aspect of it; it's all about the iambic metres and things of that nature, and how those linguistic measures evoke certain emotions and sensations beyond the process of simple reading and comprehension, isn't it?

I don't know what it is. I don't even want to analyse it, or use reductionist techniques against it. When I'm lucky, I get to feel it. End of. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, MisterrSingh said:

Yes, i appreciate that aspect of it; it's all about the iambic metres and things of that nature, and how those linguistic measures evoke certain emotions and sensations beyond the process of simple reading and comprehension, isn't it?

Guru Sahiban would not have commented on the quran as such because the quran was not the same as it is now , also the hadiths were ascribed to Mohammed many years after his death ; in that case anyone can say anything and say the prophet said it , I mean the sayings had to be sifted for the final published ones out of many thousands 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I havent read the quran. But if I did, i think i would really connect with it. Its the only other scripture besides sggs i think that goes into raptures about God. And arabic sounds beautiful. Reminds me of jaap sahib. The parts ajeetsingh quoted read likea beautiful eulogy to God. But i probably couldn't stomach the extensive rules on slaughtering and marital matters. The hadiths from wht ive seen are crazy. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

When you interpret these scriptures and saying in a metaphorical and subtle way, the beauty emerges ! and extremism fades into thin air ! 

“I saw the prophet – pbuh – sucking on the tongue or the lips of Al-Hassan son of Ali, may the prayers of Allah be upon him. For no tongue or lips that the prophet sucked on will be tormented (by hell fire)

He (the Prophet) lift up his (al Hassan’s) shirt and kissed his (little) <banned word filter activated>..”
روى أنه صلى الله عليه و سلم قبل زبيبة الحسن أو الحسين
He (the prophet) kissed the (little) <banned word filter activated> of al Hassan or al Husein
رأيت النبي صلى الله عليه و سلم فرج ما بين فخذي الحسين و قبل زبيبته
He (the prophet) put Husein’s legs apart and kissed his (little) <banned word filter activated>

Another Hadith. Majma al-Zawa’id, Ali ibn Abu Bakr al-Haythami, 299/9 مجمع الزوائد لعلي بن أبى بكر الهيثمي

رأيت رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم فرج ما بين فخذي الحسين و قبل زبيبته
رواه الطبراني و إسناده حسن
translated into English: “I saw the Messenger of Allah pbuh putting Husein’s legs apart and kissing his (little) <banned word filter activated>.”

 

You're chatting nonsense. Show me the beauty in any of the above.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

“I saw the prophet – pbuh – sucking on the tongue or the lips of Al-Hassan son of Ali, may the prayers of Allah be upon him. For no tongue or lips that the prophet sucked on will be tormented (by hell fire)

He (the Prophet) lift up his (al Hassan’s) shirt and kissed his (little) <banned word filter activated>..”
روى أنه صلى الله عليه و سلم قبل زبيبة الحسن أو الحسين
He (the prophet) kissed the (little) <banned word filter activated> of al Hassan or al Husein
رأيت النبي صلى الله عليه و سلم فرج ما بين فخذي الحسين و قبل زبيبته
He (the prophet) put Husein’s legs apart and kissed his (little) <banned word filter activated>

Another Hadith. Majma al-Zawa’id, Ali ibn Abu Bakr al-Haythami, 299/9 مجمع الزوائد لعلي بن أبى بكر الهيثمي

رأيت رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم فرج ما بين فخذي الحسين و قبل زبيبته
رواه الطبراني و إسناده حسن
translated into English: “I saw the Messenger of Allah pbuh putting Husein’s legs apart and kissing his (little) <banned word filter activated>.”

 

You're chatting nonsense. Show me the beauty in any of the above.

Hadisey are controversial ! Quran is not same as hadiths . Gurbani says nothing on hadiths . 

Hadiths are just life accounts of Muhammad by his contemporaries or so they say. Barbaric things of islam like circumcision etc are found in hadiths only, not quran ! 

Also , I am no apologist for islam. I am just saying our Guru sahib said "Bed kateb kaho mat jhootey, jhoota jo na beecharey"

Edited by AjeetSinghPunjabi
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

Guru Sahiban would not have commented on the quran as such because the quran was not the same as it is now , also the hadiths were ascribed to Mohammed many years after his death ; in that case anyone can say anything and say the prophet said it , I mean the sayings had to be sifted for the final published ones out of many thousands 

The Qur'an immediately post Mohammed's death and the versions edited thereafter may have differed in content, but i struggle to believe they were still revising and editing the essence of it a mere 300 or so years ago. Surely it would've been in a finalised form by the year 1700?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Hadisey are controversial ! Quran is not same as hadiths . Gurbani says nothing on hadiths . 

Hadiths are just life accounts of Muhammad by his contemporaries or so they say. Barbaric things of islam like circumcision etc are found in hadiths only, not quran ! 

Also , I am no apologist for islam. I am just saying our Guru sahib said "Bed kateb kaho mat jhootey, jhoota jo na beecharey"

Don't make me search for similar content in the Quran itself, lol. It won't be pretty. Btw, you said "scriptures" not solely the Qur'an, so the Hadith is covered by the term "scriptures."

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

The Qur'an immediately post Mohammed's death and the versions edited thereafter may have differed in content, but i struggle to believe they were still revising and editing the essence of it a mere 300 or so years ago. Surely it would've been in a finalised form by the year 1700?

There is also the versions of islam , one that Mohammeds family had championed and then the one that their (the family's) would-be assassin's created. Allah in the quran is so not detached, but seems gleeful at hurting or confusing the lost instead of loving and forgiving 

Edited by jkvlondon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, jkvlondon said:

There is also the versions of islam , one that Mohammeds family had championed and then the one that their would-be assassin's created. Allah in the quran is so not detached, but seems gleeful at hurting or confusing the lost instead of loving and forgiving 

I'll have to read up on all this. I know that Mohammed's assassin was apparently a Jewish woman whose family he'd previously slain, so unless Jews had their hands in creating a version of the Qur'an, I'm getting confused.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

Don't make me search for similar content in the Quran itself, lol. It won't be pretty. Btw, you said "scriptures" not solely the Qur'an, so the Hadith is covered by the term "scriptures."

NO ! Hadith is not scripture , the same way that sikh historian book is not a scripture for us 

There are 4 scriptures of east (4 vedas), and 4 of west (Quran, Bible , Avestha and Torah) . Even Gurbani mentions these as "CHAAR" . So there are chaar ved , chaar kateb ! 

 

Quran is not comprehensive as SGGS is ! Its not as great either . I am just saying that it can give you a person direction to spiritual life if they handle it well . I know it has verses which say life of this dunia is temporary delusion . Same concept as "jag is maya" . It introduces in a person unattachment of this worldly life, "bairaag" I might say. 

Ofcourse, only if someone skipped madrasa and kept aside the criminal law verses (chopping hands, heads, etc lol) which I believe were delivered in the first place because arabs were quite bewakoof kind of people. They had to be guided .

Also Muhammad got revelation from outside (angel gabriel), not from inside , as in case of Guru sahib. which leads me to believe that prophet Muhammad was of not a very high spiritual state. no offense

Edited by AjeetSinghPunjabi
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I can say a lot about muhammad here . But I am not going to , because I don't think I have that kind of kamaai to lambast a religious leader, even though he was quite controversial . And I don't want PAAP on my head, incase i m wrong lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

NO ! Hadith is not scripture , the same way that sikh historian book is not a scripture for us 

There are 4 scriptures of east (4 vedas), and 4 of west (Quran, Bible , Avestha and Torah) . Even Gurbani mentions these as "CHAAR" . So there are chaar ved , chaar kateb ! 

 

Quran is not comprehensive as SGGS is ! Its not as great either . I am just saying that it can give you a person direction to spiritual life if they handle it well . I know it has verses which say life of this dunia is temporary delusion . Same concept as "jag is maya" . It introduces in a person unattachment of this worldly life, "bairaag" I might say. 

Ofcourse, only if someone skipped madrasa and kept aside the criminal law verses (chopping hands, heads, etc lol) which I believe were delivered in the first place because arabs were quite bewakoof kind of people. They had to be guided .

Also Muhammad got revelation from outside (angel gabriel), not from inside , as in case of Guru sahib. which leads me to believe that prophet Muhammad was of not a very high spiritual state. no offense

Well, I'll have a better handle of these issues once I've read it.

Plus, don't use exclamation marks and bold entire paragraphs when conversing with people on forums. It denotes shouting, and it makes you seem like a pendu.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

"Bed kateb kaho mat jhootey. Jhoota jo na beecharey" ~ SGGS

(Do not say that the vedas or semitic books are false . False are those who don't comprehend their essence)

 

Quran is one of those books , like uranium ! You can use it to run electricity plants or make it into atom bombs ! 

Unfortunately for this holy book, it landed amidst a bunch of buffoons ! Who didn't apprehend the underlying essence of it 

 

Who's kaafir ? they say its non muslims. Actually its those humans of any religion who refuse to thank god and are ungrateful. They say "Islam is the only religion acceptable to allah". True that, Islam (submission to will of god) is only religion acceptable to god . Its just that islam can be sikhi or hindu or buddhist too ! 

When you interpret these scriptures and saying in a metaphorical and subtle way, the beauty emerges ! and extremism fades into thin air ! 

Have you read the rest of the Shabad by Bhagat Kabirji? You are no different to those you accuse of not understanding the underlying essence of the scriptures. Please read the rest of the Shabad where Bhagat kabirji criticises halal slaughter, ritual cleansing etc. Btw the Shabad has always been read along with the Sakhi where Bhagat Kabirji criticises those who dismiss other's scriptures without having contemplated them. So there is nothing wrong on stating they do not make sense once you have read them.

Your understanding of Kafir is what the Muslims want non-Muslims in the west to believe until they are able to become a majority and then you will understand what they really mean by kafir. Mohammed killed and threw out all the Jews and Christians out of Arabia. So were all these Jews and Christians ones who refused to thank god and were ungrateful??

Stop playing word games. Islam means submission to the will of Allah not belief in Gods other than Allah. Lets play your wold game further, I know since every person alive in this world is learning something each and every day then that makes them Sikhs! So who says Sikhs are only 25 million, we Sikhs are now 6 Billion! 

Edited by proactive
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

I'll have to read up on all this. I know that Mohammed's assassin was apparently a Jewish woman whose family he'd previously slain, so unless Jews had their hands in creating a version of the Qur'an, I'm getting confused.

meant those muslims who tried to kill the prophet's family after he got poisoned by the Jewish slave 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Alhamdulillah RABBI al aalameen 

(Praise be to the lord (rabb) of the worlds ) . Interestingly Punjabi word "rabb" is here ! 

You got it the wrong way round. The term rabh actually comes from Islam, Panjabis adopted it. 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

I can say a lot about muhammad here . But I am not going to , because I don't think I have that kind of kamaai to lambast a religious leader, even though he was quite controversial . And I don't want PAAP on my head, incase i m wrong lol

Nobody is lambasting or even criticising Mohammed. We're trying to grasp a complex religious situation from the pov of non-Muslims, and we can only go on what their writings say.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

“I saw the prophet – pbuh – sucking on the tongue or the lips of Al-Hassan son of Ali, may the prayers of Allah be upon him. For no tongue or lips that the prophet sucked on will be tormented (by hell fire)

He (the Prophet) lift up his (al Hassan’s) shirt and kissed his (little) <banned word filter activated>..”
روى أنه صلى الله عليه و سلم قبل زبيبة الحسن أو الحسين
He (the prophet) kissed the (little) <banned word filter activated> of al Hassan or al Husein
رأيت النبي صلى الله عليه و سلم فرج ما بين فخذي الحسين و قبل زبيبته
He (the prophet) put Husein’s legs apart and kissed his (little) <banned word filter activated>

Another Hadith. Majma al-Zawa’id, Ali ibn Abu Bakr al-Haythami, 299/9 مجمع الزوائد لعلي بن أبى بكر الهيثمي

رأيت رسول الله صلى الله عليه و سلم فرج ما بين فخذي الحسين و قبل زبيبته
رواه الطبراني و إسناده حسن
translated into English: “I saw the Messenger of Allah pbuh putting Husein’s legs apart and kissing his (little) <banned word filter activated>.”

 

You're chatting nonsense. Show me the beauty in any of the above.

Where did you get that from???

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, dallysingh101 said:

Where did you get that from???

Hadith Number 16245, Volume Title: “The Sayings of the Syrians,” Chapter Title: “Hadith of Mu’awiya Ibn Abu Sufyan."

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

so many times warnings come and yet we know they changed the writings:

فَوَيْلٌ لِّلَّذِينَ يَكْتُبُونَ الْكِتَابَ بِأَيْدِيهِمْ ثُمَّ يَقُولُونَ هَٰذَا مِنْ عِندِ اللَّهِ لِيَشْتَرُوا بِهِ ثَمَنًا قَلِيلًا ۖ فَوَيْلٌ لَّهُم مِّمَّا كَتَبَتْ أَيْدِيهِمْ وَوَيْلٌ لَّهُم مِّمَّا يَكْسِبُونَ - 2:79

 

SAHIH INTERNATIONAL

So woe to those who write the "scripture" with their own hands, then say, "This is from Allah," in order to exchange it for a small price. Woe to them for what their hands have written and woe to them for what they earn.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

BTW , did anyone else notice that the "chola" sikhs wear is quite similar to the arab men's dress . 

I wonder why !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

BTW , did anyone else notice that the "chola" sikhs wear is quite similar to the arab men's dress . 

I wonder why !

Arab and hindu ones open to the side but our ones open centrally (or the rules they are meant to) Arab ones are without Kalian 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

You got it the wrong way round. The term rabh actually comes from Islam, Panjabis adopted it. 

I knew that actually lol . It came in punjabi from arabic.

Other interesting word "nehar" (river) is actually from hebrew ! Nehar in hebrew means river. It probably came via arabic and persian into punjabi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

BTW , did anyone else notice that the "chola" sikhs wear is quite similar to the arab men's dress . 

I wonder why !

And both are similar to the robes of a handful of other communities of millions in that part of the world. What's your point?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your content will need to be approved by a moderator

Guest
You are commenting as a guest. If you have an account, please sign in.
Reply to this topic...

×   You have pasted content with formatting.   Remove formatting

  Only 75 emoticons maximum are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

Loading...



  • Topics

  • Posts

    • The bases of rehat didn't start in Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib ji time.  Bases of rehat is from Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji and its, Ik Onkar praise, hukam, Naam, and simran.  This guy says anyone can do paath.  Then how come he doesn't understand Tvad Parsad Swaiyve?  Swaiyve say bases of shastar vidyia is paath.  If Mona can do paath without Amrit how come they are not taking following the Gurus hukam to keep hair uncut?  This guy speaks of nihangs.  Nihangs say rehit is grown and paath is done by doing praise of Akal Purakh.  This guy must be talking to nidar the giddar who drinks alcohol and this niddars foundation. First 5 Gurus didn't even pick up a sword to fight anyone.  According to this poster this means the gurus never followed the active lifestyle rehit.  Neither did anyone of the Gurmukhs of the first 5 Gurus period.  Therefore these first 5 gurus only did paath which even the hindus and Muslims were doing.  See how ridiculous these extremist liberals thinking has gone.  They want people to stop reading Gurbani.  This makes people more vulnerable and can easily be swayed by these type of people.
    • Guest Jagsaw_Singh
      Southall had it from the early 80's Ranjeet. I didn't but everyone else around me did. People from Hounslow etc would call it the 'Southall innit accent' and I don't think any of us knew at the time how it would go on to become London's dominant accent. I remember at the time feeling bad how I wasn't speaking in the same way that all my friends and cousins had begun to speak. It made me feel bad but I put it down to the fact that I was spending way too little time doing 'southall things' and way too much time doing 'white things' (thinking back...kinda gayish camp things) such as reading poetry books while sitting in Highgate cemetery. I think that was my downfall. If I never did that I would have ended up speaking the way I should have ended up speaking. Thats actually quite interesting because it's always fascinated me how our perception of London manors and neighbourhoods is based entirely on man-made concepts of London Boroughs from the 1960's. For example, some council official in the 60's decided that a London Borough of Hounslow would be made and Brentford would be part of it. So now, when we think of Brentford we automatically associate it with Hounslow just because of that one decision from the 1960's. Historically however, Brentford, along with Boston Manor and Hanwell (W7) were positively joined at the hip with Southall and all 4 were considered extensions of each other. Another interesting point to remember is how we should salute our elders rather than critcise them for the way they pronounce 'Hounslow' and 'Southall'. These old timers from the pends back home have, without even knowing it, proven to be historically 100% accurate. We laughed and criticised them for prounouncing Hounslow as 'Hunslore' and Southall as 'Sultharle',  Nobody could ever have imagined how unbelievably right they are though for Hounslow is a modern day corruption of the original name of the town 'Hundslawe' and Southall is a modern day corruption of the original name of the town 'Sulaale; (Sir De Sulaale was given the plot of land we now know as Southall as a Knight's fee........A Knight's Fee in olde English Law is the equivalent of the olde Punjabi 'Jagir'. The greatest example of a Knights Fee (jagir) in our own Sikh history is the Manjki tract. It's fascinating.....all history is fascinating but this is truly fascinating....because this 'knight's fee' was given to the Dhaliwal Misl that raised the Nishan Sahib over the Red Fort in Delhi and therefore, in one fell swoop, ruled over the whole of the Indian sub-continent. To appease the Sikh misl, the mughals gave them a jagir (knight's fee) of a tract of land in Doaba. That land became to be known as the manjki tract and it;s inhabitants the manjki jats. Where it becomes really interesting is that 95% of the pioneer Sikhs in Southall, Canada, California and what was in the late 1800's the single biggest Sikh point of immigration: Australia (or 'Telia' as it became to be known in Punjabi) came from the Manjki tract) Oh definately full-blown 'Cockney' in the traditional sense Ranjeet. My mum's a classic example but its the same with many of my uncles and aunties born in Southall in the 1950's, 60's and early 70's.......From mid 70's onwards its a very different story. Southall's history actually gives us many clues as to how this phenomena came about. In the early 1900's right up untill the 60's it was a massive industrial hub. It was famous for 2 things...firstly for being the lunatic asylum capital of England and secondly for having 59% of it devoted to industry. Ignoring the major industries that chose Southall, particularly the International American brands that chose Southall as its base such as Johnson and Johnson, Quaker Oats and the German car maker Daimler Benz.....for the subject of this conversation we need to remember 2 things: the fact that Southall was a railway town and, most importantly, the Grand Union Canal (River Brent). The water, to be honest with you, defines the history of Southall and thus the history of the Sikhs of Southall more than anything else. For example, I'm sure everyone here has visited the massive and iconic Havelock Road Singh Sabha Gurdwara but who here realises that the very spot the Gurdwara sits was one, because of it's closeness to the water, was the site of Wedgewood's China plates factory complex ?  I mention that partly because that type of industry explains why Southall attracted so many Wesh people but obviously I'm digressing here because we're trying to explain the cockney element. From 1900 to 1930 (again because of Southall's river/canal connection) more than a dozen major brick, weaving and other factories moved out of Shoreditch in the East End of London and set themselves up in Southall. Their workers came with them. And their voices came with them too.
    • for my well-practiced ear (since I was born within sound of bow bells ( technically a cockney)  southall is more like the Essex accent rather than the true cockney accent (no apples and pears, jaffas or mutton phrases etc) . which makes sense as central line is direct link to the two halfs . One classic telltale sign is the constant use of innit as punctuation, you don't get that in Cockney it's used purely in sentence context. I agree there is a difference in vowel use and cadence south of the Water , I did three years there ,new cross, new cross gate, brockley (eldest born at Lewisham hospital),  it didn't take.