Kira

Has anyone here read the Quran

115 posts in this topic

As the title goes has anyone actually read the Quran here? I've seen quite alot of people debating about various quotes from it but all of them seem to be from rather biased websites, its interesting how so many people just throw these quotes out but im genuinely curious if anyone has read any portion of it or even any of the Hadiths.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm going to start in a short while. I can't form concrete opinions based on second hand knowledge. It's not the right thing to do.

If i start dropping Islamic terminology like PBUH, etc, in my posts, then you know they've got me, lol. 

Allahu Akbar!! 

Edited by MisterrSingh
3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, MisterrSingh said:

I'm going to start in a short while. I can't form concrete opinions based on second hand knowledge. It's not the right thing to do.

If i start dropping Islamic terminology like PBUH, etc, in my posts, then you know they've got me, lol. 

Allahu Akbar!! 

I;m tempted to order the Quran from India in Gurmukhi script with proper meanings too lol, but im pretty sure my family there might start telling my parents I'm turning into a muslim. 

I would ask my muslim classmates but In all honesty I want more neutral opinions of it, not ones forged in the depths of childhood brainwashing lol.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I read the Quran a few years ago, wasn't particularly impressed.

Read the version of the quran sanctioned by Saudi Arabia, from real Arabs not our converted subcontinental cousins.

The Hadiths are far worse.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The one most common argument put forward by Muslims to a non-Muslim who's read the Qur'an and the Hadiths, and isn't having any of it is, "But you need to read it in Arabic to appreciate it's purity and depth!" So begins a never-ending process of wrapping the reader in a web of activity to deflect criticism. 

I'll get a hold of what's the commonly accepted best English translation. 

Edited by MisterrSingh
2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

The one most common argument put forward by Muslims to a non-Muslim who's read the Qur'an and the Hadiths, and isn't having any of it is, "But you need to read it in Arabic to appreciate it's purity and depth!" So begins a never-ending process of wrapping the reader in a web of activity to deflect criticism. 

I'll get a hold of what's the commonly accepted best English translation. 

Precisely. It's no different to saying that in order to properly study the Vikings, you gotta start worshipping Odin. 

28 minutes ago, Kira said:

As the title goes has anyone actually read the Quran here? I've seen quite alot of people debating about various quotes from it but all of them seem to be from rather biased websites, its interesting how so many people just throw these quotes out but im genuinely curious if anyone has read any portion of it or even any of the Hadiths.

Some, but, I suspect, not nearly as many as the treasure trove of Islamic charchas on this forum might suggest. 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

I read the Quran a few years ago, wasn't particularly impressed.

Read the version of the quran sanctioned by Saudi Arabia, from real Arabs not our converted subcontinental cousins.

The Hadiths are far worse.

another version? I was under the illusion there was only 1 version. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I read a fair bit of a translation by Marmaduke Pickhall when I was a teenager. It wasn't too impressive. Seemed quite dark in places. 

Hadiths are quite interesting as well. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

The one most common argument put forward by Muslims to a non-Muslim who's read the Qur'an and the Hadiths, and isn't having any of it is, "But you need to read it in Arabic to appreciate it's purity and depth!" So begins a never-ending process of wrapping the reader in a web of activity to deflect criticism. 

I'll get a hold of what's the commonly accepted best English translation. 

I think that is a valid point. 

I read Gurbani in English translations for decades before I finally made the effort to grasp Gurmukhi and interact with Gurbani in the native lingua. The two experiences are so different, it's like experiencing two different texts/experiences.  

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Kira said:

another version? I was under the illusion there was only 1 version. 

You should ask the Saudis.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Kira said:

As the title goes has anyone actually read the Quran here?

Yes. I read it, and couldn't understand why peopple would become muslims because of it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have read it , some of it only . An english translation by Yusuf Ali I guess . Its quite a small book . 

It has 114 chapters in it. The first one is called "Al Fatihah" (The opening) . 

Fatiha in arabic means "opening" or "victory" (fateh).

 

I even remember it in arabic to an extent as the first chapter is small lol . Like our mool mantar.

Bismillah Ar-rahman Ar-raheem 

(In the name of allah, The merciful, the compassionate)

 

Alhamdulillah RABBI al aalameen 

(Praise be to the lord (rabb) of the worlds ) . Interestingly Punjabi word "rabb" is here ! 

 

Ar rahman Ar raheem 

(Oh merciful, Oh compassionate)

 

Maaliki Yaumi id-deen

(The master of the day of judgement)

 

Iyyaaka na'abudu waa iyaaka nasta'een 

(You alone we worship and you alone we seek for help)

 

Ihdin assira'at al mustaqeem Siraatal ladheena an ‘amta’ alaihim
Ghairil maghduubi’ alaihim waladaaleen

Aameen

(Guide us on the straight path,
the path of those who have received your grace;
not the path of those who have brought down wrath, nor of those who wander astray.
Amen.)

 

Its beautiful , not at all violent ! 

 

At some places later, its quire scary . Esp chapter 5 which is where I guess laws related to robbery, adultery , etc etc is

It clearly states "As for the thief, cut off the hand and feet from opposite side" BUT also stresses on forgiveness if the thief repents .

In chapter 2 , al-baqaara (The cow) its about dietary laws . Don't eat this, eat this only . Laws are similar to that of jews !

 

Its said "meccan verses" (earlier verses) were peaceful, the "madinan verses" (later verses, muhammad claimed to have received by angel gabriel in madina when he grew in community , were more intolerant and scathing) 

 

Edited by AjeetSinghPunjabi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Kira said:

As the title goes has anyone actually read the Quran here? I've seen quite alot of people debating about various quotes from it but all of them seem to be from rather biased websites, its interesting how so many people just throw these quotes out but im genuinely curious if anyone has read any portion of it or even any of the Hadiths.

Bits and pieces, (from one of the pro-Islamic websites, not one of those which picks the worst parts), and from the english translation, (I don't know Arabic), it seemed boring to say the least. If I'm going to be reading a story book, I'd rather read Harry Potter or something as silly like that. Never read the Hadiths directly; however, from what I've heard it's just a Maryada.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, chatanga said:

Yes. I read it, and couldn't understand why peopple would become muslims because of it.

I thought we as sikhs , our history is evident of fact that Islam always thrived on forcible conversion.

People might not have converted voluntarily but at the tip of sword or by softer coercions like "money", "protection", being tax-free etc 

And ofcourse the whole mutilation (sunnat) aspect of religion makes me cringe ! 

Glad I am a sikh 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Jacfsing2 said:

Bits and pieces, (from one of the pro-Islamic websites, not one of those which picks the worst parts), and from the english translation, (I don't know Arabic), it seemed boring to say the least. If I'm going to be reading a story book, I'd rather read Harry Potter or something as silly like that. Never read the Hadiths directly; however, from what I've heard it's just a Maryada.

I don't think its always boring ! Its quite inspiring at a few places , but then again its very limited . 

 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

I think that is a valid point. 

I read Gurbani in English translations for decades before I finally made the effort to grasp Gurmukhi and interact with Gurbani in the native lingua. The two experiences are so different, it's like experiencing two different texts/experiences.  

Perhaps that has something to do with the style and level of competence of the translator? I've read the English versions of the major Sikh banis, and I've got to say they are underwhelming to say the least. There's none of the poetry and the flow of the original Gurmukhi, which is understandable, but as a layman who appreciates the English language I'm pretty certain someone with a flair for the English language could create a superb English translation of SGGS Ji. Even in terms of grammar, the English translations are the typical broken Indian-English taught in Indian schools. It's actually quite a shame that for someone who might only be capable of reading English would come away disappointed in the English translation.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

You should ask the Saudis.

One of the first things uttered from any Muslims breath is that the QUran has remained unchanged since it was inscribed. That snippet of knowledge was shocking to say the least.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

Perhaps that has something to do with the style and level of competence of the translator? I've read the English versions of the major Sikh banis, and I've got to say they are underwhelming to say the least. There's none of the poetry and the flow of the original Gurmukhi, which is understandable, but as a layman who appreciates the English language I'm pretty certain someone with a flair for the English language could create a superb English translation of SGGS Ji. Even in terms of grammar, the English translations are the typical broken Indian-English taught in Indian schools. It's actually quite a shame that for someone who might only be capable of reading English would come away disappointed in the English translation.

First limitation is "HE" . God is not a he . But we translate it that way. Some might think God in sikhi is a male.

Secondly , how do you translate "gurprasad" and some terms which are unique to sikhi ! 

Also "sochei soch na hovei" , soche means "washing" , as washrooms in india are also referred as "sochalay" .

Guru Sahib said "Soche soch na hovei je soche lakh vaar" (Washing , at tirth is not going to wash inside even if you washed 10000 times) but we translated soche to "think" and so the substandard translation was "By thinking about him a hundred times, he can't be reduced to thought) .

Btw, this "soche" being "cleaning" was pointed out by white sikhs.

Surprising how they understand it more than we do !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Kira said:

One of the first things uttered from any Muslims breath is that the QUran has remained unchanged since it was inscribed. That snippet of knowledge was shocking to say the least.

There were 7 versions.

The 4th Caliph Othman had to burn 6 of them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Quran is both the most over hyped and the most disappointing book I had the misfortune to attempt to read. Just read a few chapters and you will understand why only the brain dead would believe that it is from God.  

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In recent times my mind constantly returns to one question regarding Islam and our Guru Sahibs: if the Qur'an and its teachings are as their scriptures show them to be, why were our Guru Sahibs not unequivocal in their condemnation of the religion, its Prophet, and its teachings? How can the authors of our Bani possibly be so forgiving of the content of the Qur'an? I don't get it at all.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

Perhaps that has something to do with the style and level of competence of the translator? I've read the English versions of the major Sikh banis, and I've got to say they are underwhelming to say the least. There's none of the poetry and the flow of the original Gurmukhi, which is understandable, but as a layman who appreciates the English language I'm pretty certain someone with a flair for the English language could create a superb English translation of SGGS Ji. Even in terms of grammar, the English translations are the typical broken Indian-English taught in Indian schools. It's actually quite a shame that for someone who might only be capable of reading English would come away disappointed in the English translation.

Translations should only ever be a limited introduction (or gateway) to the original texts. Nothing more, or less. 

There is something about the rhythm and flow of the originals that goes beyond semantics. It's a vibration. A frequency. 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

In recent times my mind constantly returns to one question regarding Islam and our Guru Sahibs: if the Qur'an and its teachings are as their scriptures show them to be, why were our Guru Sahibs not unequivocal in their condemnation of the religion, its Prophet, and its teachings? How can the authors of our Bani possibly be so forgiving of the content of the Qur'an? I don't get it at all.

In bani, our Gurus talk about the muslim not really about Islam or the prophet in particular. 

At least that is how I see it.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, Kira said:

One of the first things uttered from any Muslims breath is that the QUran has remained unchanged since it was inscribed. That snippet of knowledge was shocking to say the least.

and a blatant lie because their were 14 versions at the time of utman and large portions were committed to memory by individuals they were interviewed to collate the quran verses. NOne of 14 were complete, but Utman somehow created one and destroyed ALL first hand sources

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, dallysingh101 said:

Translations should only ever be a limited introduction (or gateway) to the original texts. Nothing more, or less. 

There is something about the rhythm and flow of the originals that goes beyond semantics. It's a vibration. A frequency. 

Yes, i appreciate that aspect of it; it's all about the iambic metres and things of that nature, and how those linguistic measures evoke certain emotions and sensations beyond the process of simple reading and comprehension, isn't it?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your content will need to be approved by a moderator

Guest
You are commenting as a guest. If you have an account, please sign in.
Reply to this topic...

×   You have pasted content with formatting.   Remove formatting

  Only 75 emoticons maximum are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

Loading...

  • Topics

  • Posts

    • Blase means to be indifferent or unconcerned. However, you perceive my writing on Dasam Bani being reintroduced to be both nonchalant (why don't we bring in another French word) but also emotional and angry at the same time. That kind of makes for an oxymoron; contradictory terms.  When attempting to have any genuine and fruitful discussion I have experienced it is helpful to not speculate or make conjecture about the viewpoints of another. If curious or in doubt, just ask; ask with the innocent interest of a child. Other genuine level-headed people will gladly oblige. Fools like myself may otherwise find injury in your guesswork.   Bringing in Samparda Kathavachaks fixes the symptom not the illness. The root problem that will fester and multiply is unaddressed. Is this a strategy for the long term that will bring unity and togetherness in the Panth? No. I have posted an excerpt of my last post on this topic below for your convenience, often my arguments become TL;DR.     Again, conjecture and scorn for a person you genuinely want to have dialogue with may not be useful. Some may misinterpret your heartfelt intentions.   If I'm not mistaken, it was rescinded after just two years!  Here is the difference: When the Sikhs took the jagir from the Mughals, they took it after deliberation, discussion, and the approval of the Sarbat Khalsa Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma has built no such discussion and consensus building into his strategy, not even with the Sant Samaj. Heaps of them condemn his political choices.  Getting the discourse changed to Gurmat is good. But the underlying problems remain unaddressed; problems that do the most to hold the Panth back as outlined in my above post.  The jagir allowed the Sikhs to consolidate different jathas under the leadership of Kapur Singh into the Dal Khalsa. Factions were brought together.  They used the political calm to develop their autonomous power and establish their sovereignty This was political power and control that they were able to grow for the Panth. The jagir was taken away very quickly, but look at what they accomplished in that time. The Khalsa was brought together in unity to fight for our future prosperity.  I highly doubt the SIkhs who had been hunted down by Zakariya Khan suddenly became enthralled by his friendship. They took the jagir in a collective, panthic decision and likely knew they could be double-crossed. But they mustered their forces and were in a stronger position for when it did happen.  In all the major issues of the Panth that I have outlined in my previous posts, Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma has made little headway in ameliorating them.  No political autonomy is established for the Panth. The Indian government regulated the SGPC, the SGPC in turn is run by Badal and the Shiromani Akali Dal (Badal). There is no autonomy or control of the Panth in its own affairs, we are led by the string where the political elite wish to go.  As I stated previously: Baba Harnam Singh Dhumma's strategy gives the Panth no autonomy, no control, and he has not pushed forward the Panth's interests in any worthwhile long-lasting way.   
    • It is by Kavi Santokh Singh Suraj Parkesh Granth
    • This is exactly the same thing which Muslim Kings and army was saying about Sikhs a few centuries ago. In fact, these Muslim rulers were saying that no Sikh is left, however, Sikhs did become rulers of the land after couple of Genocides. I am not saying it is going to be easy with Hindu India, but you are under estimating Sikhs. 
    • Sakhi from  Subedar Baghel Singh “Jivan Anubhav” his autobiography. He says one day after his simran he sat down to rest. His Astral body (sookham sahreer) separated from his body went through the roof at a very high speed. His Astal body left the earth behind and ended up in a place where there were various Sant mandalis. He was surprised to see himself in two separate place but mere thought of his body brought him back inside his body. Similar stories can also be found in pachmi parkash jeeven sant Karam Singh Hotimardan and Se Kinehya Jeeveni Sant Harnam Singh Rampurkhera.