Was Sheikh Farid Ji a Muslim?

[jkvlondon]

23 minutes ago, Sukhvirk76 said:

I believe he was a Muslim and have never see any evidence or until today heard of him being recognized as anything different.. Other than the more recent pronouncements and actions of the Pakistan taliban who approach the label Muslim in the same way you are proposing here that it may only be applied exclusively to people who tick certain boxes and that his practice and approach to Islam was heretical.. If you were to ask many many Pakistani panjabi Muslims they would without hesitation say he was a Muslim 

His followers are sufis and his writings are in the Tradition of sufism ...

[BhForce]

6 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

He was as much a practicing Muslim as Jesus was a practicing Jew, or Guru Nanak Dev Ji was a stringent adherent to the Hindu religion. The bani Farid Ji authored makes this fact unequivocally clear. 

I just read this again without looking at the user name, and I thought that somebody was actually saying that Guru Nanak Dev ji was a strict adherent of Hinduism. Then I realized my mistake :). 

Just to clarify for the one hundred lurkers that read this board for every one poster: user @MisterrSingh is saying that Jesus was not practicing Jew and that Guru Nanak Sahib was not a Hindu.

[BhForce]

2 hours ago, Sukhvirk76 said:

So now you have the right to define him since it undermines your own identity tropes? 

1, Well, @MisterrSingh can speak for himself, but as for me, yes, I do think I can define Muslim, since I'm the originator of this debate thread.

2. I gave two definitions of Muslim above (first, someone of Muslim parentage and second, believer in the Quran and Hadiths). Which one do you prefer, or can you fit Farid ji into either one?

3. If, for some reason, you don't like either of these definitions (please give reasons why), go ahead and proffer your own.

4. We're not really defining him as X or Y, but rather defining "Muslim" and then debating whether he fits into that definition. I already said he's a Muslim under the first definition. I already ceded that ground, and we shouldn't have to debate that. I also ceded the ground that he may have been a Muslim at some point in his life. What I proposed is that he was not Muslim at the end, with "Muslim" being how I defined it.

[BhForce]

1 hour ago, Sukhvirk76 said:

. If you were to ask many many Pakistani panjabi Muslims they would without hesitation say he was a Muslim 

Know who else they think was a Muslim?

Guru Nanak Dev ji Maharaj.

So does the infamous Dr. Zakir Naik.

[BhForce]

1 minute ago, Sukhvirk76 said:

I think the whole is he isn't he a quite boring actually.. 

This would be undermined by the number of posts on this issue in this thread, and the two threads referenced above.

1 minute ago, Sukhvirk76 said:

What I think is more interesting is why it matters.

Why it matters is that some Sikhs (and perhaps non-Sikhs) want to use the mis-impression of Sheikh ji being (in the end) a Muslim as a reason for an Islamophilic agenda.

5 minutes ago, Sukhvirk76 said:

If he was Muslim does that undervalue sikhi? 

Well, if he were to achieve enlightenment without the Guru, then the question would naturally arise in the minds of Sikhs (and non-Sikhs), "What's the need of the Guru--and of Sikhi?"  No Guru needed, no Sikhism needed either.

[Kira]

1 minute ago, BhForce said:

This would be undermined by the number of posts on this issue in this thread, and the two threads referenced above.

Why it matters is that some Sikhs (and perhaps non-Sikhs) want to use the mis-impression of Sheikh ji being (in the end) a Muslim as a reason for an Islamophilic agenda.

Well, if he were to achieve enlightenment without the Guru, then the question would naturally arise in the minds of Sikhs (and non-Sikhs), "What's the need of the Guru--and of Sikhi?"  No Guru needed, no Sikhism needed either.

it also opens up several contradictions, if Farid Ji was a muslim does that mean NamDev Ji was a Vishnu follower? if so then why would his bani be included within Guru Granth Sahib Ji when Guru Sahib already stated that following these Devta won't help you reach Akaal. If Farid Ji was a muslim then we have to accept that Islam as a doctrine is also right (afterall why would Farid Ji be one) which would also have to imply that Muhammed was the final Prophet and that Islam is the only true religion. If that is the case then why did Guru Gobind Singh Ji speak against Muhammed and how Kalyug corrupted him. 

[S4NGH]

1 hour ago, SinghSabha1699 said:

Not at all brother. Mere acceptance of one God (who may be called Allah, Ram or Vaheguru or other True Names interchangably) does not mean that Dhan Dhan Baba Farid Ji Maharaj self-identified as a Muslim.

In order to be Muslim the second line of the Muslim shahada referring to Prophet Muhammad is compulsory. True Sufi's (like Baba Farid Ji Maharaj) being the non-Muslims they are obviously wholeheartedly reject the Prophet Muhammad on account of the well documented and universally acknowledged acts of terrorism, slavery, genocide, paedophilia and misogyny that the Prophet openly engaged in without remorse. Remember in Pakistan the Muslims make the similarly false allegation that Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj were Muslim.

Think about it logically Mr Virk.

Can any Sikh ever sit comfortable when such an accusation is labelled against one of our greatest Gurmukhs (who were so blessed that they authored the Truth of Gurbani)!? 

Accusing Baba Farid Ji Maharaj of being Muslim is the most vile accusation thinkable for a Sikh to read. Though to be fair to you it may be that your belief is that all religions are equal and whether one religion condones slavery, terrorism, paedophilia, genocide and misogyny is merely something that should be ignored and is perfectly acceptable to accuse Dhan Dhan Baba Farid Ji Maharaj of supporting.

This myth cooked up Mughal scribes and the followers of Jinnah that Baba Farid Ji Maharaj were Muslim needs to be destroyed. The nonsensical belief that the 1st Sikh in history (Bhai Mardana Ji) despite being the most ardent Guru ka Sikh somehow should be labelled as a non-Sikh is horrible to read (not that you have said this - but others mistakenly have). And similarly in relation to Dhan Dhan Baba Kabir Ji Maharaj who positively despised the falsehood of Islam (and yet are somehow labelled as belonging to beliefs that they repeatedly exposed as falsehoods). It's crucial we as Sikhs do not inadvertently sully the great names of Gurmukhs who rejected terrorism, slavery, genocide, paedophilia and misogyny as openly glorified in the Holy Quran.

Who was the first Sikh in history? ?

[BhForce]

23 hours ago, S4NGH said:

The last time I checked, Bhagat Farid Ji was a muslim missionary,

You make it seem like Sheikh Fareed ji was Dr. Zakir Naik, just without a Youtube account.

The fact is that Sheikh ji was hated by the Muslims of his time.

I have before me a book entitled "Janam Sakhi Sheikh Farid Ji" by Giani Tarlok Singh published by Bhai Javahar Singh Kirpal Singh and Co.

Chapter 13 is "Opposition to Baba Farid". On page 45 it says: "The Qazi of Ajodhan (Pakpattan) wrote to the senior Qazi of Multan (Qazi ul Kazat) to say 'There has come here a Sufi dervish, he does all his conduct against the Sharia. In the mosque he starts dancing himself, and has dance done to Kwallis (poems/songs). Write to me to tell what punishment should be given to this infidel (Kaffir), all the Muslims are pained, he is to be removed from the mosque. The Hindus used to become Muslim, now because of him, their spines are stiffened. He makes a show of miracles.'" (Emphasis added by me.)

Now, I'm not going to vouch for the allegatinos that the Pakpattan Qazi makes against Farid ji, because even Gurbani states Qazis are known to lie, but it is quite clear that Sheik ji was not only erring against Sharia in a few respects, but was totally against it.

Quite clearly, he was not a Muslim, but an infidel.

[S4NGH]

8 hours ago, BhForce said:

You make it seem like Sheikh Fareed ji was Dr. Zakir Naik, just without a Youtube account.

The fact is that Sheikh ji was hated by the Muslims of his time.

I have before me a book entitled "Janam Sakhi Sheikh Farid Ji" by Giani Tarlok Singh published by Bhai Javahar Singh Kirpal Singh and Co.

Chapter 13 is "Opposition to Baba Farid". On page 45 it says: "The Qazi of Ajodhan (Pakpattan) wrote to the senior Qazi of Multan (Qazi ul Kazat) to say 'There has come here a Sufi dervish, he does all his conduct against the Sharia. In the mosque he starts dancing himself, and has dance done to Kwallis (poems/songs). Write to me to tell what punishment should be given to this infidel (Kaffir), all the Muslims are pained, he is to be removed from the mosque. The Hindus used to become Muslim, now because of him, their spines are stiffened. He makes a show of miracles.'" (Emphasis added by me.)

Now, I'm not going to vouch for the allegatinos that the Pakpattan Qazi makes against Farid ji, because even Gurbani states Qazis are known to lie, but it is quite clear that Sheik ji was not only erring against Sharia in a few respects, but was totally against it.

Quite clearly, he was not a Muslim, but an infidel.

The fact that I havent responded to you should be sufficient to indicate my complete lack of interest in dialogue with yourself regarding the topic. Stop quoting me, engage with someone else. Cheerio!

[genie]

Basically no he wasnt muslim. Not according to mainstream sunni and shia ideological sects who form around 95% of muslim populations.

He would have been and is still considered a heretic (by majority of muslims) and out of the fold of islam for not following the sunnah/hadiths (in his own words he doesn't believe in islamic orthodox beliefs).

Was he a Sikh? Yes he would have come under the defination of a Sikh. All the sufi saints and hindu bhagats in SGGS Ji are not mainstream muslims or mainstream hindu's they had begun the path into forming Sikhi.