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Mahakaal96

Why Muslims should never be trusted

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13 hours ago, Sukhvirk76 said:

The quip at the beginning of my response was exactly that. And since it is called Harmandir or rather har mandir it is technically a mandir which is a generic term for a place of worship in North India it is not specific to any religion although I agree it is not used as much within the Sikh lexicon. However Har mandir does mean the temple of har. 

I also in my post clarified that there is no problem going to a mandir for a Sikh to be respectful but not engage in idol worship 

Should sikhs refrain from going to any other place of worship other than a gurudwaras 

Mandir has many meanings, it can also mean Place, dwelling etc not just temple. 

 

@Mahakaal96 Your thread speaks the truth, but I wonder if you'd be able to upload the verses directly from the Quran online or something. A-lot of people think the website you linked is rather well biased. I'm not fluent in the scripture so I can't do it myself.

Edited by Kira
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Guest Jacfsing2
2 hours ago, Kira said:

@Mahakaal96 Your thread speaks the truth, but I wonder if you'd be able to upload the verses directly from the Quran online or something. A-lot of people think the website you linked is rather well biased. I'm not fluent in the scripture so I can't do it myself.

The website he uploaded from is biased; however, everything that was said is legit. Guru Sahib himself said not to trust any oaths of the Quran in Zafarnama.

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12 hours ago, Preeet said:

Exactly, the real name is Hari Mandir. 

If such is the case.  Then in Gurbani, when Alluh is used to praise God.  Guru sahib is praising Alluh of the Koran.  

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1 hour ago, Jacfsing2 said:

The website he uploaded from is biased; however, everything that was said is legit. Guru Sahib himself said not to trust any oaths of the Quran in Zafarnama.

I'm not doubting Guru Gobind Singh Ji, not by a long shot. If Guru Sahib said that then obviously he had a legitimate reason and as Guru Pita's kids we should obey it, the main thing I want to put to bed is the quotes from the Quran. 

Edited by Kira

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16 minutes ago, Akalifauj said:

If such is the case.  Then in Gurbani, when Alluh is used to praise God.  Guru sahib is praising Alluh of the Koran.  

There's not a single mention of it ever being called Harimandir, its always Harmandir in all the texts, the Hari mandir she'd rather we worship at is this one. The same people who preach this narrative ended up putting moortis inside Harmandir Sahib.

https://www.tripadvisor.com/Attraction_Review-g635748-d2008479-Reviews-Sri_Hari_Mandir_Temple-Porbandar_Gujarat.html

She's right though, every time we see the word Har in Gurbani we should change it to Hari, I mean remember what happened to the last person who tried to change Gurbani...yeah....he sort of got kicked out and ended up getting burned by his own chelley.

 

 

Edited by Kira
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9 minutes ago, Preeet said:

Vaheguru ji Ka Khalsa
Vaheguru ji Ki Fateh ji

You claim it`s not called `Hari Mandir` if I``m not mistaken.. right? Now I can`t read gurmukhi, but I can read hindi. Just look at the name ``ਹਰਿਮੰਦਰ ਸਾਹਿਬ``! The danda with the head pointing towards the right gives an i sound ``ਹਰਿ`` the one in between that word.. Would that not spell out Hari then? Rather than Har being ਹਰ

That sounded funny Preet, "Now I can`t read gurmukhi, but I can read hindi."  So how did you read the Gurmukhi ? 😏

Found this:

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Preeet said:

Vaheguru ji Ka Khalsa
Vaheguru ji Ki Fateh ji

You claim it`s not called `Hari Mandir` if I``m not mistaken.. right? Now I can`t read gurmukhi, but I can read hindi. Just look at the name ``ਹਰਿਮੰਦਰ ਸਾਹਿਬ``! The danda with the head pointing towards the right gives an i sound ``ਹਰਿ`` the one in between that word.. Would that not spell out Hari then? Rather than Har being ਹਰ

There's a difference. It's not ਹਰੀ which is what you keep trying to force, the word is ਹਰਿ , the sound is softer and completely different. Maybe an idea might be to learn Gurmukhi script before coming on here and lecturing others about what the real name of anything is. If you're mispronouncing a basic word like that I shudder to think what you're doing to other ones. Seek out a Taksali Teacher and get proper Santhiya. That is, if you're willing to become a student and not act like an all knowing master.

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Guest Jacfsing2

My Gurmukhi level is really basic, so I won't be responding to the whole pronunciation point, but it is wise not to be posting stuff like you know how to pronounce it, when you don't. But I do know from the limited knowledge I do know that Gurmukhi evolved not from Hindi, but rather the language of the people of Mahadesha. It's more similar to the Middle-Eastern languages than Hindi or Sanskrit, (they even sound different).

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10 minutes ago, Preeet said:

Vaheguru ji Ka Khalsa
Vaheguru ji Ki Fateh ji

Im by far not a master when it comes to gurmukhi! In Hindi the danda when pointed towards the left gives an hard ee sound, while pointing towards the right gives an ih sound. I noticed with all aryan&dravid languages they use those same dandas and they all give the same sounds. When it comes to hari in harimandir, I think you have misunderstood what I was saying. I pronounce it as `har-ih mandir``, not har-ee mandir``.

English and Gurmukhi are 2 separate languages with separate sounds and utterations. Hari <- like that will always be  pronounced wrong, that's why Harmandir is far more accurate but still not the same as the pure Gurmukhi of it. 

 

Edited by Kira
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4 minutes ago, Jacfsing2 said:

My Gurmukhi level is really basic, so I won't be responding to the whole pronunciation point, but it is wise not to be posting stuff like you know how to pronounce it, when you don't. But I do know from the limited knowledge I do know that Gurmukhi evolved not from Hindi, but rather the language of the people of Mahadesha. It's more similar to the Middle-Eastern languages than Hindi or Sanskrit, (they even sound different).

Yeah I've noticed that too. Though I'm not an expert on this, not by a long shot.

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Just now, Preeet said:

Vaheguru ji Ka Khalsa
Vaheguru ji Ki Fateh ji

Of course, this is why I suggest to everyone who cannot read gurmukhi to do what I did.. Play a recording of whichever respected paath you wish to recite, and read it with english transliterations while listening.. & then after some time then start to recite it outloud. That`s what worked for me.

or a better idea might be learn Gurmukhi? That method was only for those who were illiterate or speechless. Reading it with English Translations will result in someone completely making a butchery of it. 

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6 hours ago, Preeet said:

Vaheguru ji Ka Khalsa
Vaheguru ji Ki Fateh ji

Allah in the kuran is also praising GOD. I have no issues with anyone praising GOD in any ethical way. I do not know Muhhammad ji, and his teachings could have been misinterpreted, so I would rather keep no opinion of him rather than just guessing. My only concern is for me to follow my own dharma. Allah is a name of God, but we have been instructed to do jaap of Sri Vaheguru during amrit sanchar since it was made from the 4 yugas. Vaheguru Vaheguru Vaheguru

You are in your own league.  Let me guess you were the special student throughout your life.  You still have this title here.

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Funny how preet claims to be amritdhari and yet follows mandirs and idols and jyotirlingas and what not.

People often say they follow everything and are not restricted to one religion.

Why don't same people put their one leg in one boat and other leg in other boat when crossing a lake ?

why they only sit in one boat then ? because they know they will drown. Stick to one path , be it sanatan or sikhi. both are great.

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There is so much muslim hatred in this thread .

If we were really so cautious of muslims , why then so many cases of our girls being eloped by muslim boys ? 

also most people seem to be missing that Gurbani has its own definition of muslim . A whole shabad where a new definition of muslim is given in terms of old muslim terminologies. 

Secondly , a muslim in truest sense (as per islam itself) is "one who submits to will of Allah (Waheguru)" . then in that sense all bhagats and all shaheeds and all of true sikhs are "muslims" .

Sufis are not universally peaceful . Shaik Ahmad Sirhindi who got Guru Arjan dev martyred was a sufi . Sufis believe there are 4 layers to reaching truth. Shariat, Tariqat , Marfat and Haqeeqat . Those who're serious in their spiritual quest will obviously be peaceful 

Edited by AjeetSinghPunjabi

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On 11/04/2017 at 1:21 PM, Mahakaal96 said:

Spot on. In general sikhs are a very honest, non discriminating, trustworthy & friendly people who treat everyone equal regardless of religion etc... however the rest of humanity is not like that & we need to smarten up.

Muslims are the worst because it is quite simply a part of their belief that everyone is not equal.. and that those who are not Muslim (kafirs) can be lied to, exploited, raped & even killed without the risk of any retribution from god.... there's a reason why Guru Gobind Singh Ji exposed their lieing & deceitful ways at Anandpur Sahib when the Muslim swore oaths on the Koran only to then break them at the first available oppurtunity. Guru Sahib did that to open our eyes & to make us aware.

I urge all my brothers & sisters on this site to be more aware, cautious & extremely careful when having any kind of dealing with any Muslim. It's a testament to the greatness of our Guru that we as a community are very tolerant & respectful towards all... but our Guru also taught us to be budhi maan (of discerning intellect) & raj neetic (politically aware).

its good to be cautious , but not good to hate 1.2 billion people with same brush ! gross generalization. Indian and Paki muslims must def be having beef against sikhs. A UAE muslim I doubt has anything against sikhs

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    • Here is a pauri by Guru Nanak Dev ji which addresses some of these issues: ਪਉੜੀ ॥ ਸਾਰੰਗ ਕੀ ਵਾਰ: (ਮਃ ੪) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਅੰਗ ੧੨੩੭    ਆਪੇ ਆਪਿ ਨਿਰੰਜਨਾ ਜਿਨਿ ਆਪੁ ਉਪਾਇਆ ॥ The Immaculate Lord Himself, by Himself, created Himself. ਆਪੇ ਖੇਲੁ ਰਚਾਇਓਨੁ ਸਭੁ ਜਗਤੁ ਸਬਾਇਆ ॥ He Himself created the whole drama of all the world's play. ਤ੍ਰੈ ਗੁਣ ਆਪਿ ਸਿਰਜਿਅਨੁ ਮਾਇਆ ਮੋਹੁ ਵਧਾਇਆ ॥ He Himself formed the three gunas, the three qualities; He increased the attachment to Maya. ਗੁਰ ਪਰਸਾਦੀ ਉਬਰੇ ਜਿਨ ਭਾਣਾ ਭਾਇਆ ॥ By Guru's Grace, they are saved - those who love the Will of God. ਨਾਨਕ ਸਚੁ ਵਰਤਦਾ ਸਭ ਸਚਿ ਸਮਾਇਆ ॥੧॥ O Nanak, the True Lord is pervading everywhere; all are contained within the True Lord. ||1||   The shabad states that God created the creation and maya (illusion). The Guru grants Grace and saves those who love God's will. Those who love God's Will will be saved. Meanwhile, the likes of your "friend" will remain entangled in fruitless philosophical arguments. Note: I may quibble with the translation of the first line. Some scholars think that when Gurbani talks of God "creating Himself", it's referring to establishing himself in the Universe.
    • If your "friend" wants to know exactly "how" God created the creation, I would say that that's a totally worthless question. Why does he need to know "how" God created the world and infused with Maya (3 qualities and 5 vices)? Is he planning to create a universe anytime soon? About such philosophical exercises, Guru ji says: ਸਹਸ ਸਿਆਣਪਾ ਲਖ ਹੋਹਿ ਤ ਇਕ ਨ ਚਲੈ ਨਾਲਿ ॥ 
      Hundreds of thousands of clever thoughts, but not even one of them will go along with you in the end. 
    • Your Christian "friend"''s multiple questions basically just boil down to this one question. The answer is simply that God desired to create the world (Maya) as his divine play, called "khel". Principal Sahib Singh, his his Darpan, quoted many lines from Gurbani that reference "khel": ਲਫ਼ਜ਼ ਖੇਲੁ ਗੁਰੂ ਗੰ੍ਰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ ਵਿਚ ਕਈ ਵਾਰੀ ਆਇਆ ਹੈ; ਪ੍ਰਮਾਣ ਵਜੋਂ 

      ਸੁਪਨੰਤਰੁ ਸੰਸਾਰ ਸਭੁ ਸਭੁ ਬਾਜੀ ਖੇਲੁ ਖਿਲਾਵੈਗੇ ॥ ਲਾਹਾ ਨਾਮੁ ਗੁਰਮਤਿ ਲੈ ਚਾਲਹੁ ਹਰਿ ਦਰਗਹ ਪੈਧਾ 
      ਜਾਵੈਗੋ ॥੫॥੫॥ ਕਾਨੜਾ ਮ: ੪ ਅਸਟਪਦੀ 

      ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਵਖਰੁ ਹੈ ਊਤਮੁ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਇਕੁ ਪੁਰਖੁ ਹਮਾਰਾ ॥ ਹਰਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਕੀਆ ਹਰਿ ਆਪੇ ਵਰਤੈ ਸਭੁ 
      ਜਗਤੁ ਕੀਆ ਵਣਜਾਰਾ ॥੪॥ ਕਾਨੜੇ ਕੀ ਵਾਰ 

      ਜੈਸੇ ਹਰਹਟ ਕੀ ਮਾਲਾ ਟਿੰਡ ਲਗਤ ਹੈ ॥ ਇਕ ਸਖਨੀ ਹੋਰ ਫੇਰ ਭਰੀਅਤ ਹੈ ॥ ਤੈਸੋ ਹੀ ਇਹ ਖੇਲੁ 
      ਖਸਮ ਕਾ ਜਿਉ ਉਸ ਕੀ ਵਡਿਆਈ ॥੨॥੮॥ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ ਮ: ੧ 

      ਆਪੇ ਭਾਂਤ ਬਣਾਏ ਬਹੁਰੰਗੀ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਉਪਾਈ ਪ੍ਰਭਿ ਖੇਲੁ ਕੀਆ ॥ ਕਰਿ ਕਰਿ ਵੇਖੈ ਕਰੇ ਕਰਾਏ ਸਰਬ 
      ਜੀਆ ਨੋ ਰਿਜਕੁ ਦੀਆ ॥੧॥੬॥ ਪ੍ਰਭਾਤੀ ਮ: ੩ 

      ਪੀਤ ਬਸਨ ਕੁੰਦ-ਦਸਨ ਪ੍ਰਿਅ ਸਹਿਤ ਕੰਠ ਮਾਲ ਮੁਕਟੁ ਸੀਸਿ ਮੋਰ ਪੰਖ ਚਾਰਿ ਜੀਉ ॥ ਬੇਵਜੀਰ ਬਡੇ ਧੀਰ 
      ਧਰਮ ਅੰਗ ਅਲਖ ਅਗਮ ਖੇਲੁ ਕੀਆ ਆਪਣੈ ਉਛਾਹਿ ਜੀਉ ॥੩॥੮॥ ਸਵਈਏ ਮਹਲੇ ਚੌਥੇ ਕੇ, 
      ਗਯੰਦ 

      ਕੀਆ ਖੇਲੁ ਬਡਮੇਲੁ ਤਮਾਸਾ ॥ ਵਾਹਿ ਗੁਰੂ ਤੇਰੀ ਸਭ ਰਚਨਾ ॥ ਤੂ ਜਲਿ ਥਲਿ ਗਗਨਿ ਪਯਾਲਿ ਪੂਰਿ ਰਹਾ 
      ਅੰਮ੍ਰਿਤ ਤੇ ਮੀਠੇ ਜਾ ਕੇ ਬਚਨਾ ॥੩॥੧੩॥੪੨॥ ਸਵਈਏ ਮਹਲੇ ਚੌਥੇ ਕੇ, ਗਯੰਦ 

      ਸੋ, 
      ਖੇਲੁ ਦਾ ਅਰਥ ਹੈ ਜਗਤ-ਰੂਪ ਤਮਾਸ਼ਾ  In the end, he defines "khel" as the world drama. Note: In the pre-creation state, there was no sin, nor charity. From Sukhmani Sahib: ਜਬ ਅਕਾਰੁ ਇਹੁ ਕਛੁ ਨ ਦ੍ਰਿਸਟੇਤਾ ॥ When this world had not yet appeared in any form, ਪਾਪ ਪੁੰਨ ਤਬ ਕਹ ਤੇ ਹੋਤਾ ॥ Who then committed sins and performed good deeds? ਜਬ ਧਾਰੀ ਆਪਨ ਸੁੰਨ ਸਮਾਧਿ ॥ When the Lord Himself was in Profound Samaadhi, ਤਬ ਬੈਰ ਬਿਰੋਧ ਕਿਸੁ ਸੰਗਿ ਕਮਾਤਿ ॥ Then against whom were hate and jealousy directed?   There are many lines that could be quoted, but this sums things up nicely (21st astpadi of Sukhmani): ਸਲੋਕੁ ॥ Shalok: ਸਰਗੁਨ ਨਿਰਗੁਨ ਨਿਰੰਕਾਰ ਸੁੰਨ ਸਮਾਧੀ ਆਪਿ ॥ He possesses all qualities; He transcends all qualities; He is the Formless Lord. He Himself is in Primal Samaadhi. ਆਪਨ ਕੀਆ ਨਾਨਕਾ ਆਪੇ ਹੀ ਫਿਰਿ ਜਾਪਿ ॥੧॥ Through His Creation, O Nanak, He meditates on Himself. ||1||   And so, the command for us, too, is to meditate on God. And that's how your "friend's" questions will be answered, if he's sincere.
    • I wound up in your irc before finding this place. It was just empty at the time. 
    • i agree. Try to find the intentions of your friend. Maybe he's curious, I have doubts however. 
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