Guest Jagsaw_Singh

Some more Home Truths

157 posts in this topic

oh and one more thing London Jawan Singh :
 

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Jagsaw my old friend, IMODIUM Time again I think......

The tower is in the same vicinity, it is NOT on the same road, NEITHER is it 4 minutes walk away. Its a little over half a mile away. Seems like youre talking right out of your Jagsaw yet again........

 

The Gurdwara is at the corner of St. Annes Road. Walk up St. Annes Road and you end up at the western entrance of Grenfell Tower. For someone who claims to have "been there over the weekend doing volunteer work" you really do have either a poor sense of geography or terrible spatial awareness..... if not a horrible habit of lying :ehhh:

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On 2017-5-29 at 0:32 PM, Guest Jagsaw_singh said:

Now tell me........Have the Jews curled themselves like we did in 'shame'.?  Are the Jewish forum posters declaring their 'shame' like we did ?  Has the Jewish media gone all out, like we did, in declaring their utter 'shame' ?   Have Jews throughout the world been saying, like we did, "oh my god.....this is so terrible....this is so shamefull....what will the christians think of us ?"

I believe many Jewish people did see it as a shameful public display.. Have you been through a range of Jewish forums to qualify your assertion that there was no individuals who saw it as a act that demeaned the Jewish community.. 

Moreover being a Sikh and being part of the Sikh panth requires us to behave in a way becoming of the Sikh way. Not relative to the behaviour of others... On the battle field bhai khaniya demonstrated this.. If we truly believe in Sikhi then we can't compromise our principles... I applaud the Sikh panth to be self critical it should be welcomed.. We should measure  ourselves against the highest standards. We should be prepared to say when our actions have come up short.. 

I do however agree that we shouldn't do this because we are worried about how we will be perceived by other communities. We should do it because it's right 

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4 hours ago, Sukhvirk1976 said:

I believe many Jewish people did see it as a shameful public display.. Have you been through a range of Jewish forums to qualify your assertion that there was no individuals who saw it as a act that demeaned the Jewish community.. 

Moreover being a Sikh and being part of the Sikh panth requires us to behave in a way becoming of the Sikh way. Not relative to the behaviour of others... On the battle field bhai khaniya demonstrated this.. If we truly believe in Sikhi then we can't compromise our principles... I applaud the Sikh panth to be self critical it should be welcomed.. We should measure  ourselves against the highest standards. We should be prepared to say when our actions have come up short.. 

I do however agree that we shouldn't do this because we are worried about how we will be perceived by other communities. We should do it because it's right 

Honestly Sukhi1976, sometimes I do feel I'm conversing with little children here that are incapable of not only reading properly but truly unable to grasp points in their wider intellectual context.  If you read back at my messages on the subject I talked about how the wider media.....international media because newspapers around the world ran this same story.....were running stories entitled 'Sikhs feel shame' in which Sikh groups and organisations as well as individuals were feeding the wider media opinions about how all Sikhs feel utterly ashamed and embarrassed by the fighting in the Gurdwara in Germany.  That negative international media reaction DID not come about because of the 'fight'.....It came about because of our master-slave mentality reaction to the fight.   In contrast no Jews or Christians have been feeding shame reactions to the media about their fights.   The second point you'll gather once you actually try and understand my messages, is that having a critical race stance on not having an inferiority complex with white people.....not doing and saying things just to please and satisfy them is NOT the same as advocating fighting in the Gurdwara. I just truly find it difficult to comprehend how so many of you keep confusing a critical race theorist's viewpoint about inter-race hierarchy with a pro fight in the gurdwara agenda. :ghost:

 

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On 2017-6-22 at 7:53 AM, Guest Jagsaw_Singh said:

Some here, such as mister singh and BHS did not have enough intelligence to understand what's going on and jumped on your bandwagon but that rationale of yours is articulated in what you said next:

Mister Singh and BHS were too immature and unintelligent to notice how I called you out on your first week here....

Jagsaw, don't mistake my silence as a sign of weakness, or an unwillingness to continue to expose your transparent agenda on this forum. If you continue poking, I will bite. Don't force my hand.

 

Edited by MisterrSingh
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Jagsaw, don't mistake my silence as a sign of weakness, or an unwillingness to continue to expose your transparent agenda on this forum. If you continue poking, I will bite. Don't force my hand.

What 'transparent agenda' has your imagination dreamt up mister singh ? :hairan: I'd love to know.

I'm a left-wing, critical race theorist, amateur historian, legally trained Sikh firmly of the view that the facist Indian regime has no moral authority to be in my homeland of the Punjab....so I come onto this platform for Sikhs that has been designed to bounce personal ideas, opinions and knowledge with each other and I do exactly that i.e. I state what my opinions on the issues being discussed here are. I would say I disagree with something around 90% of the opinions of others here but not only do I have full respect for their opinion I firmly salute and celebrate the opportunity to be able to listen to and digest the opinions of others.  This ability to reason with one another is what differentiates us from other animals. Unlike others here, I don't  stalk certain users and ensure 100% of my contribution here is to follow a person around and abuse them and I don't go on to someone's thread and just because I disagree with the opinion that person holds describe the whole thread as "AIDS" !! So , I ask you again, what exactly is this 'transparent agenda' that you mistakingly think exists ? and what frightens you so much about a person that has views and articulates them that you viciously go after them whilst remaining totally oblivious to the way others spend their whole time here (a forum with children present) throwing profanities and abuse around ? 

I would ask everyone here to click on London Jawan Singh's name and read his history on this forum. It's truly mind-blowing and astounding. :ghost:  Out of a total of 100 messages that he has written in his entire history on this forum exactly 99 of them are where he has followed (stalked) me from thread to thread just to throw abuse. Now think about that for one moment and think what kind of emotional or mental issues might be behind such a course of action. 99% of his entire posting history on this forum has been dedicated to following me around wherever I go and throwing profanities. It beggars belief :hairan: Go ahead everyone....click on London Jawan Singh's name.

So of course I think you are someone of extremely low intelligence mister singh. I've not said anything about you and yet you still saw fit on a couple of occasions to attack me whilst remaining blind to everything else happening around us. You've shown nothing there that demonstrates any level of maturity or intelligence. If you disagree with my left wing stance on things reason with me....don't abuse and attack me. If you disagree with my self-determination for the Punjab stance reason with me...don't abuse and attack me.   If you disagree with my sociological observations reason with me....don't abuse and attack me.

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Re; the 'What's the Low Down in East London' thread on the main page:

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London is a 3 rd world dumping ground.  Not many people speak English there.  London has lost its working class roots.

 Hammertime...what are you like ? :ehhh: 

Bruvs, as a Brummie, what do you know about London ? I mean what do you REALLY know ?

There's up to a million French here. Young white Canadians and Americans from richer families. More international billionaiires than any other major city on earth. Brazilians....Spanish...Australians etc etc all in their hundreds of thousands. What do you, sitting in Brummie land, really know about London ?


 

Quote

 

The London accent has changed 

 People are speaking with an Arab/English accent that goes for non muslims

 

:ehhh: Oh Hammertime.....what are you like you cheeky monkey ?

The accent you're referring to is an eclectic mixture of Cockney, Jamaican and Indian.  There is not.....and never has been.....any 'Arab' influence on the London accent of the street.

Back in the day....late 70's / early 80's....the first place in London where this accent appeared large scale, was Southall. The Southall accent of the 1980's is the mother of the street London accent of today.

A little background:  

  • Listen to any Southall born Sikh (born in the 1960's) and you'll notice he or she has a very thick set East London / North London proper Cockney accent.
  • Listen to any Hounslow (just 2 miles south of Southall) born Sikh and you'll notice he or she has a less pronounced softer South London based London accent.

Now....seeing how both these towns are north of the river, both in West London just 2 miles apart, one needs to ask oneself how this had come about ?   Well, the root of the answer - a key that unlocks a lot of urban history in the UK - is the railways. Hounslow, although north of the river, had 100% of it's railway links with the rest of London going through south London whereas Southall, as a railway town, has 100% of it's links with everything in London north of the river. Thus, from the 1930s and 40s, Southall housed the overspill from the slums of the proper east end of London as well as places like Hackney, Camden etc.  Hounslow, on the other hand, housed the overspill of those areas south of the river,i.e areas well away from the cockney heartlands.  So, as Sikhs moved into Southall and Hounslow in the 50's their children who were born there naturally picked up the local accents and Southall was always way WAY more Cockney than Hounslow. In fact, the Southall accent was way more 'Cockney' than the towns you would pass through on the way to the centre of London from Southall, such as Acton, Shepherds Bush, Hammersmith etc. This was because all those towns had indigenous populations who's London accent accent had developed organically over time whereas Southall's (because of the east end overspill) was Whitechapel, Stepney and Bow transplanted to Southall.

So, having established how the 1st generation of Southall born Sikhs had deep set Cockney accents its really interesting to note how their children and grand-children do not....and indeed pronounce English words badly. To some extent you could say how verbal articulation took a step backwards with the newer generation of Southall born. So next, lets examine that:

A natural organic occurrence throughout the world, in every country, is that once a set of immigrants settle in a country in very large numbers......people from immigrant families that talk a different language at home and a different language at school and work....their pronounciation starts to change. We saw the same thing with the Chicanos in America and we saw the same thing with us Asians in the UK. We will also, one day, see it happening in Canada. Once a group of people exist in very large numbers, their words, expressions and mode of delivery starts to change in order to reflect their dominant culture. That's what started with the Sikhs of Southall and has now spread throughout London to the extent that it has become the dominant accent of London. Only a Brummie who gets his views of London from Fox News would think the accent is all some 'Arab' conspiracy .:ehhh:

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8 hours ago, Guest Jagsaw_Singh said:

Re; the 'What's the Low Down in East London' thread on the main page:

 Hammertime...what are you like ? :ehhh: 

Bruvs, as a Brummie, what do you know about London ? I mean what do you REALLY know ?

There's up to a million French here. Young white Canadians and Americans from richer families. More international billionaiires than any other major city on earth. Brazilians....Spanish...Australians etc etc all in their hundreds of thousands. What do you, sitting in Brummie land, really know about London ?


 

:ehhh: Oh Hammertime.....what are you like you cheeky monkey ?

The accent you're referring to is an eclectic mixture of Cockney, Jamaican and Indian.  There is not.....and never has been.....any 'Arab' influence on the London accent of the street.

Back in the day....late 70's / early 80's....the first place in London where this accent appeared large scale, was Southall. The Southall accent of the 1980's is the mother of the street London accent of today.

A little background:  

  • Listen to any Southall born Sikh (born in the 1960's) and you'll notice he or she has a very thick set East London / North London proper Cockney accent.
  • Listen to any Hounslow (just 2 miles south of Southall) born Sikh and you'll notice he or she has a less pronounced softer South London based London accent.

Now....seeing how both these towns are north of the river, both in West London just 2 miles apart, one needs to ask oneself how this had come about ?   Well, the root of the answer - a key that unlocks a lot of urban history in the UK - is the railways. Hounslow, although north of the river, had 100% of it's railway links with the rest of London going through south London whereas Southall, as a railway town, has 100% of it's links with everything in London north of the river. Thus, from the 1930s and 40s, Southall housed the overspill from the slums of the proper east end of London as well as places like Hackney, Camden etc.  Hounslow, on the other hand, housed the overspill of those areas south of the river,i.e areas well away from the cockney heartlands.  So, as Sikhs moved into Southall and Hounslow in the 50's their children who were born there naturally picked up the local accents and Southall was always way WAY more Cockney than Hounslow. In fact, the Southall accent was way more 'Cockney' than the towns you would pass through on the way to the centre of London from Southall, such as Acton, Shepherds Bush, Hammersmith etc. This was because all those towns had indigenous populations who's London accent accent had developed organically over time whereas Southall's (because of the east end overspill) was Whitechapel, Stepney and Bow transplanted to Southall.

So, having established how the 1st generation of Southall born Sikhs had deep set Cockney accents its really interesting to note how their children and grand-children do not....and indeed pronounce English words badly. To some extent you could say how verbal articulation took a step backwards with the newer generation of Southall born. So next, lets examine that:

A natural organic occurrence throughout the world, in every country, is that once a set of immigrants settle in a country in very large numbers......people from immigrant families that talk a different language at home and a different language at school and work....their pronounciation starts to change. We saw the same thing with the Chicanos in America and we saw the same thing with us Asians in the UK. We will also, one day, see it happening in Canada. Once a group of people exist in very large numbers, their words, expressions and mode of delivery starts to change in order to reflect their dominant culture. That's what started with the Sikhs of Southall and has now spread throughout London to the extent that it has become the dominant accent of London. Only a Brummie who gets his views of London from Fox News would think the accent is all some 'Arab' conspiracy .:ehhh:

I have a whole swath of uncles and aunties born in 1960s Southall but I wouldn't say that they have cockney accents, broad London accent yes but not cockney.

I've never noticed any difference between Southall and Hounslow accent either. But it depends how you define Hounslow though. 

The London street accent we here today actually originates from South London black community. I used to live in South London and used to hear this accent all the time and at the time no East, West or North Londoner  (even black) never spoke like that.

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9 hours ago, Guest Jagsaw_Singh said:

Re; the 'What's the Low Down in East London' thread on the main page:

 Hammertime...what are you like ? :ehhh: 

Bruvs, as a Brummie, what do you know about London ? I mean what do you REALLY know ?

There's up to a million French here. Young white Canadians and Americans from richer families. More international billionaiires than any other major city on earth. Brazilians....Spanish...Australians etc etc all in their hundreds of thousands. What do you, sitting in Brummie land, really know about London ?


 

:ehhh: Oh Hammertime.....what are you like you cheeky monkey ?

The accent you're referring to is an eclectic mixture of Cockney, Jamaican and Indian.  There is not.....and never has been.....any 'Arab' influence on the London accent of the street.

Back in the day....late 70's / early 80's....the first place in London where this accent appeared large scale, was Southall. The Southall accent of the 1980's is the mother of the street London accent of today.

A little background:  

  • Listen to any Southall born Sikh (born in the 1960's) and you'll notice he or she has a very thick set East London / North London proper Cockney accent.
  • Listen to any Hounslow (just 2 miles south of Southall) born Sikh and you'll notice he or she has a less pronounced softer South London based London accent.

Now....seeing how both these towns are north of the river, both in West London just 2 miles apart, one needs to ask oneself how this had come about ?   Well, the root of the answer - a key that unlocks a lot of urban history in the UK - is the railways. Hounslow, although north of the river, had 100% of it's railway links with the rest of London going through south London whereas Southall, as a railway town, has 100% of it's links with everything in London north of the river. Thus, from the 1930s and 40s, Southall housed the overspill from the slums of the proper east end of London as well as places like Hackney, Camden etc.  Hounslow, on the other hand, housed the overspill of those areas south of the river,i.e areas well away from the cockney heartlands.  So, as Sikhs moved into Southall and Hounslow in the 50's their children who were born there naturally picked up the local accents and Southall was always way WAY more Cockney than Hounslow. In fact, the Southall accent was way more 'Cockney' than the towns you would pass through on the way to the centre of London from Southall, such as Acton, Shepherds Bush, Hammersmith etc. This was because all those towns had indigenous populations who's London accent accent had developed organically over time whereas Southall's (because of the east end overspill) was Whitechapel, Stepney and Bow transplanted to Southall.

So, having established how the 1st generation of Southall born Sikhs had deep set Cockney accents its really interesting to note how their children and grand-children do not....and indeed pronounce English words badly. To some extent you could say how verbal articulation took a step backwards with the newer generation of Southall born. So next, lets examine that:

A natural organic occurrence throughout the world, in every country, is that once a set of immigrants settle in a country in very large numbers......people from immigrant families that talk a different language at home and a different language at school and work....their pronounciation starts to change. We saw the same thing with the Chicanos in America and we saw the same thing with us Asians in the UK. We will also, one day, see it happening in Canada. Once a group of people exist in very large numbers, their words, expressions and mode of delivery starts to change in order to reflect their dominant culture. That's what started with the Sikhs of Southall and has now spread throughout London to the extent that it has become the dominant accent of London. Only a Brummie who gets his views of London from Fox News would think the accent is all some 'Arab' conspiracy .:ehhh:

for my well-practiced ear (since I was born within sound of bow bells ( technically a cockney)  southall is more like the Essex accent rather than the true cockney accent (no apples and pears, jaffas or mutton phrases etc) . which makes sense as central line is direct link to the two halfs . One classic telltale sign is the constant use of innit as punctuation, you don't get that in Cockney it's used purely in sentence context.

I agree there is a difference in vowel use and cadence south of the Water , I did three years there ,new cross, new cross gate, brockley (eldest born at Lewisham hospital),  it didn't take.

Edited by jkvlondon
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The London street accent we here today actually originates from South London black community. I used to live in South London and used to hear this accent all the time and at the time no East, West or North Londoner  (even black) never spoke like that.

Southall had it from the early 80's Ranjeet. I didn't but everyone else around me did. People from Hounslow etc would call it the 'Southall innit accent' and I don't think any of us knew at the time how it would go on to become London's dominant accent. I remember at the time feeling bad how I wasn't speaking in the same way that all my friends and cousins had begun to speak. It made me feel bad but I put it down to the fact that I was spending way too little time doing 'southall things' and way too much time doing 'white things' (thinking back...kinda gayish camp things) such as reading poetry books while sitting in Highgate cemetery. I think that was my downfall. If I never did that I would have ended up speaking the way I should have ended up speaking.

Quote

I've never noticed any difference between Southall and Hounslow accent either. But it depends how you define Hounslow though.

Thats actually quite interesting because it's always fascinated me how our perception of London manors and neighbourhoods is based entirely on man-made concepts of London Boroughs from the 1960's. For example, some council official in the 60's decided that a London Borough of Hounslow would be made and Brentford would be part of it. So now, when we think of Brentford we automatically associate it with Hounslow just because of that one decision from the 1960's. Historically however, Brentford, along with Boston Manor and Hanwell (W7) were positively joined at the hip with Southall and all 4 were considered extensions of each other.

Another interesting point to remember is how we should salute our elders rather than critcise them for the way they pronounce 'Hounslow' and 'Southall'. These old timers from the pends back home have, without even knowing it, proven to be historically 100% accurate. We laughed and criticised them for prounouncing Hounslow as 'Hunslore' and Southall as 'Sultharle',  Nobody could ever have imagined how unbelievably right they are though for Hounslow is a modern day corruption of the original name of the town 'Hundslawe' and Southall is a modern day corruption of the original name of the town 'Sulaale; (Sir De Sulaale was given the plot of land we now know as Southall as a Knight's fee........A Knight's Fee in olde English Law is the equivalent of the olde Punjabi 'Jagir'. The greatest example of a Knights Fee (jagir) in our own Sikh history is the Manjki tract. It's fascinating.....all history is fascinating but this is truly fascinating....because this 'knight's fee' was given to the Dhaliwal Misl that raised the Nishan Sahib over the Red Fort in Delhi and therefore, in one fell swoop, ruled over the whole of the Indian sub-continent. To appease the Sikh misl, the mughals gave them a jagir (knight's fee) of a tract of land in Doaba. That land became to be known as the manjki tract and it;s inhabitants the manjki jats. Where it becomes really interesting is that 95% of the pioneer Sikhs in Southall, Canada, California and what was in the late 1800's the single biggest Sikh point of immigration: Australia (or 'Telia' as it became to be known in Punjabi) came from the Manjki tract)

Quote

I have a whole swath of uncles and aunties born in 1960s Southall but I wouldn't say that they have cockney accents, broad London accent yes but not cockney.

Oh definately full-blown 'Cockney' in the traditional sense Ranjeet. My mum's a classic example but its the same with many of my uncles and aunties born in Southall in the 1950's, 60's and early 70's.......From mid 70's onwards its a very different story. Southall's history actually gives us many clues as to how this phenomena came about. In the early 1900's right up untill the 60's it was a massive industrial hub. It was famous for 2 things...firstly for being the lunatic asylum capital of England and secondly for having 59% of it devoted to industry. Ignoring the major industries that chose Southall, particularly the International American brands that chose Southall as its base such as Johnson and Johnson, Quaker Oats and the German car maker Daimler Benz.....for the subject of this conversation we need to remember 2 things: the fact that Southall was a railway town and, most importantly, the Grand Union Canal (River Brent). The water, to be honest with you, defines the history of Southall and thus the history of the Sikhs of Southall more than anything else. For example, I'm sure everyone here has visited the massive and iconic Havelock Road Singh Sabha Gurdwara but who here realises that the very spot the Gurdwara sits was one, because of it's closeness to the water, was the site of Wedgewood's China plates factory complex ?  I mention that partly because that type of industry explains why Southall attracted so many Wesh people but obviously I'm digressing here because we're trying to explain the cockney element. From 1900 to 1930 (again because of Southall's river/canal connection) more than a dozen major brick, weaving and other factories moved out of Shoreditch in the East End of London and set themselves up in Southall. Their workers came with them. And their voices came with them too.

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22 hours ago, Guest Jagsaw_Singh said:

If you read back at my messages on the subject I talked about how the wider media.....international media because newspapers around the world ran this same story.....were running stories entitled 'Sikhs feel shame' in which Sikh groups and organisations as well as individuals were feeding the wider media opinions about how all Sikhs feel utterly ashamed and embarrassed by the fighting in the Gurdwara in Germany.  That negative international media reaction DID not come about because of the 'fight'.....

I apologise if I misunderstood your post but if I may I first of all didn't see a international news story about the event you discussed.. Where across the big international news networks was there a story of a) the fight at the gurudwara and b) Sikhs demonstrably articulating they were ashamed? I didn't see it.. 

I don't at all understand what or how you relate this to 'race theory' (a concept which in this context I'm unfamiliar with),you may very well have a point but I don't think you're articulating it in a way for me at least to digest.. 

There's quite a bit of presumption in your proposition as it stands.. I'm all ears to hear the break down but at the moment it feels like you're making a issue out of nothing..? 

I genuinely don't buy into this idea that Sikhs some how have a inferiority complex that makes them apologetic.. I with all due respect would like to see how you join the dots I'm genuinely not being facetious

SSA 

Edited by Sukhvirk1976

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Edited by MisterrSingh
For reasons. None of your business.
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6 hours ago, Guest Jagsaw_Singh said:

Southall had it from the early 80's Ranjeet. I didn't but everyone else around me did. People from Hounslow etc would call it the 'Southall innit accent' and I don't think any of us knew at the time how it would go on to become London's dominant accent. I remember at the time feeling bad how I wasn't speaking in the same way that all my friends and cousins had begun to speak. It made me feel bad but I put it down to the fact that I was spending way too little time doing 'southall things' and way too much time doing 'white things' (thinking back...kinda gayish camp things) such as reading poetry books while sitting in Highgate cemetery. I think that was my downfall. If I never did that I would have ended up speaking the way I should have ended up speaking.

Thats actually quite interesting because it's always fascinated me how our perception of London manors and neighbourhoods is based entirely on man-made concepts of London Boroughs from the 1960's. For example, some council official in the 60's decided that a London Borough of Hounslow would be made and Brentford would be part of it. So now, when we think of Brentford we automatically associate it with Hounslow just because of that one decision from the 1960's. Historically however, Brentford, along with Boston Manor and Hanwell (W7) were positively joined at the hip with Southall and all 4 were considered extensions of each other.

Another interesting point to remember is how we should salute our elders rather than critcise them for the way they pronounce 'Hounslow' and 'Southall'. These old timers from the pends back home have, without even knowing it, proven to be historically 100% accurate. We laughed and criticised them for prounouncing Hounslow as 'Hunslore' and Southall as 'Sultharle',  Nobody could ever have imagined how unbelievably right they are though for Hounslow is a modern day corruption of the original name of the town 'Hundslawe' and Southall is a modern day corruption of the original name of the town 'Sulaale; (Sir De Sulaale was given the plot of land we now know as Southall as a Knight's fee........A Knight's Fee in olde English Law is the equivalent of the olde Punjabi 'Jagir'. The greatest example of a Knights Fee (jagir) in our own Sikh history is the Manjki tract. It's fascinating.....all history is fascinating but this is truly fascinating....because this 'knight's fee' was given to the Dhaliwal Misl that raised the Nishan Sahib over the Red Fort in Delhi and therefore, in one fell swoop, ruled over the whole of the Indian sub-continent. To appease the Sikh misl, the mughals gave them a jagir (knight's fee) of a tract of land in Doaba. That land became to be known as the manjki tract and it;s inhabitants the manjki jats. Where it becomes really interesting is that 95% of the pioneer Sikhs in Southall, Canada, California and what was in the late 1800's the single biggest Sikh point of immigration: Australia (or 'Telia' as it became to be known in Punjabi) came from the Manjki tract)

Oh definately full-blown 'Cockney' in the traditional sense Ranjeet. My mum's a classic example but its the same with many of my uncles and aunties born in Southall in the 1950's, 60's and early 70's.......From mid 70's onwards its a very different story. Southall's history actually gives us many clues as to how this phenomena came about. In the early 1900's right up untill the 60's it was a massive industrial hub. It was famous for 2 things...firstly for being the lunatic asylum capital of England and secondly for having 59% of it devoted to industry. Ignoring the major industries that chose Southall, particularly the International American brands that chose Southall as its base such as Johnson and Johnson, Quaker Oats and the German car maker Daimler Benz.....for the subject of this conversation we need to remember 2 things: the fact that Southall was a railway town and, most importantly, the Grand Union Canal (River Brent). The water, to be honest with you, defines the history of Southall and thus the history of the Sikhs of Southall more than anything else. For example, I'm sure everyone here has visited the massive and iconic Havelock Road Singh Sabha Gurdwara but who here realises that the very spot the Gurdwara sits was one, because of it's closeness to the water, was the site of Wedgewood's China plates factory complex ?  I mention that partly because that type of industry explains why Southall attracted so many Wesh people but obviously I'm digressing here because we're trying to explain the cockney element. From 1900 to 1930 (again because of Southall's river/canal connection) more than a dozen major brick, weaving and other factories moved out of Shoreditch in the East End of London and set themselves up in Southall. Their workers came with them. And their voices came with them too.

There are a lot of parts of the South East where people from the East End moved to and impacted the accent not just Southall, mind you I was not aware people from East end venturing out to West London during the early 20th century does surprise me.

There were a lot of Cockney that moved post war particularly in the new towns.

Innit has been used since the 1980s, but whether it was used originally in Southall I cannot say. Lenny Henry I believe used it in his comedy sketches for some of his characters like Delbert Wilkins and that was in the 1980s. 

Nobody liked to admit using innit and claimed that the other person did.

I think the London street accent that Hammertime pertains to is this London ghetto street accent that the youth speak these days which sounds peculiar. 

It certainly did not exist in the 1980s but it did kind of develop during the early 90's .

You notice words that the pronounciation has changed such as "like" and "kind" and "twice" and "why" in the link below. 

You hear some different sounding London accents and the type of speak by the protagonist in the link below:

 

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21 hours ago, Guest Jagsaw-Singh said:

I'm a left-wing, critical race theorist, amateur historian...

Ah, the penny finally drops. I suspected as much, but I'm glad to hear it from the horse's mouth.

That's all. For now.

Edited by MisterrSingh
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On 2017-6-22 at 7:53 AM, Guest Jagsaw_Singh said:

Lets start with the "deleted" aspect of your message first, London Jawan Singh. Since the day you came onto this forum every single one of your messages....thats 100%....have been messages in which you have nothing to say but to abuse people. No original thought or opinion.....just a constant stream of abuse. Sometimes the abuse is directed at me.....at other times you threw despicable abuse at the direction of female members but always abuse after abuse abuse. And yet they still let you post here :waheguru:

 

I have plenty to say Jagsaw, I only abuse where the poster justifies that type of response. I congratulate you that the 100% stupidity of your posts warrants a lifetime membership to that group.

On 2017-6-22 at 7:53 AM, Guest Jagsaw_Singh said:

such as mister singh and BHS did not have enough intelligence to understand what's going on and jumped on your bandwagon but that rationale of yours is articulated in what you said next:

Now what kind of Sikh ever says that about the other Sikhs ?  The people that say that all the time however, are the Hindus and the pro-India anti-Khalistan Sikhs.  Mister Singh and BHS were too immature and unintelligent to notice how I called you out on your first week here after every single one of your messages echoed the official Indian line whereby Sikhs wanting self-determination from India were vilified.

Yes I am still posting and your indirect way of drawing attention to my posts by the mods is pathetic in the extreme. Hoping they ban me, just because you have been banned for your prior behvkoofi, resorting to starting up your own thread to comment on things that your banned from commenting on. Dont you get it? No one cares for your idiotic extremist views. And Im comfortable speaking for the majority on here I think.

On 2017-6-22 at 7:53 AM, Guest Jagsaw_Singh said:

Secondly, you abuse me for saying things in previous messages......

And I guarantee you will continue to receive the same criticism from me for your prior BS. I dont believe for a moment that you are legally trained, as if you were, the first thing you should know that making tutee up that is unsupported is a moot line of argument. And you do it over and over again. "officially the crime capital" "a handful of russians beat up 150,000 english supporters" - like a delusional 5 year old. Still waiting for your source re: the russian robocops....

On 2017-6-22 at 7:53 AM, Guest Jagsaw_Singh said:

Mister Singh and BHS were too immature and unintelligent to notice how I called you out on your first week here after every single one of your messages echoed the official Indian line whereby Sikhs wanting self-determination from India were vilified. Since the moment I exposed your pro-India motive here on this forum you've spent 100% of your time here staking Sikhs that want freedom from the scum that is India and throwing abuse at them. A look back at all your messages here on this forum (100% of them) makes very interesting reading. 100% dedicated to rubbishing anyone that is against India and and probably 75% of them containing abuse yet still they let you post here ? :waheguru:

Lets get something straight behvkoofa. I am not pro india, anti khalistan or any other immature title you want to throw out of your pram. What I AM, is anti behvkoof, anti janwar, anti extremist, anti baseless BS, anti moronic google warrior. Which for you my friend means a full house as you are all of the above. Its idiots like you with your conduct and behaviour in the wider world that think violence is the answer to everything hiding behind your PC, when in reality at the first hint of someone voicing a different opinion to you or a raised voice means that you will probably involuntarily defecate.

Its like the idiots that tried to create a controversy when Sadiq Khan went to the Southall Gurdwara, or the <banned word filter activated> who went live on TV and started shouting during a programme on the BBC. Do you think that did anything for opinion of sikhs in the wider world. Any you ? You c*ck consider that an inferiority complex. Its not, its damging the position of the Kaum in the wider world, for which behvooks like you are 100% responsible.

And your modus operandi is to come back aggressively each and every time youre called out for talking unsupported BS - like this time.

Shepherds bush gurdwara is on Queensdale Road W11. 

No matter how hard you throw your toys out of the pram, it is NOT on the same road. Which illustrates my point perfectly, its not on the same road and its half a mile away, which, unless you are driving at 120mph in the city, will take longerr than 30 seconds to get to. But thats you all over, baseless bollocks and exaggerations all day long to prove a point thats not there.

And yes I was there, does seva need to be from a gurdwara to "count". Only in your polluted mind.

And yes I also call out JKV when she comes out with BS, and shall continue to do so. And dont apologise for it whatsoever.

Its obvious that you are persona grata on this board, so do us all a favour and kkep the BS in your rectum

Whaeguru ji ka khalsa, whaeguru ji ki fateh

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On 2017-6-22 at 11:47 AM, Guest Jagsaw_Singh said:

oh and one more thing London Jawan Singh :
 

The Gurdwara is at the corner of St. Annes Road. Walk up St. Annes Road and you end up at the western entrance of Grenfell Tower. For someone who claims to have "been there over the weekend doing volunteer work" you really do have either a poor sense of geography or terrible spatial awareness..... if not a horrible habit of lying :ehhh:

lying?? dont make me laugh. Have you ever even been to london?? Want to check?? Call up the nuns co-ordinating the volunteers and ask her if some sikhs were there volunteering last weekend. Then come to central london tell me where you will be and you can kiss my <banned word filter activated>,.

The defintion of lying is stating facts that are untrue. e.g. a handful of russians beat up 150,000 english football fans. Or that shepherds bush gurdwara and grenfell tower are on the same road. You tw*t.

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There are a lot of parts of the South East where people from the East End moved to and impacted the accent not just Southall, mind you I was not aware people from East end venturing out to West London during the early 20th century does surprise me

I can't see how it does 'surprise you' Ranjeet. What makes unlocking history fascinating is that it's like putting together a giant jigsaw puzzle. Once you fit the pieces together things begin to make sense. To do that you have to start with the basics and I would recommend everyone here in the UK researches their own local history because once you set down that route you to begin to understand our own Sikh history in the UK and its vital we pass that on to each generation. I believe that is so vitally important because right now we've allowed the Sikhs from Kenya that arrived in the late 1970's to misrepresent our history, for example in the way they keep mentioning in the Annual Sikh Report how Sikh settlement in West London started because of jobs at Heathrow Airport. That is just so wrong. So, starting with the basic knowledge that Southall was famous for being west London's major industrial hub (as well <banned word filter activated> the UK's foremost lunatic asylum town) a researcher then needs to examine what those industries were and where they came from. On top of that, when one considers that in the mid to late 1800s up to 50% of Southall's residents were officially 'lunatics' one needs to research where those lunatics were housed from. Research on that front shows that most if not all were from the 'slums of London'. Now of course that could mean anything, as south of the river had as many slums as the east end and places like camden, north kensington, islington and indeed all over inner London were full of slums. However, given the fact that the east end of London was at that time the worlds largest and most concentrated slum I do think we can take it as a given that most were from there. Next, we need to examine the industries. As I said before, we don't need to factor in the major and giant American, German and Danish industries that chose Southall as their base except of course to understand that those major industries attracted a lot workers from out of the area and no area in the UK had people leaving for better pastures than the east end. Next, when we look at the bulk of the other industries that made Southall an industrial hub we need to investigate where they came from....because wherever they came from their workers came with them...and wherever the workers went they took their voices along with them too. So, with major brick companies setting up in Southall we need to research those brick companies, Thats where it gets interesting because local historians and the more numerous Shoreditch (east end) historians (before Southall became so, Shoreditch was London's premier industrial hub) tell us that after one brick company left Shoreditch and set up in Southall it became a trickle of brick companies doing the same followed by many other Shoreditch industries. This spread to many other east london industires, such as AEC the bus maker who moved from east london (Walthamstow) to Southall to set up a humungously sized works.

As I said before Ranjeet, going on a mission of unlocking history is like going on a magical adventure. Its full of wonderfull discovery. I'll give you another example, we know that the very first Sikhs that set up home in Vancouver in the late 1800's were said to be amazingly tall and strong men. Given that information one can't help but go on a magical adventure of discovery and unlock how and why that might be. The first research reveals that those very first Sikhs were ex-soldiers of the British army who came to Canada direct from China and the far east. The next research reveals they were originally dispatched to China to crush the Boxer Rebellion. The last piece of research reveals old photographs of the Sikhs that were selected in the Punjab to go to China and crush the Chinese. That research, and those photographs, reveal that these men were chosen for this mission based purely on their intimidating size. Each, to a man, 6'4" + build like a brick <banned word filter activated> house. Like I said, history is fascinating.

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for my well-practiced ear (since I was born within sound of bow bells ( technically a cockney)  southall is more like the Essex accent rather than the true cockney accent (no apples and pears, jaffas or mutton phrases etc) . which makes sense as central line is direct link to the two halfs . One classic telltale sign is the constant use of innit as punctuation, you don't get that in Cockney it's used purely in sentence context.

No when I talk about the Cockney accent, JKVLondon, I'm talking about the sound of the words and method of delivery and not the caricature-comedic- rhyming slang. I think I might disagree with your assertion that 'innit' is/was not a cockney thing  though. I'm no expert with regards to this aspect and am just basing my opinion on popular media but 'Alf Garnett', for what it's worth, does contradict your view. It's pretty much given that Alf Garnet, and his West Ham accent represented the east end cockney accent rather than south or north London and he was famous for saying 'innit' from the 1960's right up until the 1990's.

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I don't at all understand what or how you relate this to 'race theory' (a concept which in this context I'm unfamiliar with),you may very well have a point but I don't think you're articulating it in a way for me at least to digest.. 

There's quite a bit of presumption in your proposition as it stands.. I'm all ears to hear the break down but at the moment it feels like you're making a issue out of nothing..? 

I genuinely don't buy into this idea that Sikhs some how have a inferiority complex that makes them apologetic.. I with all due respect would like to see how you join the dots I'm genuinely not being facetious

 

I know you're not being facetious Sukhivirk. Even when you're arguing your odious and sickening pro-india points you always do it in a respectful way so that is to be commended.

I disagree when you say I haven't explained my position clearly.....I think I've articulated it time and again and will do so now for the last time.

A few months ago, international media were running stories entitled 'Sikhs feel ashamed by antics in German Gurdwara' or words to that effect. The international media, especially the Indian media, were running that story because Sikh organisations and individuals had been feeding the media reports of us as a group of people feeling utter 'shame' by what had happened. I wrote a message here stating that Christians in their most holiest (where jesus was born) and Jews in London, had been fist fighting in their places of worship far more and far worse than what happened in Germany so I asked what kind of self-loathing led us, but not them, to feed the media stories about our own 'shame' ? I'm not going to go into detail here SukhiVirk but where the 'theory' comes into this is the idea that a group of non-white people become self-critical and self-effacing because they don't feel that have lived up to the ideals set up by white people. Those 'ideals' are not real. Those ideals have been sub-consciously implanted into us. The conscious among us refuse to dance to this tune.

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On ‎6‎/‎22‎/‎2017 at 11:47 AM, Guest Jagsaw_Singh said:

oh and one more thing London Jawan Singh :
 

The Gurdwara is at the corner of St. Annes Road. Walk up St. Annes Road and you end up at the western entrance of Grenfell Tower. For someone who claims to have "been there over the weekend doing volunteer work" you really do have either a poor sense of geography or terrible spatial awareness..... if not a horrible habit of lying :ehhh:

Jagsaw, you have a 5 year ole mentality (and that's being generous), in that you make up idiotic statistics to try and "prove" your point. I think we can update the saying, lies, damn lies and statistics to read "lies, damn lies, and Jagsaw's total bukwaas"

WJKK WJKF

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Guest London Jawan Singh.  Out of what is now a grand total of 103 posts in your entire history on this foum, exactly 102 of them have been where you have stalked me from thread to thread just to throw abuse. That, by any standards, is a mind-blowing thing ?    Now just think about that for one moment: 102 out of 103 of your messages here have been where you stalked me from one thread to another just to throw abuse. I can't even imagine what sort of emotional / mental problems would lie behind such a course of action because it's a state of affairs that is beyond the comprehension of normal people. I think really it's one for the Mods and Admin here to ponder because they need to ask how, when they (the Mods) have had to filter 100 out of 103 of your messages in order to delete the disgusting swear words they still let your messages go on ?   I don't think any of us here would imagine we'd be allowed to post if 100 out of 103 of our messages were full of expletives. So, as someone that doesn't understand why anyone needs to abuse rather than talking, swear rather than use acceptable words and stalk any individual I will have to put it down to other emotional / mental issues in your personal life and show a little understanding.  As such, I will appreciate and take into account the personal issues you have and show understanding as to how the semantics of little over 20 feet can become such a major exploding issue inside your mind that you feel the need to write a total of 3 messages full of expletives over it. So, seeing how it has become such a big and corrosive thing in your mind let me take you by the hand and walk you from the Central London Gurdwara (shepherds bush) to Grenfell Tower. Come and out of the Gurdwara and look to your left. Barring the 2 terraced houses in between you and St Annes Rd you are little over a few yards from the corner of St Annes Rd. For all intents and purposes that puts your starting point at St Annes Rd. Walk up the road that you're starting from (St Annes Rd) and you end up at the western entrance of Grenfell Tower. 

Now, take a few deep breaths and analyse why you previously let this issue get you so wound up that your resorted to stalking someone and abusing them on the internet. Once you start this period of self-analysis you will hoepfully make a concerted effort to control your emotions next time.

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London Jawan, can you please lay-off posting every single reply to jagsaw? Focus on something else.

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On 2017-6-12 at 5:56 PM, MisterrSingh said:

This thread is AIDS. And not the good kind, such as a botched blood transfusion, but the bad kind; the type of AIDS contracted as a result of man love. 

this is ridiculous uncle  ! I think you're better than this homophobic trash you sometimes reveal in your posts.

Also AIDS is nasty no matter how you get it . Claiming Jagsaw is throwing sikhs under the bus, now you're throwing gays under the bus . How ironic.

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Who needs RSS and islamists to finish us off ? 

We will do it ourselves by fighting among ourselves. This thread is one example :shock

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4 hours ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

this is ridiculous uncle  ! I think you're better than this homophobic trash you sometimes reveal in your posts.

Also AIDS is nasty no matter how you get it . Claiming Jagsaw is throwing sikhs under the bus, now you're throwing gays under the bus . How ironic.

It's an obscure reference to a satirical comedy sketch. I know satire is an alien concept to most resident Indians because it requires subtlety.  Get off your high horse. Don't bother with me nonsense you clearly struggle to understand.

Contrary to popular belief and the prevailing mood in contemporary society, most people aren't supportive of homosexuality, particularly in the way it's pushed as the norm by the media. Whilst I wish homosexuals no harm and believe they should be free to practice their lifestyles as they see fit in private, I don't wish to be confronted by gay propaganda at every turn. No masculine male finds homosexuality to be acceptable. FACT. I reject the social programming that has beat entire generations into submission over the past few decades in regards to accepting, endorsing, and normalising such sexual predilections. It is the most pernicious form of psychological warfare designed to destroy society, and history will prove me right when future generations will look back on this period of time and realise that the subversion of heterosexual norms in favour of the many flavours of kink on the LBTQ+ spectrum was one of the root causes of the eventual destruction of our civilisation. We can thank Karl Marx, his successors, and their ideological disciples, of which Jagsaw is one, for that upcoming turn of events.

Plus, if I could be bothered I would present you with a number of anti-gay, to varying degrees, disparaging remarks against homosexuals Jagsaw has made over the years in his incarnations as West London Singh and whichever other moniker he used on this site. That's something he'd be well served to remember before he reframes himself as a champion of gay rights in light of recent political events in the UK.

Don't play your devious little games with me.

Edited by MisterrSingh
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5 hours ago, S1ngh said:

London Jawan, can you please lay-off posting every single reply to jagsaw? Focus on something else.

With all due respect, as long as he isn't breaking forum rules he should be free to post whatever he wishes.

If Jagsaw has seen fit to create a special little enclave on this forum where he can espouse his certain brand of beliefs and delusions to a willing audience, despite being banned, anyone should be free to post whatever they feel to be suitable (within the rules), especially when being directly addressed by the creator of this thread. 

Edited by MisterrSingh
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Plus, if I could be bothered I would present you with a number of anti-gay, to varying degrees, disparaging remarks against homosexuals Jagsaw has made over the years in his incarnations as West London Singh and whichever other moniker he used on this site. That's something he'd be well served to remember before he reframes himself as a champion of gay rights in light of recent political events in the UK.

Don't play your devious little games with me

 

2 things there MisterSingh: Firstly, you're addressing your point to Ajeet Singh Punjabi who was taking issue with something quite disgusting that YOU said.....so why bring me into it ?  Secondly, when you finish your message off with "don't play your devious little games with me" is that because you got all flustered and confused about who you were addressing your message to ? I ask because I don't think anyone here would accuse Ajeet Singh Punjabi of being capable of playing 'devious little games" and seeing how he is an out in the open homosexual it's perfectly reasonable and acceptable for him to take issue with your 'AIDS' remark without being called devious in a pretty nasty way.

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If Jagsaw has seen fit to create a special little enclave on this forum where he can espouse his certain brand of beliefs

Which of my 'certain brand of beliefs' that I've espoused on this thread have upset you so much ?   Generally it's the pro-India anti-Khalistan dogs that detest my anti-India beliefs and come hunting for me in packs of rabid dogs. What's your excuse for joining the muts ?   Was it the anti-brexit stance that made you so angry ?  Was it the vote Labour stance that made your blood boil ?  Was it the history posts ?  

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If Jagsaw has seen fit to create a special little enclave on this forum where he can espouse his certain brand of beliefs and delusions

Brother, I'm all ears and I'm always open to discussion. If you think the Southall industry things are delusional talk to me....tell us your views...don't abuse.  If you think Brexit is gonna make this country world class talk to me....tell us your views...don't abuse. I've espoused a lot of wonderful things on this forum. I'd be really worried if everyone agreed with all of those views. That's not how things should be. As individuals, with individual opinions, we're supposed to disagree with each other.  An area where you need to develop in however, is not taking the political-socio-legal and history views of others so personally that they affect your ability to understand the thing that unites man with man...i.e being able to articulate your counter opinions with decorum and mutual respect.

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anyone should be free to post whatever they feel to be suitable (within the rules), especially when being directly addressed by the creator of this thread

You've clearly been having a very rough couple of months MisterSingh. I think we all realised that when you wrote your quite sinister 'AIDS' post because that was well beneath you and something none of expected from you. But, I've known you long enough to know that you're not that bad and, unless things are particularly rough at the moment with things getting on to of you, there is no way you would be justifying a pro-India troll stalking someone from thread to thread here with the sole intention of throwing abuse....the end result being 102 out of 103 of his messages doing just that. btw...if you're wondering what his one sole message that wasn't about me was: That was a message in which he viciously abuse JKVLondon.  You're better than to keep such company MisterSingh. 

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22 hours ago, Guest Jagsaw_Singh said:

I think really it's one for the Mods and Admin here to ponder because they need to ask how, when they (the Mods) have had to filter 100 out of 103 of your messages in order to delete the disgusting swear words they still let your messages go on ?  

More bukwaas. Its never ending. Filter 100 of my posts eh? bollocks. Aside from which how the hell would you know, given that you are neither a mod, admin or vaguely respected member of this board with any influence whatsoever?

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