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Some more Home Truths

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On 23/11/2017 at 5:58 PM, YOYO29 said:

u sure about this ? I think Tyag is used for someone who does not concern himself with wordly matters.Like, ess banday ney duniyaa tyag ditti aey

 

Tyag is also used for self-sacrifice. This can be dunai-dari or zindagi (both Persian words).

 

On 23/11/2017 at 6:03 PM, YOYO29 said:

well we use jaraab/jarabaan word for socks.

 

Yes and it is a Persian word. Now I don't know the Panjabi word for it, if one exists please tell me and I will stop using Jaraban. Otherwise I will have to stop wearing socks.

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12 minutes ago, chatanga said:

 

Tyag is also used for self-sacrifice. This can be dunai-dari or zindagi (both Persian words).

 

 

Yes and it is a Persian word. Now I don't know the Panjabi word for it, if one exists please tell me and I will stop using Jaraban. Otherwise I will have to stop wearing socks.

The problem with all these Persian words is that makes us Punjabis look like a complete bunch of incompetents. 

It means that we could not come up with anything without the Persian introducing it to us.

 

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1 hour ago, Ranjeet01 said:

The problem with all these Persian words is that makes us Punjabis look like a complete bunch of incompetents. 

It means that we could not come up with anything without the Persian introducing it to us.

 

Exactly. It’s an act of inferiority by using foreign words in one’s own native language. Why should we borrow from others when we had our own words?

What’s even more revealing of our plight is how we we’re struggling to come up with native words for simple things like socks right here on this forum. We can’t even recall a contextual native synonym for Shaheed. We seriously need to revise our language.

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Just now, TejS said:

Exactly. It’s an act of inferiority by using foreign words in one’s own native language. Why should we borrow from others when we had our own words?

What’s even more revealing of our plight is how we we’re struggling to come up with native words for simple things like socks right here on this forum. We can’t even recall a contextual native synonym for Shaheed. We seriously need to revise our language.

It could be construed that we did not know how to cover our feet when it was cold.

We did not know to knit and sew until the Persians came and taught us.

This makes us look like a bunch of primitives.

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13 minutes ago, TejS said:

 native words for simple things like socks

Here's a page on Sanskrit names for clothing. It's interesting that the Hindi word is for socks is 'Mauje', which is a word we use for a type of shoe in Punjabi.

https://www.2indya.com/2011/05/25/sanskrit-names-of-clothes-and-wears/

10 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

It could be construed that we did not know how to cover our feet when it was cold.

We did not know to knit and sew until the Persians came and taught us.

I don't think this is the case, we may have had something that resembles socks as we know them today (western socks if you could call them that), hence, would have had a different name.

You also have to take into account the attitude towards feet and footwear in the subcontinent, and the practicality of 'socks'. 'Socks' or something to keep your feet warm could have been an entirely different category of footwear and so may not have an equivalent word to jarabaan.

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16 hours ago, Guest Jagsaw_Singh said:

So yes you're absolutely right....there needs to be what you call a 'reformation'. And I don't think it need be that difficult. And I also think it's something we Sikhs need to develop a deeper understanding of before it's too late. I'm talking of course, about the philosophy of free will.

Sikhism needs neither a reformation nor a philosophy of free will. Reformations are for religions that are at a primitive tribal level in the first place. Sikhi starts off with Guru Nanak Ji feeding people langar, and preaching meditation of Satnam. If you start off with capturing war booty and sex slaves killing all the males, yeah, you need a reformation.

Philosophy is (mostly) for people trying desperately to understand the universe without real divine knowledge. These types of efforts are called ਸਿਆਣਪਾਂ in Gurbani. (You did you Japji this morning, right?) All of these sianapan don't amount to a hill of beans. We don't have the burning need for philosophy that Westerners do because we can obtain complete knowledge via simran.

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਸੁਝੈ ॥

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8 hours ago, chatanga said:

Yes and it is a Persian word. Now I don't know the Panjabi word for it, if one exists please tell me and I will stop using Jaraban. Otherwise I will have to stop wearing socks.

i have no issue using persian,hindi,english words in my day to day conversations in punjab.I just though a good opportunity to learn "shuddh" punjabi. 

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5 hours ago, MrDoaba said:

Hindi word is for socks is 'Mauje', which is a word we use for a type of shoe in Punjabi.

In urdu we also use 'Mauze' so i doubt if it is hindi word.It sounds like a persian one.Indians have problem prouncing words which end with sound 'z'.Just like Mumtaz Mehal became Mumtaj Mehal and now just Taj Mehal.

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4 hours ago, BhForce said:

Sikhism needs neither a reformation nor a philosophy of free will. Reformations are for religions that are at a primitive tribal level in the first place. Sikhi starts off with Guru Nanak Ji feeding people langar, and preaching meditation of Satnam. If you start off with capturing war booty and sex slaves killing all the males, yeah, you need a reformation.

Philosophy is (mostly) for people trying desperately to understand the universe without real divine knowledge. These types of efforts are called ਸਿਆਣਪਾਂ in Gurbani. (You did you Japji this morning, right?) All of these sianapan don't amount to a hill of beans. We don't have the burning need for philosophy that Westerners do because we can obtain complete knowledge via simran.

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਸੁਝੈ ॥

Though I like reading philosophy. Reading Epictetus after some Seneca and Marcus Aurelius, it's not a patch on Gurbani.

But the ancient Greeks and Roman had some good ideas and they had some ideas of the divine  (not their Pantheon of God's like Zeus/Jupiter etc.)

If anything it was more advanced than when they took up those Judeo -Christian beliefs. 

Some of their thinking was more in-line with Dharmic thinking. 

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Guest Jagsaw_Singh
7 hours ago, BhForce said:

Sikhism needs neither a reformation nor a philosophy of free will. Reformations are for religions that are at a primitive tribal level in the first place. Sikhi starts off with Guru Nanak Ji feeding people langar, and preaching meditation of Satnam. If you start off with capturing war booty and sex slaves killing all the males, yeah, you need a reformation.

Philosophy is (mostly) for people trying desperately to understand the universe without real divine knowledge. These types of efforts are called ਸਿਆਣਪਾਂ in Gurbani. (You did you Japji this morning, right?) All of these sianapan don't amount to a hill of beans. We don't have the burning need for philosophy that Westerners do because we can obtain complete knowledge via simran.

ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੈ ਸਿਮਰਨਿ ਸਭੁ ਕਿਛੁ ਸੁਝੈ ॥

Nobody said Sikhi needs a reformation BhForce. You know that. What both myself and YoYo said was that Islam needs a reformation.

Regarding Sikhi, I said we need to be mindful because our parcharaks tend to be unpadhs rather than full of worldly knowledge. I alluded to the fact that whilst Sikhi as a religion is perfect we Sikhs as a people tend to be downright dumb. But even that is not such a new statement as many in the past have stated that Sikhism is the greatest religion the world has ever seen which unfortunately has been largely passed down to the most rubbish of people (the Punjabis).

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We don't have the burning need for philosophy that Westerners do because we can obtain complete knowledge via simran

Let me start off by stating that he philosophy i think you're talking about - so-called 'western philosophy' (ancient Greek) is not really western philosophy. At the time of the great Greek philosophers, people like Plato and Socrates were publicly stating that they were looking to the civilised areas of the world (Persia / India) for both inspiration of thought and target audience. Both Plato and Socrates publicly declared that north of them (i.e what we know today as Europe proper, especially the Germanic tribes) were semi-cavemen savages who could barely be taught to stand up straight let alone understand philosophical theories. Later on, when western european scientists wanted to use science as a means of displaying their superiority over everyone else they came up with a concept of 'race'. As a way of showing the 'white race' as superior they used ancient Greek philosophy. They didn't use any philosophy as such but the mere fact that it existed. They used it's existence as a way of proving how the white race was the master of civilisation against the non-white babarians. They don't ever mention how the ancient Greeks themselves wrote extensively how they see the east (i.e us) as the true civilised and the europeans (whites) as barbarian savages. That in itself is irony. But what is more ironic is how today, as you have just alluded to, the civilised easterners (i.e. us) have bought into white racist's lie and agree with the thing they deliberately made up just to keep you down: i.e. it is western philosophy invented for and by 'westerners'.  So you see, that is what I meant by maintaining a thirst for knowledge. Without it one not only knows nothing but will also never know what others are doing to them. So.....after I spent 2 messages explaining to you that 'philosophy' is not what you think it is it tells us a lot about our general intellectual decline that you once again associate it purely on the professional philosophers of the past. Philosophy-Love-Sofia-Loving knowledge - is the way Pochetinnho gets Spurs to play as a unit, it is the gegenpressing of Jurgen Klopp, it is the vegetarianism of Pythagoras and it is the public masturbation of Diogenes. It is everything. It is life. To say we don't need philosophy is to say we don't need life.

Quote

 

Though I like reading philosophy. Reading Epictetus after some Seneca and Marcus Aurelius, it's not a patch on Gurbani.

But the ancient Greeks and Roman had some good ideas and they had some ideas of the divine  (not their Pantheon of God's like Zeus/Jupiter etc.)

If anything it was more advanced than when they took up those Judeo -Christian beliefs. 

Some of their thinking was more in-line with Dharmic thinking. 

 

Absolutely agree Ranjeet.

As a dedicated Stoic myself I can honestly state that it is Marcus Aurelius' meditations that helps and guides me through my Sikhi. I became Amritdhari not too long ago and initially it became difficult when I observed how other Amritdhari Sikhs behave. The one and only thing that got me through that rough period was Marcus Aurelius as well as other Stoics. It not only helped me understand and appreciate better the words and order of my Guru but also to happily ignore and not have any interest at all in what 'those other sikhs' are getting up to. I can honestly state that the great Stoics have helped me become the very greatest Sikh I can be.

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Regarding Sikhi, I said we need to be mindful because our parcharaks tend to be unpadhs rather than full of worldly knowledge. 

What would you define as "unpadhs"?

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9 hours ago, Guest Jagsaw_Singh said:

Nobody said Sikhi needs a reformation BhForce. You know that. What both myself and YoYo said was that Islam needs a reformation.

Regarding Sikhi, I said we need to be mindful because our parcharaks tend to be unpadhs rather than full of worldly knowledge. I alluded to the fact that whilst Sikhi as a religion is perfect we Sikhs as a people tend to be downright dumb. But even that is not such a new statement as many in the past have stated that Sikhism is the greatest religion the world has ever seen which unfortunately has been largely passed down to the most rubbish of people (the Punjabis).

Let me start off by stating that he philosophy i think you're talking about - so-called 'western philosophy' (ancient Greek) is not really western philosophy. At the time of the great Greek philosophers, people like Plato and Socrates were publicly stating that they were looking to the civilised areas of the world (Persia / India) for both inspiration of thought and target audience. Both Plato and Socrates publicly declared that north of them (i.e what we know today as Europe proper, especially the Germanic tribes) were semi-cavemen savages who could barely be taught to stand up straight let alone understand philosophical theories. Later on, when western european scientists wanted to use science as a means of displaying their superiority over everyone else they came up with a concept of 'race'. As a way of showing the 'white race' as superior they used ancient Greek philosophy. They didn't use any philosophy as such but the mere fact that it existed. They used it's existence as a way of proving how the white race was the master of civilisation against the non-white babarians. They don't ever mention how the ancient Greeks themselves wrote extensively how they see the east (i.e us) as the true civilised and the europeans (whites) as barbarian savages. That in itself is irony. But what is more ironic is how today, as you have just alluded to, the civilised easterners (i.e. us) have bought into white racist's lie and agree with the thing they deliberately made up just to keep you down: i.e. it is western philosophy invented for and by 'westerners'.  So you see, that is what I meant by maintaining a thirst for knowledge. Without it one not only knows nothing but will also never know what others are doing to them. So.....after I spent 2 messages explaining to you that 'philosophy' is not what you think it is it tells us a lot about our general intellectual decline that you once again associate it purely on the professional philosoursikphers of the past. Philosophy-Love-Sofia-Loving knowledge - is the way Pochetinnho gets Spurs to play as a unit, it is the gegenpressing of Jurgen Klopp, it is the vegetarianism of Pythagoras and it is the public masturbation of Diogenes. It is everything. It is life. To say we don't need philosophy is to say we don't need life.

Absolutely agree Ranjeet.

As a dedicated Stoic myself I can honestly state that it is Marcus Aurelius' meditations that helps and guides me through my Sikhi. I became Amritdhari not too long ago and initially it became difficult when I observed how other Amritdhari Sikhs behave. The one and only thing that got me through that rough period was Marcus Aurelius as well as other Stoics. It not only helped me understand and appreciate better the words and order of my Guru but also to happily ignore and not have any interest at all in what 'those other sikhs' are getting up to. I can honestly state that the great Stoics have helped me become the very greatest Sikh I can be.

problem is  if you did a comparison of early gursikhs attitudes to life  and today's  it is zameen asmaan da farak ... today's breed are tainted with victorian interpretations of Godhead, complete with prudish attitudes to natural aspects of life , constant preaching at people about non-sikh ideas such as caste whilst maintaining it in lifestyle and in the gurdwarey. 

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Guest Haridas

Why do Parcharaks need 'worldly knowledge'? afterall, people go to Gurdwara to hear about Gurbani, not other philosophies.  I think its you who secretly puts 'worldly philosophy'  above Gurbani.  Why does anyone who reads Gurbani need Stoicism? "humkamee rajai chalna Nanak likhiaa naalay'/'jo Tudh bhaavai sae bhalee kar Tu sadaa Salamati Nirankar'.  I think you are the one who is 'uneducated' in basic Gurbani.

Its a very negative and nasty attitude to call Punjabis 'the most rubbish of people'.  Why kind of person thinks like that?  This seems like self-hatred.

I don't recall Socrates "publicly stating" that they were looking "to the civilised areas of the world (India/Persia)" or that "Europeans" were savages.  I have not read Plato, but I seriously doubt he did either.  Greeks and Persians were enemies.  And why do you keep bringing up Persia?  I think you secretly want to be Persian.  Again, self-hatred?

And all this stuff about 'white european scientists invented race to suppress us'- where are you writing from?  Berlin circa 1937???  The Victorians and the European Contemporaries were fascinated with different philosophies from around the world.  And to be fair, many developed cultures in history have seen outsiders as savages.  Have you heard the word malech?  Chinese and Japanese also saw outsides as savages.  so did Romans and Greeks.   

why are you so hateful of Europeans?  you are living in a European nation with a European education, and now turning around to mouth off at Europeans and Panjabis?

You're bad mouthing other Amritdharees, but you're so lacking in faith in Gurbani that you run to other philosophies.

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Guest Haridas
On 24/11/2017 at 7:42 PM, Ranjeet01 said:

The problem with all these Persian words is that makes us Punjabis look like a complete bunch of incompetents. 

It means that we could not come up with anything without the Persian introducing it to us.

 

India's climate is hot for 80% of the year and moist in Winter.  Cow slaughter was banned and leather probably not very popular (hence shoes not made).  Hence I don't think socks were high on the priority list?

I don't think the Persians think that.  However, if it bothers you that much, you could always call them socks?

 

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