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Some more Home Truths

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Guest Jagsaw_Singh
56 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

balidan is not appropriate as it is sacrifice for a ritual...

No point telling MrDoaba that JKVLondon. I tried telling both him and YoYo they were making themselves look illiterate by confusing animal sacrifice with human martyrdom :ehhh:   But what do we expect?   after all he's the ninkinpoop with the IQ of a 4 year old that thought he was paying for a real DNA Test to find his Jatt Scythian roots. Apparently the only one on earth that didn't know those tests are based on assumptions. To make matters worse he then only went and started his own thread about it oblivious to the fact he was announcing his low IQ to the whole world. Poor thing.

:p Not the sharpest tool in the box.

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3 minutes ago, Guest Premi5 said:

I met a middle aged Iraqi guy yesterday, he said Khuda Hafiz not Allah Hafiz.  What does that mean in a cultural sense ? 

Iraqi Shia. Shia is dominated by Iran and they have influence on Iraqi Shia.

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Guest Jagsaw_Singh
2 hours ago, MrDoaba said:

And what exactly is your point? Yes the word 'martyr' in current usage meaning sacrifice has an Indic root word. That doesn't mean the root word has the same connotations. 'mrit' doesn't necessarily mean sacrifice or martyrdom in the traditional sense.

Sacrifice ?????:hairan:    You do realise, don't you MrDoaba, that you are the only one in this discussion talking about 'sacrifice' whilst the rest of us have been talking about the word Martyr (shaheed) ????  

I swear you're like some lost little kid that wondered into a grown up discussion totally bewildered. Even the word Martyr doesn't mean 'martyr' in the "traditional sense". In the "traditional sense" it means remembering the dead. And it's taken from the olde punjabi (prakrit) word from 10,000 years ago that also meant 'remembering the dead'.

Have you wandered onto this discussion by mistake ?  Were you looking for a devil worshippers human sacrifice forum but ended up here by accident ?  I'm asking because you seem worryingly obsessed with the word sacrifice for some very unknown reason.

 

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16 minutes ago, Guest Jagsaw_Singh said:

No point telling MrDoaba that JKVLondon. I tried telling both him and YoYo they were making themselves look illiterate by confusing animal sacrifice with human martyrdom :ehhh:   But what do we expect?   after all he's the ninkinpoop with the IQ of a 4 year old that thought he was paying for a real DNA Test to find his Jatt Scythian roots. Apparently the only one on earth that didn't know those tests are based on assumptions. To make matters worse he then only went and started his own thread about it oblivious to the fact he was announcing his low IQ to the whole world. Poor thing.

:p Not the sharpest tool in the box.

jeevan vaarna is closer but that assumes ownership of the life which already was given to Guru ji for Amrit .  

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7 minutes ago, MrDoaba said:

Good point. Fact is though, there is a tendency for people to use Perso-Arabic terms amongst some sections of our community. What is the reason they choose do this when they know the native word?

That could be one reason for the increase, but do you mean it in the sense that it was done in an attempt to appeal to more Muslims or because all of society regardless of religion was becoming more Islamicised as you said? Could it have anything to do with Shia-Sikh relations?

The Punjabi Muslim who reveres Sufiism is a dying breed. The majority now scoff at qawwali/sufi inspired music. Wahhabism prevails.

Well to your first point, I think some of our people consider Perso-Arabic to be refined and sophisticated and they think it sounds sexy. This feeds into the inferiority complex.

To the second point, I think potentially the history of the compilation of our gurbani would provide patterns into what was happening in Punjab. When Guru Nanak Dev Ji was on this earth, Babur was making inroads. So when we look at the bani and see the vocabulary used,we could see how much Islamic influence was around at the time.

To the third point, Wahhabism is prevailing. My theory is that there is a proxy war going on between Iran and Saudi Arabia.

There is a proxy cultural war happening also.

When Arabs conquered the Persians, the Persians were converted to Islam. What the Persians did was to attempt to subvert Islam with their Persian imprint. So to stick 2 fingers to the Arabs they incorporated their own Persian language and culture into Islamic culture.

When you see Islamic influence in places such as the subcontinent, SE Asia, Central Asia,  Turkey etc what you are seeing is Persian influence.

Now the Gulf Arabs have money they are trying to reverse all the Persian influence.

That is why they are getting people to say Allah Hafiz instead of Khuda Hafiz for example.

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19 minutes ago, Guest Jagsaw_Singh said:

No point telling MrDoaba that JKVLondon. I tried telling both him and YoYo they were making themselves look illiterate by confusing animal sacrifice with human martyrdom :ehhh:   But what do we expect?   after all he's the ninkinpoop with the IQ of a 4 year old that thought he was paying for a real DNA Test to find his Jatt Scythian roots. Apparently the only one on earth that didn't know those tests are based on assumptions. To make matters worse he then only went and started his own thread about it oblivious to the fact he was announcing his low IQ to the whole world. Poor thing.

:p Not the sharpest tool in the box.

As usual more rhetoric coming out of your arse. The fact you talk without substance makes it clear you're probably an ardent follower of the likes of Zakir Naik.

And I didn't pay for a DNA test to find my "Jatt Scythian" roots, you're the one always banging on about your Jatt heritage. I was also quite well aware that it was estimate, if you had bothered to read my posts properly you would have seen that.

You're a confused bacha. Go and play with your jigsaw puzzle Jagsaw.

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2 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

Well to your first point, I think some of our people consider Perso-Arabic to be refined and sophisticated and they think it sounds sexy. This feeds into the inferiority complex.

To the second point, I think potentially the history of the compilation of our gurbani would provide patterns into what was happening in Punjab. When Guru Nanak Dev Ji was on this earth, Babur was making inroads. So when we look at the bani and see the vocabulary used,we could see how much Islamic influence was around at the time.

To the third point, Wahhabism is prevailing. My theory is that there is a proxy war going on between Iran and Saudi Arabia.

There is a proxy cultural war happening also.

When Arabs conquered the Persians, the Persians were converted to Islam. What the Persians did was to attempt to subvert Islam with their Persian imprint. So to stick 2 fingers to the Arabs they incorporated their own Persian language and culture into Islamic culture.

When you see Islamic influence in places such as the subcontinent, SE Asia, Central Asia,  Turkey etc what you are seeing is Persian influence.

Now the Gulf Arabs have money they are trying to reverse all the Persian influence.

That is why they are getting people to say Allah Hafiz instead of Khuda Hafiz for example.

persians culture was deeper and more developed than than the invaders and even the raiders had serious envy ...that's why they 'allowed' the architecture and arts flourish despite it being haram according to their eyes . What the arabs planned was to bask in its reflected glory , now with the advent of oil money they can buy their way to being admired and can remake their image to suit without the persian influence. the proxy wars is accelerating because oil is running low now

how close was proto punjabi to the early persian languages?

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Guest Jagsaw_Singh
Quote

My theory is that there is a proxy war going on between Iran and Saudi Arabia

What you mean "your theory" Ranjeet ?  The proxy war between Iran and Saudi Arabia is the obvious worldwide known fact that is in every paper and every news broadcast. And you think it is just "your" own personal "theory" that you just thought of in your own mind just now ?    Well done. :clap:

Quote

To the second point, I think potentially the history of the compilation of our gurbani would provide patterns into what was happening in Punjab. When Guru Nanak Dev Ji was on this earth, Babur was making inroads. So when we look at the bani and see the vocabulary used,we could see how much Islamic influence was around at the time.

That's a very good point Ranjeet. The Islam at the time of our Gurus was very different to the Islam that we have today. It was a faith of poetry, love and ground-breaking philosophy (Punjabi word falasafa - I'll come back to this at the end). Indeed it was through the philosophy of Islam that the world was re-introduced to the Aristotle and the philosophy of the ancient Greeks. Indeed at that time to be a Muslim was to be a true lover of Sophia. But then that changed when a particular brand of philosophy came about and got popular. This brand is harsh, strict and non-forgiving...and once you embrace that philosophy there is no going back to softer tones because this philosophy condemns all others as false. And Islam has been stuck in the harsh version of Islam ever since. They reached the point of no return.

We may wonder how and under what circumstances a faith reaches that point of no return but the fact is to a certain extent we Sikhs are doing the same thing right now. Let me give you an example of how, now that we are no longer lovers of Sophia, we are following the footsteps of the Muslims:

As you know I like nothing better than to sit down with the bajurgs and listen to their stories. Whenever I talk to any of the old timers that were around the Sikh Gurdwaras of China, Hong Kong, Thailand, Indonesia, Australia  etc in the early 1900s they always tell me that the Sikh community and Gurdwaras grew solely because of the Sindhi Hindus. They told me it was always Sindhi Hindu women who could and would read Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji and look after Guru ji. It was always Sindhi Hindu women that sang kirtan for the congregation.

So, lets look at it this way. The (the Sindhi Hindus) are largely responsible for our succesfull spiritual growth in the west but now we've reached such a no going back philosophical stage we wouldn't even dream of letting Sindhi Hindu women be our granthis in the Gurdwaras. So you see we too are now, without knowing it, a  bit like the Muslims. Like them, once we stopped being lovers of Sophia we became locked in an embrace with dogma. Sophia makes for a prettier embrace than dogma but dogma stays your companion 'till the bitter end. You can't divorce your old girl dogma. Once you tie the knot with her you're tied for life. Being a lover of Sophia is now a distant thing of the past.

Now, you remember I said near the start of my message that I'd come back to the Punjabi word for philosophy (falasafa). I wanted to mention it again here because I wanted to show how it ties in with words in the Punjabi language that come from Arabic but have no actual value when used in Punjabi and so should, perhaps, be expunged from Punjabi. The word Philosophy in it's proper sense means to love (phil) knowledge (sofia). We are Sikhs...i.e those who thirst for knowledge. So, in so many ways we Sikhs should be world's greatest lovers of sophia. But instead we take a meaningless Arabic corruption of the world philosophy and incorporate that into our language as 'the word'.  It's up to each of us individually I think to resist the closed embrace of dogma and return to the loving open arms of sofia. Its not easy...I know more than anyone how you will suffer for it by being called names and ridiculed. But a step by step divorce from dogma is vital if one wishes to develop a deep and meaningful relationship with one's language, history, culture and faith. When one understands that one understands how the everyday Islam during our Guru's time was very different to the everyday Islam of today.

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I reiterate again that we need to purge only our vernacular of Perso-Arabic influences, and leave Gurbani as it is.

This change can only happen over the next generation, as we teach our kids to speak indigenous words and not pass on Perso-Arabic words. So instead of passing on dunya, you pass on sansaar to your children. This will start the change. And I limit this not only to Perso-Arabic influences, but also English as well. I cringe when I myself or anyway mixes the two languages. Each language has its own beauty and deserves to be spoken with respect, and mixing words from foreign languages is disrespect. 

We need to unearth the pre-Islamic Punjabi lexicon in order for this to be done. We can draw from 11th century Nath poetry to find Punjabi words that have been killed by their Perso-Arabic replacements. We can also draw from similar or parent languages such as Prakrits (e.g. Pali) and Sanskrit (though some users on here oppose this).

We need to actively do this as a community and not as individuals. We as a community will have to settle on an agreement and revise the Punjabi lexicon, and set up a new Shabdkosh.

If you respect your mother-tongue Punjabi, then you will agree with this needed revision. What respect are we giving our language by burying its own words into obscurity for the words spoken by foreign invaders, that’s called neglect and is disrespectful to our heritage.

As Ranjeet has already stated many of our own are spineless and think that Arabic and Farsi words are more soulful, romantic, respectful, and intelligent. And so they cling on to these foreign words and it’s one of the reasons these words have trickled down from the past to the present. We need to change their backstabbing opinions or completely ignore their nagging and move on ahead with this needed revision.

Edited by TejS
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15 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

Well to your first point, I think some of our people consider Perso-Arabic to be refined and sophisticated and they think it sounds sexy. This feeds into the inferiority complex.

The romantic factor definitely plays a part. Too many Waris Shah wannabes. It was the early Arab invaders who had an inferiority complex themselves, due to the fact they adopted Persian. I think this rubbed off on the Punjabi Muslim majority, and that in turn influenced the native Hindu and Sikh population. It's the same reason why Urdu is so popular among them today.

18 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

To the second point, I think potentially the history of the compilation of our gurbani would provide patterns into what was happening in Punjab. When Guru Nanak Dev Ji was on this earth, Babur was making inroads. So when we look at the bani and see the vocabulary used,we could see how much Islamic influence was around at the time.

True. The animosity towards Sikhs was stronger during the period of the later Gurus, namely when Sikhs were beginning to wield more political power. Maybe it was in an effort to cement their power as rulers, in some ways emulating the Mughal Empires use of Persian, which in itself is a non-secular language?

28 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

To the third point, Wahhabism is prevailing. My theory is that there is a proxy war going on between Iran and Saudi Arabia.

There is a proxy cultural war happening also.

When Arabs conquered the Persians, the Persians were converted to Islam. What the Persians did was to attempt to subvert Islam with their Persian imprint. So to stick 2 fingers to the Arabs they incorporated their own Persian language and culture into Islamic culture.

When you see Islamic influence in places such as the subcontinent, SE Asia, Central Asia,  Turkey etc what you are seeing is Persian influence.

Now the Gulf Arabs have money they are trying to reverse all the Persian influence.

That is why they are getting people to say Allah Hafiz instead of Khuda Hafiz for example.

I've met quite a few Farsi/Dari speakers myself and it's evident. Most of them still strongly identify with their culture, and of course it's a well known fact that that Iranians hate being associated all things Arab.. As for the Islamic influence in the subcontinent etc being Persian, it's true but even this is now disappearing in more than one aspect. A good example is clothing - many Indian and Pakistanis are now ditching the salwar kameez and kurta pajama in favour of the Arab jubba. A fickle bunch.

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2 hours ago, Guest Jagsaw_Singh said:

Sacrifice ?????:hairan:    You do realise, don't you MrDoaba, that you are the only one in this discussion talking about 'sacrifice' whilst the rest of us have been talking about the word Martyr (shaheed) ????  

I swear you're like some lost little kid that wondered into a grown up discussion totally bewildered. Even the word Martyr doesn't mean 'martyr' in the "traditional sense". In the "traditional sense" it means remembering the dead. And it's taken from the olde punjabi (prakrit) word from 10,000 years ago that also meant 'remembering the dead'.

Have you wandered onto this discussion by mistake ?  Were you looking for a devil worshippers human sacrifice forum but ended up here by accident ?  I'm asking because you seem worryingly obsessed with the word sacrifice for some very unknown reason.

 

You do realise, don't you Jagsaw, that no one is impressed with your knowledge of the etymology of (any) words. Who is the rest of us? So far only I've engaged with you on this irrelevant piece of information you seem intent on repeating.

And please do enlighten us as to what a shaheed is in Sikhi? Oh that's right, someone who has sacrificed their life for Dharam.

Balidaan also refers to attaining martyrdom, or attaining shaheedi. When one is given the title of martyr or shaheed it means they are an individual who has sacrificed their life for righteousness and truth.

Is that simple enough for you? Or has that syphilis you contracted by spending all that time with Zakir Naik et al in your gusulkhanna completely rotted your dimaak out?

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49 minutes ago, MrDoaba said:

You do realise, don't you Jagsaw, that no one is impressed with your knowledge of the etymology of (any) words. Who is the rest of us? So far only I've engaged with you on this irrelevant piece of information you seem intent on repeating.

And please do enlighten us as to what a shaheed is in Sikhi? Oh that's right, someone who has sacrificed their life for Dharam.

Balidaan also refers to attaining martyrdom, or attaining shaheedi. When one is given the title of martyr or shaheed it means they are an individual who has sacrificed their life for righteousness and truth.

Is that simple enough for you? Or has that syphilis you contracted by spending all that time with Zakir Naik et al in your gusulkhanna completely rotted your dimaak out?

That's the second time you mentioned the name Zakir Nalik. Who is he and, more importantly, why is he so important to you that you need to keep mentioning his name to us ?  Is he a long lost homosexual love of yours that you can't stop mentioning? Who is he MrDoaba ?

Because I find you hideously dull MrDoaba, not to mention a mental midget, I wouldn't be seen dead on one of your threads. I'd feel embarrassed even being seen to associate with the muppet that pays for online DNA test scams and then tells the world about it.....So what keeps bringing you to mine all day every day ?  You're about as welcome on my thread as a genital wart on a sunny day and the stigma of having the low IQ dufus that paid good money to have a fake online DNA test done is difficult to shake off.

So, just out of interest, why on earth are you here on my thread joining in on my discussions that I instigated and furthered ?  It just seems so retarded to repeatedly go onto someone's discussion thread just to tell them how rubbish their discussion is. Of course the retardness was well demonstrated with the online DNA test scam you fell for but your constant appearance on a thread on which you're neither welcome nor have anything to add except dull one dimensional children's wiki-pedia type utterings has taken retard to a whole new level. Why do you keep coming back ?

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Guest JagTROLL needsOxygen

Why is the resident pro-Pakistani sycophant Jagsaw Khan aka West London Khan being given a platform? This pro-Muslim Islamophilic troll despises Sikhs who are not Jatt but rejoices in telling us glorious stories relating to the religion promoting paedophilia and slavery (Islam). For many years this clown had been defending Muslim groomers and the Pakistani Genocide of Sikhs shamelessly 

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On 11/22/2017 at 4:22 AM, TejS said:

Again taking my comment out of context. Perhaps you should go read my original post in the DNA testing thread.

Bro, it's one thing to read previous posts in the current thread for context. It's quite another to expect posters to have read posts in another thread. 

OK, is this post the one you're referring to? 

You are right in saying that Punjabi doesn't have roots in Persian or Arabic. But (I believe) that's not an argument for not learning Persian. The analogue would be saying that English doesn't have roots in Latin. Correct, it doesn't; it has Germanic roots. But would you argue that there's no point in learning Latin, since English's roots are Germanic?

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4 minutes ago, BhForce said:

Bro, it's one thing to read previous posts in the current thread for context. It's quite another to expect posters to have read posts in another thread. 

OK, is this post the one you're referring to? 

You are right in saying that Punjabi doesn't have roots in Persian or Arabic. But (I believe) that's not an argument for not learning Persian. The analogue would be saying that English doesn't have roots in Latin. Correct, it doesn't; it has Germanic roots. But would you argue that there's no point in learning Latin, since English's roots are Germanic?

I guess I should have quoted my original post to make things flow better.

And no I’m not saying we shouldn’t learn Farsi, absolutely not. It’s a great intellectual pursuit, however when one says that as a community we should all learn Farsi or when one says that Persian (and any foreign language) influences in vernacular Punjabi should stay is where I disagree. 

Edited by TejS
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