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MisterrSingh

Compassion & Tolerance Vs Common Sense & Self-preservation

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jkvlondon    3,419
29 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

In a nutshell: made ourselves docile. 

time to embrace pita ji's bani wholeheartedly , the rise of the kalyugi mind is upon us ...

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Jacfsing2    1,845
8 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

time to embrace pita ji's bani wholeheartedly , the rise of the kalyugi mind is upon us ...

Honestly I think they hate any form of Rass, (Bir or Naam), would they like the Bir Rass shabads from Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? I don't really expect it. Examples of Bir Rass from Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji: "ਸਲੋਕ ਕਬੀਰ ॥

Salok Kabeer ||

सलोक कबीर ॥

Shalok, Kabeer:

47474 ਪੰ. ੪ 

 

ਗਗਨ ਦਮਾਮਾ ਬਾਜਿਓ ਪਰਿਓ ਨੀਸਾਨੈ ਘਾਉ ॥

Gagan Dhamaamaa Baajiou Pariou Neesaanai Ghaao ||

गगन दमामा बाजिओ परिओ नीसानै घाउ ॥

The battle-drum beats in the sky of the mind; aim is taken, and the wound is inflicted.

47475 ਮਾਰੂ (ਭ. ਕਬੀਰ) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੧੦੫ ਪੰ. ੪ 
Raag Maaroo Bhagat Kabir

ਖੇਤੁ ਜੁ ਮਾਂਡਿਓ ਸੂਰਮਾ ਅਬ ਜੂਝਨ ਕੋ ਦਾਉ ॥੧॥

Khaeth J Maanddiou Sooramaa Ab Joojhan Ko Dhaao ||1||

खेतु जु मांडिओ सूरमा अब जूझन को दाउ ॥१॥

The spiritual warriors enter the field of battle; now is the time to fight! ||1||

47476 ਮਾਰੂ (ਭ. ਕਬੀਰ) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੧੦੫ ਪੰ. ੫ 
Raag Maaroo Bhagat Kabir

ਸੂਰਾ ਸੋ ਪਹਿਚਾਨੀਐ ਜੁ ਲਰੈ ਦੀਨ ਕੇ ਹੇਤ ॥

Sooraa So Pehichaaneeai J Larai Dheen Kae Haeth ||

सूरा सो पहिचानीऐ जु लरै दीन के हेत ॥

He alone is known as a spiritual hero, who fights in defense of religion.

47477 ਮਾਰੂ (ਭ. ਕਬੀਰ) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੧੦੫ ਪੰ. ੫ 
Raag Maaroo Bhagat Kabir

ਪੁਰਜਾ ਪੁਰਜਾ ਕਟਿ ਮਰੈ ਕਬਹੂ ਨ ਛਾਡੈ ਖੇਤੁ ॥੨॥੨॥

Purajaa Purajaa Katt Marai Kabehoo N Shhaaddai Khaeth ||2||2||

पुरजा पुरजा कटि मरै कबहू न छाडै खेतु ॥२॥२॥

He may be cut apart, piece by piece, but he never leaves the field of battle. ||2||2||

47478 ਮਾਰੂ (ਭ. ਕਬੀਰ) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੧੦੫ ਪੰ. ੬ 
Raag Maaroo Bhagat Kabir" (Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Ang 1105) (Forgive the copy pasting mistake; used to copy and paste from Srigranth.org but that's temporarily closed and don't have access to a Gurmukhi keyboard though would appreciate if someone showed me one). There are other shabads in Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji for Bir Rass, don't expect missionaries to read it, so they really are just playing religious politics.

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jkvlondon    3,419
1 minute ago, Jacfsing2 said:

Honestly I think they hate any form of Rass, (Bir or Naam), would they like the Bir Rass shabads from Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? I don't really expect it. Examples of Bir Rass from Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji: "ਸਲੋਕ ਕਬੀਰ ॥

Salok Kabeer ||

सलोक कबीर ॥

Shalok, Kabeer:

47474 ਪੰ. ੪ 

 

ਗਗਨ ਦਮਾਮਾ ਬਾਜਿਓ ਪਰਿਓ ਨੀਸਾਨੈ ਘਾਉ ॥

Gagan Dhamaamaa Baajiou Pariou Neesaanai Ghaao ||

गगन दमामा बाजिओ परिओ नीसानै घाउ ॥

The battle-drum beats in the sky of the mind; aim is taken, and the wound is inflicted.

47475 ਮਾਰੂ (ਭ. ਕਬੀਰ) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੧੦੫ ਪੰ. ੪ 
Raag Maaroo Bhagat Kabir

ਖੇਤੁ ਜੁ ਮਾਂਡਿਓ ਸੂਰਮਾ ਅਬ ਜੂਝਨ ਕੋ ਦਾਉ ॥੧॥

Khaeth J Maanddiou Sooramaa Ab Joojhan Ko Dhaao ||1||

खेतु जु मांडिओ सूरमा अब जूझन को दाउ ॥१॥

The spiritual warriors enter the field of battle; now is the time to fight! ||1||

47476 ਮਾਰੂ (ਭ. ਕਬੀਰ) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੧੦੫ ਪੰ. ੫ 
Raag Maaroo Bhagat Kabir

ਸੂਰਾ ਸੋ ਪਹਿਚਾਨੀਐ ਜੁ ਲਰੈ ਦੀਨ ਕੇ ਹੇਤ ॥

Sooraa So Pehichaaneeai J Larai Dheen Kae Haeth ||

सूरा सो पहिचानीऐ जु लरै दीन के हेत ॥

He alone is known as a spiritual hero, who fights in defense of religion.

47477 ਮਾਰੂ (ਭ. ਕਬੀਰ) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੧੦੫ ਪੰ. ੫ 
Raag Maaroo Bhagat Kabir

ਪੁਰਜਾ ਪੁਰਜਾ ਕਟਿ ਮਰੈ ਕਬਹੂ ਨ ਛਾਡੈ ਖੇਤੁ ॥੨॥੨॥

Purajaa Purajaa Katt Marai Kabehoo N Shhaaddai Khaeth ||2||2||

पुरजा पुरजा कटि मरै कबहू न छाडै खेतु ॥२॥२॥

He may be cut apart, piece by piece, but he never leaves the field of battle. ||2||2||

47478 ਮਾਰੂ (ਭ. ਕਬੀਰ) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੧੦੫ ਪੰ. ੬ 
Raag Maaroo Bhagat Kabir" (Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Ang 1105) (Forgive the copy pasting mistake; used to copy and paste from Srigranth.org but that's temporarily closed and don't have access to a Gurmukhi keyboard though would appreciate if someone showed me one). There are other shabads in Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji for Bir Rass, don't expect missionaries to read it, so they really are just playing religious politics.

this is true , Guru Nanak Dev ji wasn't some weak pious sadhu he was determined sure warrior for the truth. If you Read really read Guru ji constantly tells you to get up, and stay up , fight the good fight, face down evil and oppression within and without. Dasam Bani gives specific ways to fight but the start of the fighting spirit is in Guru Granth Sahib ji.

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dallysingh101    1,582
26 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

We've shot ourselves in the foot. Cursed ourselves perhaps.

 

That makes sense considering all we know and perceive to be our natural proclivities as Punjabis. It's a shame there's been a considerable mythologising of our history, almost as if what occurred was thousands of years ago in an idealised pre-history akin to the events of Indian mythology.

It's even simpler than that. Apnay adopted the white Anglo style of 'historiography' over our own 'warts and all' indigenous style. 

They essentially imitated the way Anglos use 'history' as a form of propaganda as opposed to a record of the truth. Anglo values of the time (repressed, conservative, protestant) were used as barometers of what was good and bad behaviour. 

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MisterrSingh    2,802
28 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

this is true , Guru Nanak Dev ji wasn't some weak pious sadhu he was determined sure warrior for the truth. If you Read really read Guru ji constantly tells you to get up, and stay up , fight the good fight, face down evil and oppression within and without. Dasam Bani gives specific ways to fight but the start of the fighting spirit is in Guru Granth Sahib ji.

This needs to be repeated more often. It'll help the likes of me from not labouring under erroneous illusions. 

We really aren't being helped in any way by our parcharaks, are we? What's their purpose if illiterates such as myself only discover certain truths by complete accident? 

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jkvlondon    3,419
33 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

This needs to be repeated more often. It'll help the likes of me from not labouring under erroneous illusions. 

We really aren't being helped in any way by our parcharaks, are we? What's their purpose if illiterates such as myself only discover certain truths by complete accident? 

but is it an accident ? whatever you read is Guru ji talking to you , remember that.

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Jacfsing2    1,845

Don't know if these are legit, but someone took pictures of some of Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji's Shastar: 

Shasters of SatGuru Nanak Dev Sahib ji

 (Not doubting that Guru Sahib owned Shastars just confused if these were his)? 

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Jacfsing2    1,845
40 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

We really aren't being helped in any way by our parcharaks, are we? What's their purpose if illiterates such as myself only discover certain truths by complete accident? 

It's a business for Gurdwaras to keep people ignorant, it's been going on since the Singh Sabha Movement and the rise of New Age Pracharks: (3HO and others that aren't Gurmat oriented). With the rise of internet this information is more readily available so there could be a new rise in future generations with this knowledge.

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Ranjeet01    1,098
14 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

Unless I've completely misunderstood the essence of Guru Granth Sahib Ji, it's exactly the lack of that sense of pragmatism that i find to be concerning on a personal level. It is beautifully aspirational on a spiritual level, and appeals to our higher selves in a way that makes one frustrated with the contradictions of human nature that make practicing everything in Gurbani such a heartfelt struggle. Is that why Dasam Bani was always in parkash with SGGS Ji back in the day; because it provided a necessary counterpoint and pragmatic balance to the idealistic purity of SGGS Ji? If so, what the heck have we done by removing Dasam Bani from its rightful place?

I sometimes think we approach bani in the way a Christian looks to the bible or the Muslim looks to the Koran.

Bani is the living guru. What bani does is bring out what exists in you already.

We argue on the forum using quotes from the Guru Granth Sahib to prove our point. In a way we act very abrahamically. 

I think the reason for bani is that some people "don't get it" and need examples over and over again to understand. Others will  "get it " intuitively, ultimately it's all within you.

I do agree with Dally that the British presence has impacted how we see Sikhi and I think that the western mindset is very black and white and they do not get contradictions the way an Eastern mindset understands.

Unfortunately, we have to live the Ghristi Jeevan life, we could make it easy for ourselves and live like monks or hermits but part of mother nature is to ensure that the next batch of sentient life-forms are born through re-production and have the opportunity of gaining mukhti. 

The beauty of  spiritual living is to see how it copes with everyday living with all the fustrations that it entails. To help with that you need the pragmatic understanding of human nature. 

The pragmatism and spiritualism are not mutually exclusive, they work hand in hand. 

The westernised brain would call this duality.  But the reality is if you embrace both sides there is no more duality.

You see it's all part of Maharaj's hukam, and it is all part of larger game that is played. 

Maharaj has a great sense of humour.

I always ask the question as to why Dashmesh Pita wrote the Dasam Bani and why it is a lot less known in contemporary times.

But I think you already as well as other posters have answered that question.

 

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MisterrSingh    2,802
2 hours ago, Ranjeet01 said:

I sometimes think we approach bani in the way a Christian looks to the bible or the Muslim looks to the Koran.

Bani is the living guru. What bani does is bring out what exists in you already.

We argue on the forum using quotes from the Guru Granth Sahib to prove our point. In a way we act very abrahamically. 

I think the reason for bani is that some people "don't get it" and need examples over and over again to understand. Others will  "get it " intuitively, ultimately it's all within you.

I do agree with Dally that the British presence has impacted how we see Sikhi and I think that the western mindset is very black and white and they do not get contradictions the way an Eastern mindset understands.

Unfortunately, we have to live the Ghristi Jeevan life, we could make it easy for ourselves and live like monks or hermits but part of mother nature is to ensure that the next batch of sentient life-forms are born through re-production and have the opportunity of gaining mukhti. 

The beauty of  spiritual living is to see how it copes with everyday living with all the fustrations that it entails. To help with that you need the pragmatic understanding of human nature. 

The pragmatism and spiritualism are not mutually exclusive, they work hand in hand. 

The westernised brain would call this duality.  But the reality is if you embrace both sides there is no more duality.

You see it's all part of Maharaj's hukam, and it is all part of larger game that is played. 

Maharaj has a great sense of humour.

I always ask the question as to why Dashmesh Pita wrote the Dasam Bani and why it is a lot less known in contemporary times.

But I think you already as well as other posters have answered that question.

Thanks, that's a brilliant post that's got me thinking about a lot. 

So basically I've got to de-program and unlearn everything pertaining to this issue, that's been drummed into me since childhood as a result of being born in the West, and then re-learn it from the Eastern perspective? Oh god, lol.

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Ranjeet01    1,098
10 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

Thanks, that's a brilliant post that's got me thinking about a lot. 

So basically I've got to de-program and unlearn everything pertaining to this issue, that's been drummed into me since childhood as a result of being born in the West, and then re-learn it from the Eastern perspective? Oh god, lol.

We must unlearn what we have learnt.

The Western ways are not without it's merits and it does have it's uses.

Some of these truths were already known in the west through Greek and Roman Philosophy.

But I think the Abrahamic thinking and mindset has definitely stunted the spiritualism in the West.

I think if you read bani without the western filter and read it with your intuition things will make a lot more sense.

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dallysingh101    1,582
On 4/1/2017 at 3:44 PM, MisterrSingh said:

Thanks, that's a brilliant post that's got me thinking about a lot. 

So basically I've got to de-program and unlearn everything pertaining to this issue, that's been drummed into me since childhood as a result of being born in the West, and then re-learn it from the Eastern perspective? Oh god, lol.

You're lucky mate. It's easier than you think (but not easy if you know what I mean). Once you go through it, you'll start seeing and experiencing our thing like it was supposed to be seen and experienced. All that dogma falls in place. It's like finally coming from underneath an uncomfortable shadow you've been born under. It's liberating. 

BTW, the faulty conceptions don't arise from being born in the west, rather because Sikhi was projected a certain way (i.e. as 'Sikhism') by articulate, patronised (in both senses of the word) and powerful Sikhs during colonialism. Their conceptualisations still form (or at least influence) majority thought in our community today. I'm not saying they got everything wrong, but hammering our heritage to an outsiders framework has changed it. 

 

Edited by dallysingh101
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MisterrSingh    2,802
26 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

BTW, the faulty conceptions don't arise from being born in the west, rather because Sikhi was projected a certain way (i.e. as 'Sikhism') by articulate, patronised (in both senses of the word) and powerful Sikhs during colonialism. Their conceptualisations still form (or at least influence) majority thought in our community today. I'm saying they got everything wrong, but hammering our heritage to an outsiders framework has changed it. 

I'm not sure who I should be more irritated with: the colonialists or the sellouts from within our ranks, lol. 

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Jacfsing2    1,845
1 hour ago, MisterrSingh said:

Thanks, that's a brilliant post that's got me thinking about a lot. 

So basically I've got to de-program and unlearn everything pertaining to this issue, that's been drummed into me since childhood as a result of being born in the West, and then re-learn it from the Eastern perspective? Oh god, lol.

We are still blessed because our Gurus actually wrote and checked Bani; if you compare that to the 3 Abrahamic religions; they've lost the original teachings of their prophets; (Judaism is on the same verge of collapse especially since they contradict the Torah's own prophesies). Also no body really knows the real teachings of Buddha; or actual Hinduism and Jainism. If you read simply Japji Sahib you are more blessed than every Non-Sikh out there, because it's actually written by Guru Sahib himself. And we know the fate of all of those tribal religions: :@ they got extinct and only exist as cosplay where you can dress like those tribal devti.:@It's a bit silly though,:rofl but you can't learn about those religions actual beliefs even if you wanted to.:/

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genie    1,109
On 31/03/2017 at 1:35 PM, MisterrSingh said:

I came across a couple of unfortunate incidents in the news recently that served to get me thinking about issues that i suppose go to the heart of Sikh philosophy. We are instructed not to veer towards extremes; that the correct path is the balanced, considered middle way. Sikhi is as much a faith about standing up for oneself and battling for those who cannot defend themselves, as it is a faith that believes that love and kindness are essential traits if we are to live fruitful lives, and eventually merge with God.

How does one decide which situation merits a particular approach? Some Sikhs would have us believe that the default position must always be the one of tolerance and kindness even in the face of the overwhelming likelihood of serious harm befalling the individual who refuses to be mindful of their own welfare, instead choosing to believe in the goodness of others even when the evidence points to the contrary. 

Is it the right option to "be good" but then suffer terribly as a consequence, or should we be selective with our charitable nature, and only be forthcoming dependent on the situation before us? Which way would bring us closer to God's graces? 

Here's two recent instances that got me thinking. All opinions welcome.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/03/30/mother-son-die-triple-stabbing-home/

http://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2017/03/white_social_justice_warrior_dies_at_hands_of_black_killer_.html

First: A wealthy family begin providing the local homeless with a roof over their heads by taking them into their own considerably plush home. Yesterday, allegedly, the latest homeless man who was lodging with them went on a rampage, and killed the mother and son of the family. The father was found stabbed and bleeding in the driveway.

Second: A white social activist heavily involved in the liberal scene of upper middle class activism was robbed, stabbed, tortured, and murdered by a black man. She spent most of her days espousing on social media about the evils of whiteness, and that black society was a perpetual victim of the insidiousness of white America. She refused to accept that there could ever be bad apples in the black community. She met her end alone and in an utterly tragic manner. 

Edit: In the case of the American woman, i was initially reluctant to use a right-wing website as the source, but all other sites and reports neglected to mention her political views and opinions that she shared on social media. For some reason they only seemed to highlight her work as an artist but not her beliefs. A lot was glossed over or completely ignored in the case of the lady in question.

 

Selective charity is the best approach I find personally. To be charitable to everyone or the really undeserving is not going to help you or that person in the long run. In nature we can see a snake will always be a snake and try to attack you because its been programmed to do so, you cant change its nature or DNA. Just as a low life murderous / rapist  criminal who has been brought up and raised with wrong programming in his/her mind will find it very difficult to be a good person especially if they haven't been reprogrammed by "good" religious teachings for a long time.

For us sikhs the middle path is best and what sikhi teaches to be balanced and rational human beings to learn the ways of the world not to be like ostrich sticking our heads in the sands and letting ourselves get caught up in events that we should have seen coming. Our ideology is not mentally insane inhumane immoral violence like islam nor mostly pacifist beliefs like Christianity (turn the other cheek), buddhism and jainism.

In Sikhism there is provision for extreme deadly violence in scriptures (e.g sikh national anthem and gurbani glorying warriors who may be cut limb by limb but never flee battlefield in defense of the Sikh religion, etc).
As the old english saying goes no good deed goes without being punished. Meaning those who do good will eventually be punished with evil visiting them. We can see that is true in life that good people who do good deeds often get victimised by evil forces. And that is where Sikhi teaches us that violence can be used against those evil forces if all the means of reason or to stop the tyranny goes without any success.

Maybe its a way to pay their karmic debts but we know in Sikh theology and history that is how Sikhs have understood it. Whenever bad things happen to people it is karma for there past or present bad deeds and they just have to accept it. Even "bad events" are gifts as Guru Nanak dev ji explains in japji sahib, we humans cant comprehend them as gifts because they have a negative impact on us but I guess that is how our karmic debts are repaid so that our souls may be purified for the next stage in our spiritual journey.

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