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Compassion & Tolerance Vs Common Sense & Self-preservation


MisterrSingh
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4 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

I don't get this bit here. What are you trying to say bro? 

That we were always a bit ruthless and rough even in the so-called golden days, but the narrative had been airbrushed to make us seem chilled and accommodating, as if every Sikh alive was a potential saint. There was always dodgy people who considered themselves Sikhs, even in the times of the Gurus. I remember reading about a Sikh who came to Dasme Paatshah to complain that his missus had run off with his Muslim neighbour, lol. That's the kind of thing they'll never mention in Gurdwaras. 

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36 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

The path that you are alluding to is one where balance must be struck between compassion and self-preservation.

They may seem be completely contradictory but the almighty in his hukam has created great paradoxes in human nature.

It is often said that those that bite the hand that feeds them often lick the boots that kick them.

Just because one is streetwise and puts oneself first does not mean that that one cannot be compassionate. 

You cannot help others unless you do not put yourself first. Call it enlightened self-interest.

I think where we get confused in Sikhi with our compassion, is that the narrative is constantly about shaheedi, our selfless sacrifice for others.

However, Shaheedi is not something that is taken lightly but I believe that during Purataan times when we were hunted down my Mughals, our forefathers had to put themselves first. They only stuck their necks out to rescue Hindu captives when they were in a position to do so. They only do Shaheedi if it necessary and it would bring further gains.

However, with Contemporary Sikhs, I think we romanticize this and look at this aspect with rose tinted glasses.

Unless I've completely misunderstood the essence of Guru Granth Sahib Ji, it's exactly the lack of that sense of pragmatism that i find to be concerning on a personal level. It is beautifully aspirational on a spiritual level, and appeals to our higher selves in a way that makes one frustrated with the contradictions of human nature that make practicing everything in Gurbani such a heartfelt struggle. Is that why Dasam Bani was always in parkash with SGGS Ji back in the day; because it provided a necessary counterpoint and pragmatic balance to the idealistic purity of SGGS Ji? If so, what the heck have we done by removing Dasam Bani from its rightful place?

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1 minute ago, MisterrSingh said:

That we were always a bit ruthless and rough even in the so-called golden days, but the narrative had been airbrushed to make us seem chilled and accommodating, as if every Sikh alive was a potential saint. There was always dodgy people who considered themselves Sikhs, even in the times of the Gurus. I remember reading about a Sikh who came to Dasme Paatshah to complain that his missus had run off with his Muslim neighbour, lol. That's the kind of thing they'll never mention in Gurdwaras. 

Bro, there is a real straight forward explanation for this in my opinion  (and I have tried to research it, so it's not just a hunch):

It was the Singh Sabha lehar that changed Sikh literature in this way. If you look at pre-annexation Sikh literature, they don't have any qualms with writing about stuff that we'd find shocking today. Rattan Singh Bhangu's work is a perfect example. I believe that conservative Christian influence on many of the prominent people of the lehar (through their education in British institutes), as well the famously 'repressed' nature of Victorian society (which ruled us at the time) seeped into their psyches, and they became ashamed of a lot of what our ancestors did - and completely wrote it out of their published (and very popular) histories. That's why you have this weird whitewashed conceptualisation of our ancestors which doesn't remotely reflect the nature of our society today and contradicts so many pre-annexation sources.

 

 

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14 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

In a nutshell: made ourselves docile. 

We've shot ourselves in the foot. Cursed ourselves perhaps.

 

16 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

Bro, there is a real straight forward explanation for this in my opinion  (and I have tried to research it, so it's not just a hunch):

It was the Singh Sabha lehar that changed Sikh literature in this way. If you look at pre-annexation Sikh literature, they don't have any qualms with writing about stuff that we'd find shocking today. Rattan Singh Bhangu's work is a perfect example. I believe that conservative Christian influence on many of the prominent people of the lehar (through their education in British institutes), as well the famously 'repressed' nature of Victorian society (which ruled us at the time) seeped into their psyches, and they became ashamed of a lot of what our ancestors did - and completely wrote it out of their published (and very popular) histories. That's why you have this weird whitewashed conceptualisation of our ancestors which doesn't remotely reflect the nature of our society today and contradicts so many pre-annexation sources.

That makes sense considering all we know and perceive to be our natural proclivities as Punjabis. It's a shame there's been a considerable mythologising of our history, almost as if what occurred was thousands of years ago in an idealised pre-history akin to the events of Indian mythology.

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Guest Jacfsing2
8 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

time to embrace pita ji's bani wholeheartedly , the rise of the kalyugi mind is upon us ...

Honestly I think they hate any form of Rass, (Bir or Naam), would they like the Bir Rass shabads from Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? I don't really expect it. Examples of Bir Rass from Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji: "ਸਲੋਕ ਕਬੀਰ ॥

Salok Kabeer ||

सलोक कबीर ॥

Shalok, Kabeer:

47474 ਪੰ. ੪ 

 

ਗਗਨ ਦਮਾਮਾ ਬਾਜਿਓ ਪਰਿਓ ਨੀਸਾਨੈ ਘਾਉ ॥

Gagan Dhamaamaa Baajiou Pariou Neesaanai Ghaao ||

गगन दमामा बाजिओ परिओ नीसानै घाउ ॥

The battle-drum beats in the sky of the mind; aim is taken, and the wound is inflicted.

47475 ਮਾਰੂ (ਭ. ਕਬੀਰ) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੧੦੫ ਪੰ. ੪ 
Raag Maaroo Bhagat Kabir

ਖੇਤੁ ਜੁ ਮਾਂਡਿਓ ਸੂਰਮਾ ਅਬ ਜੂਝਨ ਕੋ ਦਾਉ ॥੧॥

Khaeth J Maanddiou Sooramaa Ab Joojhan Ko Dhaao ||1||

खेतु जु मांडिओ सूरमा अब जूझन को दाउ ॥१॥

The spiritual warriors enter the field of battle; now is the time to fight! ||1||

47476 ਮਾਰੂ (ਭ. ਕਬੀਰ) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੧੦੫ ਪੰ. ੫ 
Raag Maaroo Bhagat Kabir

ਸੂਰਾ ਸੋ ਪਹਿਚਾਨੀਐ ਜੁ ਲਰੈ ਦੀਨ ਕੇ ਹੇਤ ॥

Sooraa So Pehichaaneeai J Larai Dheen Kae Haeth ||

सूरा सो पहिचानीऐ जु लरै दीन के हेत ॥

He alone is known as a spiritual hero, who fights in defense of religion.

47477 ਮਾਰੂ (ਭ. ਕਬੀਰ) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੧੦੫ ਪੰ. ੫ 
Raag Maaroo Bhagat Kabir

ਪੁਰਜਾ ਪੁਰਜਾ ਕਟਿ ਮਰੈ ਕਬਹੂ ਨ ਛਾਡੈ ਖੇਤੁ ॥੨॥੨॥

Purajaa Purajaa Katt Marai Kabehoo N Shhaaddai Khaeth ||2||2||

पुरजा पुरजा कटि मरै कबहू न छाडै खेतु ॥२॥२॥

He may be cut apart, piece by piece, but he never leaves the field of battle. ||2||2||

47478 ਮਾਰੂ (ਭ. ਕਬੀਰ) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੧੦੫ ਪੰ. ੬ 
Raag Maaroo Bhagat Kabir" (Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Ang 1105) (Forgive the copy pasting mistake; used to copy and paste from Srigranth.org but that's temporarily closed and don't have access to a Gurmukhi keyboard though would appreciate if someone showed me one). There are other shabads in Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji for Bir Rass, don't expect missionaries to read it, so they really are just playing religious politics.

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1 minute ago, Jacfsing2 said:

Honestly I think they hate any form of Rass, (Bir or Naam), would they like the Bir Rass shabads from Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji? I don't really expect it. Examples of Bir Rass from Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji: "ਸਲੋਕ ਕਬੀਰ ॥

Salok Kabeer ||

सलोक कबीर ॥

Shalok, Kabeer:

47474 ਪੰ. ੪ 

 

ਗਗਨ ਦਮਾਮਾ ਬਾਜਿਓ ਪਰਿਓ ਨੀਸਾਨੈ ਘਾਉ ॥

Gagan Dhamaamaa Baajiou Pariou Neesaanai Ghaao ||

गगन दमामा बाजिओ परिओ नीसानै घाउ ॥

The battle-drum beats in the sky of the mind; aim is taken, and the wound is inflicted.

47475 ਮਾਰੂ (ਭ. ਕਬੀਰ) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੧੦੫ ਪੰ. ੪ 
Raag Maaroo Bhagat Kabir

ਖੇਤੁ ਜੁ ਮਾਂਡਿਓ ਸੂਰਮਾ ਅਬ ਜੂਝਨ ਕੋ ਦਾਉ ॥੧॥

Khaeth J Maanddiou Sooramaa Ab Joojhan Ko Dhaao ||1||

खेतु जु मांडिओ सूरमा अब जूझन को दाउ ॥१॥

The spiritual warriors enter the field of battle; now is the time to fight! ||1||

47476 ਮਾਰੂ (ਭ. ਕਬੀਰ) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੧੦੫ ਪੰ. ੫ 
Raag Maaroo Bhagat Kabir

ਸੂਰਾ ਸੋ ਪਹਿਚਾਨੀਐ ਜੁ ਲਰੈ ਦੀਨ ਕੇ ਹੇਤ ॥

Sooraa So Pehichaaneeai J Larai Dheen Kae Haeth ||

सूरा सो पहिचानीऐ जु लरै दीन के हेत ॥

He alone is known as a spiritual hero, who fights in defense of religion.

47477 ਮਾਰੂ (ਭ. ਕਬੀਰ) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੧੦੫ ਪੰ. ੫ 
Raag Maaroo Bhagat Kabir

ਪੁਰਜਾ ਪੁਰਜਾ ਕਟਿ ਮਰੈ ਕਬਹੂ ਨ ਛਾਡੈ ਖੇਤੁ ॥੨॥੨॥

Purajaa Purajaa Katt Marai Kabehoo N Shhaaddai Khaeth ||2||2||

पुरजा पुरजा कटि मरै कबहू न छाडै खेतु ॥२॥२॥

He may be cut apart, piece by piece, but he never leaves the field of battle. ||2||2||

47478 ਮਾਰੂ (ਭ. ਕਬੀਰ) ਗੁਰੂ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਸਾਹਿਬ : ਅੰਗ ੧੧੦੫ ਪੰ. ੬ 
Raag Maaroo Bhagat Kabir" (Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Ang 1105) (Forgive the copy pasting mistake; used to copy and paste from Srigranth.org but that's temporarily closed and don't have access to a Gurmukhi keyboard though would appreciate if someone showed me one). There are other shabads in Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji for Bir Rass, don't expect missionaries to read it, so they really are just playing religious politics.

this is true , Guru Nanak Dev ji wasn't some weak pious sadhu he was determined sure warrior for the truth. If you Read really read Guru ji constantly tells you to get up, and stay up , fight the good fight, face down evil and oppression within and without. Dasam Bani gives specific ways to fight but the start of the fighting spirit is in Guru Granth Sahib ji.

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26 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

We've shot ourselves in the foot. Cursed ourselves perhaps.

 

That makes sense considering all we know and perceive to be our natural proclivities as Punjabis. It's a shame there's been a considerable mythologising of our history, almost as if what occurred was thousands of years ago in an idealised pre-history akin to the events of Indian mythology.

It's even simpler than that. Apnay adopted the white Anglo style of 'historiography' over our own 'warts and all' indigenous style. 

They essentially imitated the way Anglos use 'history' as a form of propaganda as opposed to a record of the truth. Anglo values of the time (repressed, conservative, protestant) were used as barometers of what was good and bad behaviour. 

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28 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

this is true , Guru Nanak Dev ji wasn't some weak pious sadhu he was determined sure warrior for the truth. If you Read really read Guru ji constantly tells you to get up, and stay up , fight the good fight, face down evil and oppression within and without. Dasam Bani gives specific ways to fight but the start of the fighting spirit is in Guru Granth Sahib ji.

This needs to be repeated more often. It'll help the likes of me from not labouring under erroneous illusions. 

We really aren't being helped in any way by our parcharaks, are we? What's their purpose if illiterates such as myself only discover certain truths by complete accident? 

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