A woman's strength

[jkvlondon]

6 hours ago, Mahakaal96 said:

Gatka is played by circus performers & showmen. Real Singhs & Shasterdhari yodeh practice Shaster Vidya & gain mastery over the 5 types of weapons. Real Singhs also study raj neeti & yudh neeti (there's a specific Granth that covers this)

Nihangs also studied riflemanship trying remembering Guru Pita ji's weaponery , also unarmed combat, wrestling  from Guru Arjan Dev ji time . Stop being so snooty ... I'm pretty sure you are still learning just like everyone else but your attitude is very unbrotherlike.

[Mahakaal96]

2 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

Nihangs also studied riflemanship trying remembering Guru Pita ji's weaponery , also unarmed combat, wrestling  from Guru Arjan Dev ji time . Stop being so snooty ... I'm pretty sure you are still learning just like everyone else but your attitude is very unbrotherlike.

In puratan Shaster Vidya Riflemanship falls under the category of yantramukta weapons... these are considered the highest form of weapons & is the highest form of shaster Vidya.

Unarmed combat & wrestling is the 5th & lowest form of Shaster Vidya... it is to be avoided & only used as a last resort but it is still important to learn to be a complete warrior.

Learning these vidyas from a bhagat tappasvi & dharmi gurdev is completely different to learning them from commanders in a robotic adharmic army. 

As old Singhs say... putting weapons in the hand of a soldier is nothing more then creating a killer... but putting weapons & shaster Vidya in the hands of Bhagats & tappasvis is creating & real yodha & dharam purush 

[Akalifauj]

23 hours ago, kalyugi said:

She is not a woman  /s

Based on what observation?

[Kira]

1 hour ago, Akalifauj said:

Based on what observation?

he's being sarcastic I think the "/s" means sarcasm.

 

19 hours ago, Mahakaal96 said:

I personally think mahraj chose not to write about Mata fleeing in Chandi Di Vaar for a few reasons.

You can''t hope to know what Guru Sahib was thinking. He never once lied in any of his banis, He flat out said that Durga and Kali killed Rakatbheej in Chandi Charitar, I've pasted Gurbani but it seems the concept of a woman doing something remarkable seems almost alien to you. Chandi Charitar isn't a bani with the shortened version, Chandi Di Vaar is. Chandi Charitar is a more extensive version of it and it cclearly states Durga killed Ratakbheej alone, and it also explains how she managed it. Not a single mention of any other assistance, so tell me why would Guru Gobind Singh Ji (the master scribe) decide to alter a tale just cuz.

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Chandi Di Vaar is known as shaheeda Di Bani as it is the Bani that Singhs recited the most before going into battle. Singhs who have Chandi Di Vaar memorised can recite it in about 8-10 mins... so the summarised theory has some credibility. 

For chandi Di vaar yes. For Chandi Charitar, no. The Bani extensively depicts the battle, compare the battle of Ratakbheej in Chandi Di Vaar to Chandi Charitar and there's start differences in how much is described. Let me ask, have you ever even read Chandi Charitar? 

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Also, Chandi Di Vaar was composed for the purspose of inciting Bir Ras (warrior spirit) inside the reader.... it's not very warrior spirit inciting if you are reading above someone fleeing the battlefield because of becoming exhausted.

You keep going back to Chandi Di Vaar. I'm discussing Chandi Charitar here. Even if Durga had fled from the battle and sought help from a Rishi (who later turns out to be Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji) that would only showcase the might of Guru Nanak's Jyot in an even more splendid light. What a better way to show the world that even a Devi hailed as a Supreme Warrior needed help from the mighty Khalsa, That would incite anyone's spirit, that God himself gave this woman new rejuvenated Strength to face an unimaginable evil, I'm not sure about you but I'd be pretty inspired, knowing that even if I was failing God would give me new power to quench the evil. These are all your theories, none of them have any evidence in Gurbani.

 

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Sri Suraj Prakash was written as a Granth which gave the Panth our historical framework & timeline.

 Like this

 Considering the time-frame we have to take into account the massive surge in people worshipping Devi during that time. There were even paintings of Maharaja Ranjit Singh worshipping Devi done in 1863. Even during the publication of this Granth Idols were being installed in Harmandir Sahib by the corrupt British and Hindu Mahants who wished to muddle Sikh literature. This story would have been one of many floating around about the links between Devi and the Khalsa. 

[Kira]

While Chandi Di Vaar is an extremely potent Bir Ras Bani it's also a bani to help with another type of war. The internal war that we all face.  Notice how the names of the demons all allude to things Guru Sahib warns us about. For example. Mahikasur (the first demon Durga slays) is also a figurative of sexual desire. His name can be roughly alluded to that, Sumbh (Pride)  and Nisumbh (anger) are both other emotions we're meant to destroy. Now this is where the name of Rakatbheej is also changed to Sronatbheej, The latter translates to gossip or all hearing. However this isn't unique to this bani, they are the same demon since Guru Sahib in Chandi Charitar also changes the name back and forth.

The Gods (representing good people or goodness) at the start of the Ballad are filled with ego, so to destroy that ego God sent these demons (the vices). The Vices humbled the person, destroyed everything they built in heaven and took over. Reduced to nothing they sought the refuge of Durga (think of her a manifestation of power), She then goes off and faces the demons. She destroys them the same way we are to destroy the vices. Then along comes Sronatbheej, He's extremely powerful and also different than the other vices because he multiples. This vice (of gossip) isn't anything we can destroy in ourselves, because like his clones its an external foe. Durga in a fit of rage and anger envisions Kalika (she represents knowledge here), She bursts out of her forehead and starts to face the demons.

In the battle Durga has the forces of the Devtas (good people) as well but she also brings her Yognis (some say these are witches but from what I was taught they are also over 50 goddesses who are handmaidens of Durga, basically her vanguard). They start drinking the blood along with Kali and Durga starts the normal process of destroying the demons with her blades. This is an analogy on how we should be dealing with gossip, rather than letting it grow and mature into something we cant contend, destroy them at their roots. 

The demons flee after Durga and Kalika overwhelm them and then along comes the next sin in the form of Nisumbh (anger).  He gets obliterated and then comes Sumbh (Pride), he also faces his demise at Durga's hands. There's a nice poetic linakage to how the demons die too. 

First to fall is Mahikasur (sexual desire). For humans this is the root of most if not all problems (Kaam in some instances can also mean desires), Maskeen Ji did an amazing Katha on this very topic. After his demise things were calm and collect for a while but 2 more demons rose. Anger and Pride. Anger and Pride go hand in hand, if you hurt someones pride then the chances are they will come for you in a fit of rage, we sadly see it in Punjabi Culture a-lot. Anger and Pride had 4 sub-demons. Dhoomar Lochan, Chand and Mund, Sronatbheej.

Dhoomar Lochan (cloudy vision) is the first to fall. Let's ponder why. To en-better ourselves we need to be able to see clearly, if we see things half way its extremely dangerous. For example, fog is extremely dangerous, remove the fog and vola things are so much better. 

Chand and Mund are the next to come. They represent Greed and Attachment, Both go hand in hand. If we get greedy, we'll naturally get attached to the items we lust after. Now that Dhoomar Lochan is dead and we can see clearly we face the vice of Greed and desires. Durga obliterates them too.

Now comes SronatBheej. ohoho he's the big bad daddy in the whole thing. All the other demons are internal foes, while this bugger is an external and an internal one. See above how he was killed.

Now that we've dealt with sexual desire (important to add that Mahikasur was lusting after Durga as she was incredibly beautiful), Cloudy thought, Greed and attachment. Now comes the biggest sins of anger and pride. I don't need to really tell anyone on here as Guru Granth Sahib Ji tells us just how destructive these vices are. They are the root of almost all evil deeds. Guru Nanak Dev Ji in Sidh Gost even wrote "ਹਉ ਹਉ ਮੈ ਮੈ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਖੋਵੈ ॥ ਦੂਜਾ ਮੇਟੈ ਏਕੋ ਹੋਵੈ ॥ "

So they eventually fall to Durga's power. The end of the bani Guru Gobind Singh Ji writes "ਦੁਰਗਾ ਪਾਠ ਬਣਾਇਆ ਸਭੇ ਪਉੜੀਆਂ ॥ ਫੇਰ ਨ ਜੂਨੀ ਆਇਆ ਜਿਨ ਇਹ ਗਾਇਆ ॥੫੫॥ " 

If we observe the bani in a metaphorical sense AS well as a physical sense that line also shines. Any person who obliterates these vices the same way Durga destroys these demons, no way will they be reborn. As they become immaculate and a form of the Timeless Lord himself.

The bani is also an amazing Journey for new beginners (the writing and understanding is so simple), a guide on how to enbetter ourselves internally as well waging war against Tyrants.

 

[Mahakaal96]

1 hour ago, Kira said:

he's being sarcastic I think the "/s" means sarcasm.

 

You can''t hope to know what Guru Sahib was thinking. He never once lied in any of his banis, He flat out said that Durga and Kali killed Rakatbheej in Chandi Charitar, I've pasted Gurbani but it seems the concept of a woman doing something remarkable seems almost alien to you. Chandi Charitar isn't a bani with the shortened version, Chandi Di Vaar is. Chandi Charitar is a more extensive version of it and it cclearly states Durga killed Ratakbheej alone, and it also explains how she managed it. Not a single mention of any other assistance, so tell me why would Guru Gobind Singh Ji (the master scribe) decide to alter a tale just cuz.

For chandi Di vaar yes. For Chandi Charitar, no. The Bani extensively depicts the battle, compare the battle of Ratakbheej in Chandi Di Vaar to Chandi Charitar and there's start differences in how much is described. Let me ask, have you ever even read Chandi Charitar? 

You keep going back to Chandi Di Vaar. I'm discussing Chandi Charitar here. Even if Durga had fled from the battle and sought help from a Rishi (who later turns out to be Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji) that would only showcase the might of Guru Nanak's Jyot in an even more splendid light. What a better way to show the world that even a Devi hailed as a Supreme Warrior needed help from the mighty Khalsa, That would incite anyone's spirit, that God himself gave this woman new rejuvenated Strength to face an unimaginable evil, I'm not sure about you but I'd be pretty inspired, knowing that even if I was failing God would give me new power to quench the evil. These are all your theories, none of them have any evidence in Gurbani.

 

 Considering the time-frame we have to take into account the massive surge in people worshipping Devi during that time. There were even paintings of Maharaja Ranjit Singh worshipping Devi done in 1863. Even during the publication of this Granth Idols were being installed in Harmandir Sahib by the corrupt British and Hindu Mahants who wished to muddle Sikh literature. This story would have been one of many floating around about the links between Devi and the Khalsa. 

 

56 minutes ago, Kira said:

While Chandi Di Vaar is an extremely potent Bir Ras Bani it's also a bani to help with another type of war. The internal war that we all face.  Notice how the names of the demons all allude to things Guru Sahib warns us about. For example. Mahikasur (the first demon Durga slays) is also a figurative of sexual desire. His name can be roughly alluded to that, Sumbh (Pride)  and Nisumbh (anger) are both other emotions we're meant to destroy. Now this is where the name of Rakatbheej is also changed to Sronatbheej, The latter translates to gossip or all hearing. However this isn't unique to this bani, they are the same demon since Guru Sahib in Chandi Charitar also changes the name back and forth.

The Gods (representing good people or goodness) at the start of the Ballad are filled with ego, so to destroy that ego God sent these demons (the vices). The Vices humbled the person, destroyed everything they built in heaven and took over. Reduced to nothing they sought the refuge of Durga (think of her a manifestation of power), She then goes off and faces the demons. She destroys them the same way we are to destroy the vices. Then along comes Sronatbheej, He's extremely powerful and also different than the other vices because he multiples. This vice (of gossip) isn't anything we can destroy in ourselves, because like his clones its an external foe. Durga in a fit of rage and anger envisions Kalika (she represents knowledge here), She bursts out of her forehead and starts to face the demons.

In the battle Durga has the forces of the Devtas (good people) as well but she also brings her Yognis (some say these are witches but from what I was taught they are also over 50 goddesses who are handmaidens of Durga, basically her vanguard). They start drinking the blood along with Kali and Durga starts the normal process of destroying the demons with her blades. This is an analogy on how we should be dealing with gossip, rather than letting it grow and mature into something we cant contend, destroy them at their roots. 

The demons flee after Durga and Kalika overwhelm them and then along comes the next sin in the form of Nisumbh (anger).  He gets obliterated and then comes Sumbh (Pride), he also faces his demise at Durga's hands. There's a nice poetic linakage to how the demons die too. 

First to fall is Mahikasur (sexual desire). For humans this is the root of most if not all problems (Kaam in some instances can also mean desires), Maskeen Ji did an amazing Katha on this very topic. After his demise things were calm and collect for a while but 2 more demons rose. Anger and Pride. Anger and Pride go hand in hand, if you hurt someones pride then the chances are they will come for you in a fit of rage, we sadly see it in Punjabi Culture a-lot. Anger and Pride had 4 sub-demons. Dhoomar Lochan, Chand and Mund, Sronatbheej.

Dhoomar Lochan (cloudy vision) is the first to fall. Let's ponder why. To en-better ourselves we need to be able to see clearly, if we see things half way its extremely dangerous. For example, fog is extremely dangerous, remove the fog and vola things are so much better. 

Chand and Mund are the next to come. They represent Greed and Attachment, Both go hand in hand. If we get greedy, we'll naturally get attached to the items we lust after. Now that Dhoomar Lochan is dead and we can see clearly we face the vice of Greed and desires. Durga obliterates them too.

Now comes SronatBheej. ohoho he's the big bad daddy in the whole thing. All the other demons are internal foes, while this bugger is an external and an internal one. See above how he was killed.

Now that we've dealt with sexual desire (important to add that Mahikasur was lusting after Durga as she was incredibly beautiful), Cloudy thought, Greed and attachment. Now comes the biggest sins of anger and pride. I don't need to really tell anyone on here as Guru Granth Sahib Ji tells us just how destructive these vices are. They are the root of almost all evil deeds. Guru Nanak Dev Ji in Sidh Gost even wrote "ਹਉ ਹਉ ਮੈ ਮੈ ਵਿਚਹੁ ਖੋਵੈ ॥ ਦੂਜਾ ਮੇਟੈ ਏਕੋ ਹੋਵੈ ॥ "

So they eventually fall to Durga's power. The end of the bani Guru Gobind Singh Ji writes "ਦੁਰਗਾ ਪਾਠ ਬਣਾਇਆ ਸਭੇ ਪਉੜੀਆਂ ॥ ਫੇਰ ਨ ਜੂਨੀ ਆਇਆ ਜਿਨ ਇਹ ਗਾਇਆ ॥੫੫॥ " 

If we observe the bani in a metaphorical sense AS well as a physical sense that line also shines. Any person who obliterates these vices the same way Durga destroys these demons, no way will they be reborn. As they become immaculate and a form of the Timeless Lord himself.

The bani is also an amazing Journey for new beginners (the writing and understanding is so simple), a guide on how to enbetter ourselves internally as well waging war against Tyrants.

 

I am familiar with Chandi Charitar.... it is a more detailed account of the battles mentioned in Chandi Di Vaar. The account in Sri Suraj Prakash is supposedly an extension of this Bani.... at least that's what I've been told & that's how it is taught in sampardas.

Similarly the accounts about Rishi Samund & Rishi Dusht Daman are an extension of Bachiter Natak.

By writing that Mata fled the battlefield to seek assistance from Parmeshvar is not to be regarded as a slight against Mata but rather exhaults the supreme power of parmeshvar..... however.... according to the Khalsa maryada it is forbidden for a warrior to take 1 step back on the battlefield let alone flee the battlefield.... even if it is to pray to parmeshvar. (At Sarsa nadi mahraj recited Sri Asa Di vaar on the battlefield but did not flee... Baba Ajit Singh, Baba Udai Singh & the rest of the fauj carried on fighting but no one left the battlefield) In Sri Sarbloh Granth mahraj praises the demon Brijnath when he refuses to back down from war against parmeshvar himself.... try to think outside of the box here.... there's a reason Sant Jarnail Singh Ji said in katha that the Bani of Sri Dasam Granth would not be understood by cowards.

[Kira]

14 minutes ago, Mahakaal96 said:

 

I am familiar with Chandi Charitar.... it is a more detailed account of the battles mentioned in Chandi Di Vaar. The account in Sri Suraj Prakash is supposedly an extension of this Bani.... at least that's what I've been told & that's how it is taught in sampardas.

and again you have no proof of that. These are your speculations, nothing more. There's far too many variations circling, so unless you have a proper source from Gurbani saying that Durga fled then please put it up. 

Quote

By writing that Mata fled the battlefield to seek assistance from Parmeshvar is not to be regarded as a slight against Mata but rather exhaults the supreme power of parmeshvar..... however.... according to the Khalsa maryada it is forbidden for a warrior to take 1 step back on the battlefield let alone flee the battlefield.... even if it is to pray to parmeshvar. (At Sarsa nadi mahraj recited Sri Asa Di vaar on the battlefield but did not flee... Baba Ajit Singh, Baba Udai Singh & the rest of the fauj carried on fighting but no one left the battlefield) In Sri Sarbloh Granth mahraj praises the demon Brijnath when he refuses to back down from war against parmeshvar himself.... try to think outside of the box here.... there's a reason Sant Jarnail Singh Ji said in katha that the Bani of Sri Dasam Granth would not be understood by cowards.

Bro I am thinking outside of the box, but I am also thinking inside the confines of Gurbani. Your source is a medieval text written during the time Devi Worship was rife within the Sikh Panth. There were Idols of various Hindu Dieties in Harmandhir Sahib at the time. The story could be one of many that were said to simply explain her link to Khalsa. Guru Gobind Singh Ji handpicked what to put in the Dasam Granth. Had the story been that she fled and sought help elsewhere he wouldn't have included it, You're trying to stretch it that Guru Gobind Singh Ji changed it just because there was an aspect in it that seems contradictory, yet everything in Dasam Granth is historical fact. SO once again, had She fled Guru Gobind Singh Ji would have put it down, or better yet. Picked another Purana to translate and explain.

 

So once again. Please provide Gurbani evidence for this, otherwise its nothing more than tell-tales. I could apply your type of logic to just about everything. 

[Mahakaal96]

23 minutes ago, Kira said:

and again you have no proof of that. These are your speculations, nothing more. There's far too many variations circling, so unless you have a proper source from Gurbani saying that Durga fled then please put it up. 

Bro I am thinking outside of the box, but I am also thinking inside the confines of Gurbani. Your source is a medieval text written during the time Devi Worship was rife within the Sikh Panth. There were Idols of various Hindu Dieties in Harmandhir Sahib at the time. The story could be one of many that were said to simply explain her link to Khalsa. Guru Gobind Singh Ji handpicked what to put in the Dasam Granth. Had the story been that she fled and sought help elsewhere he wouldn't have included it, You're trying to stretch it that Guru Gobind Singh Ji changed it just because there was an aspect in it that seems contradictory, yet everything in Dasam Granth is historical fact. SO once again, had She fled Guru Gobind Singh Ji would have put it down, or better yet. Picked another Purana to translate and explain.

 

So once again. Please provide Gurbani evidence for this, otherwise its nothing more than tell-tales. I could apply your type of logic to just about everything. 

If you want to discredit the work of Kavi Santokh Singh & Sri Suraj Prakash then that is your choice.

According to your logic we should remove some of our 5 kakars because there's no evidence from Gurbani...

I'm happy to stick with the sampardai (nihangs, taksal, nirmalas etc) take on the subject.

[Kira]

1 minute ago, Mahakaal96 said:

If you want to discredit the work of Kavi Santokh Singh & Sri Suraj Prakash then that is your choice.

I'm happy to stick with the sampardai (nihangs, taksal, nirmalas etc) take on the subject.

Bro all I did was ask you to provide Gurbani references or even Purana References of Durga fleeing from Rakatbhee, 

Kavi Santokh Singh Ji was a Sikh of the highest calibre and not someone I could even hope to reach. If I offended you or Him in any shape or form I'm deeply sorry.

[Mahakaal96]

20 minutes ago, Kira said:

Bro all I did was ask you to provide Gurbani references or even Purana References of Durga fleeing from Rakatbhee, 

Kavi Santokh Singh Ji was a Sikh of the highest calibre and not someone I could even hope to reach. If I offended you or Him in any shape or form I'm deeply sorry.

There's no need to apologise.. doing veechar is one of the accepted forms of gaining knowledge.

Watch this video, Baba Santa Singh Ji mentions the parsang briefly but the detailed account can be found in rut 3 adayai 35 of Sri Suraj Prakash Granth

I'll say it again that Mata fleeing from the battlefield is not to be considered as a slight against Mata.... anyone who has killed 9 crore of the same demon (plus the others like chund, mund, dhumarnain etc) & they re-manifest themselves would become exhausted.