monatosingh

Meat shop opening right next to Singh Sabha Gurdwara

41 posts in this topic

In Somerset road in Handsworth Wood is Singh Sabha Gurdwara.

Unfortunately, some people are paying the landlord for property to open a meat shop. Now the soon-to-come meat shop is crazily close to the Gurdwara.

The Gurdwara has told the landlord about how this affects the Gurdwara and he understands, but unfortunately he needs money and the people are willing to open the shop there.

What are your views on this?

Edited by monatosingh
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23 minutes ago, monatosingh said:

In Somerset road in Handsworth Wood is Singh Sabha Gurdwara.

Unfortunately, some people are paying the landlord for property to open a meat shop. Now the soon-to-come meat shop is crazily close to the Gurdwara.

The Gurdwara has told the landlord about how this affects the Gurdwara and he understands, but unfortunately he needs money and the people are willing to open the shop there.

What are your views on this?

couldn't sangat hire the shop and use it as a sikh friendly centre e.g. punjabi school, OAP centre, drop in centre  for advice  or even SIkh Business men/women move in to doing a different business . I have noticed there seems to be a trend lately of halal vendors trying to convert shops near to sikh gurdwarey into butchers, shops or restaurants selling halal meat like rubbing our noses in their proximity.

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Not on gurdwara property, he can give the committee members the middle finger all he wants. 

Plus, how does this really even effect the gurdwara? 

Edited by KhoonKaBadlaKhoon
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1 minute ago, jkvlondon said:

couldn't sangat hire the shop and use it as a sikh friendly centre e.g. punjabi school, OAP centre, drop in centre  for advice  or even SIkh Business men/women move in to doing a different business . I have noticed there seems to be a trend lately of halal vendors trying to convert shops near to sikh gurdwarey into butchers, shops or restaurants selling halal meat like rubbing our noses in their proximity.

Yes, the price for the property is £150,000.

 

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5 minutes ago, KhoonKaBadlaKhoon said:

Not on gurdwara property, he can give the committee members the middle finger all he wants. 

Plus, how does this really even effect the gurdwara? 

How does it not effect the Gurdwara?

Imagine walking to a Gurdwara and all you can smell is meat.

Imagine if that smell gets stronger and you can smell it all the way from the langar hall. That won't be very pleasant would it?

Edited by monatosingh
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Where are UK Sikh organisations & Jathebandi's when you need them !

They should come together, pool resources & by the property.

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There was a similar case of a halal meat factory was going to be opened near a UK gurdwara and eventually legal action was taken and they couldn't open it near the premises.

Same thing needs to happen here, not because Sikhs cant eat meat because they can. However the hygiene and bad smell from meat shops does effect the environment. A gurdwara should be a welcoming place for vegetarians and non vegetarians. If rotting meat smells is near the Gurdwara hardly anyone is likely to come to pray, so they can file a case against such a shop being opened next to them.

Further more I have also noticed pakistani muslim shops mostly restaurants opening right next to UK gurdwara sahib's. Maybe its a direct policy by zealous muslims to try and undermine non-muslim places of worship or maybe there's nothing sinister about the motives however knowing islam's history with non-muslim communities i chose to believe its often to undermine the other communities.

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1 hour ago, genie said:

There was a similar case of a halal meat factory was going to be opened near a UK gurdwara and eventually legal action was taken and they couldn't open it near the premises.

Same thing needs to happen here, not because Sikhs cant eat meat because they can. However the hygiene and bad smell from meat shops does effect the environment. A gurdwara should be a welcoming place for vegetarians and non vegetarians. If rotting meat smells is near the Gurdwara hardly anyone is likely to come to pray, so they can file a case against such a shop being opened next to them.

I think you mean Bradford. However, legal action is never a gimmie. It is, moreover, costly.

If the halal meat seller does buy the property, there would need to be a planning application to the local council for change of use because the shop is currently a beauty salon. As a neighbour, the Gurdwara would have the right to oppose any application, therefore, the first recourse would be to the local council.

However, the anticipated success or failure of this approach depends very much on council policy.

I am no expert on this specific area. What I do know is that pak muslims have majority influence in Birmingham just through sheer volume of presence through population. Given many of the councillors, and even the MPs, are muslim, I fear that a challenge to a planning application would simply be brushed aside.

 

1 hour ago, genie said:

Further more I have also noticed pakistani muslim shops mostly restaurants opening right next to UK gurdwara sahib's. Maybe its a direct policy by zealous muslims to try and undermine non-muslim places of worship or maybe there's nothing sinister about the motives however knowing islam's history with non-muslim communities i chose to believe its often to undermine the other communities.

Let's not be coy about this. It will be the latter.

Edited by jashb

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*URGENT* Property Sale or Rent:

URGENT REQUEST TO ALL

There is potential of a halal meat shop opening in close proximity of Singh Sabha Gurdwara Sahib Somerset Road Handsworth Wood. The landlord has been made aware of the offence meat sale at the premises will cause to the Sikh Community which indeed will result in an outright objection by Sikhs across UK who fundamentally condemn this. While he understands this as an issue, he as a businessman has indicated the loss he is making with a vacant property. It is a MIXED USE commercial property with self-contained accommodation above. The property already has a constant rental income for the accommodation.

There are 2 urgent options proposed to the Sikh Community:

Purchase of the property (Currently on market for £149,995, offers are invited)

Letting the property on a long-term lease

As the Gurdwara are not currently in a position to undertake either of the above options, *we* *are calling upon anyone that may be interested in pursuing the request* Specifications of the property with both options can be made available upon request. The property is located on Somerset Road, Handsworth Wood, Birmingham, B20 2JG.

For further information or to express an interest please contact Mandeep Singh, Committee Member of Singh Sabha Gurdwara, Handsworth Wood on 07584374686 or email any inquiries to singhsabhagurdw
ara@live.com.

We urge all members of the sangat to spread this advertisement as much as possible.

Thank you- Singh Sabha Gurdwara, Somerset Road.

Edited by jashb

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9 hours ago, jashb said:

*URGENT* Property Sale or Rent:

URGENT REQUEST TO ALL

There is potential of a halal meat shop opening in close proximity of Singh Sabha Gurdwara Sahib Somerset Road Handsworth Wood. The landlord has been made aware of the offence meat sale at the premises will cause to the Sikh Community which indeed will result in an outright objection by Sikhs across UK who fundamentally condemn this. While he understands this as an issue, he as a businessman has indicated the loss he is making with a vacant property. It is a MIXED USE commercial property with self-contained accommodation above. The property already has a constant rental income for the accommodation.

There are 2 urgent options proposed to the Sikh Community:

Purchase of the property (Currently on market for £149,995, offers are invited)

Letting the property on a long-term lease

As the Gurdwara are not currently in a position to undertake either of the above options, *we* *are calling upon anyone that may be interested in pursuing the request* Specifications of the property with both options can be made available upon request. The property is located on Somerset Road, Handsworth Wood, Birmingham, B20 2JG.

For further information or to express an interest please contact Mandeep Singh, Committee Member of Singh Sabha Gurdwara, Handsworth Wood on 07584374686 or email any inquiries to singhsabhagurdw
ara@live.com.

We urge all members of the sangat to spread this advertisement as much as possible.

Thank you- Singh Sabha Gurdwara, Somerset Road.

Yes, that's the one.

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Never eaten meat, never will, but if Sikhs are apparently permitted to eat meat, then why would they object to a meat shop near a Gurdwara? Be prepared to answer these questions and others if this becomes a bigger problem. Flimsy reasons citing feelings, smell, and whatnot will not wash. Perhaps as situations like these increase with an ever-burgeoning Islamic population flexing it's muscles in places like the UK, confident in the knowledge that its Muslim representatives in local government will smooth over any opposition to their plans, this is a prime example of why picking and choosing what we believe and follow will lead to trouble for us. Things will only get further complicated. Buckle up.

Edited by MisterrSingh
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My local Gurdwara has a meat shop and a fair few Chicken takeaways near it, no ones ever had an issue with it, there's no real smell from the meat shop (punjabi owned by the way, not muslim or halal) because they are governed by some pretty tight health and safety regulations, there's more of a smell from the fried chicken from the takeaways, point is, the Gurdwara committee knew shops like these could open because they are situated in a commercial area.

I would suggest talking to landlord instead of making him aware that it may hurt sentiments (no idea if this has happened though), a few streets from there is Mr Singh's, a fully vegetarian restaurant where a lot of Amritdhari families go, and bang smack opposite is a meat shop, every time i go to Mr Singh's i never smell any meat from the shop opposite.

1 hour ago, MisterrSingh said:

Never eaten meat, never will, but if Sikhs are apparently permitted to eat meat, then why would they object to a meat shop near a Gurdwara? Be prepared to answer these questions and others if this becomes a bigger problem. Flimsy reasons citing feelings, smell, and whatnot will not wash. Perhaps as situations like these increase with an ever-burgeoning Islamic population flexing it's muscles in places like the UK, confident in the knowledge that its Muslim representatives in local government will smooth over any opposition to their plans, this is a prime example of why picking and choose what we choose to believe and follow will lead to trouble. Things will only get further complicated. Buckle up.

This hit's the nail on the head, in my opinion.

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Sometimes I feel these Gurdwara Committees have too much free time on their hands, sure they'll stop a Halal market from being open, but exactly how will they stop the Afghan Sikhs from making their own Halal meat shops?

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6 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

Never eaten meat, never will, but if Sikhs are apparently permitted to eat meat, then why would they object to a meat shop near a Gurdwara? Be prepared to answer these questions and others if this becomes a bigger problem. Flimsy reasons citing feelings, smell, and whatnot will not wash. Perhaps as situations like these increase with an ever-burgeoning Islamic population flexing it's muscles in places like the UK, confident in the knowledge that its Muslim representatives in local government will smooth over any opposition to their plans, this is a prime example of why picking and choosing what we believe and follow will lead to trouble for us. Things will only get further complicated. Buckle up.

This has got nothing to do with meat in general. Let's not try to pretend otherwise.

In the case of halal meat Sikhi is unequivocal that we are banned from going anywhere near meat prepared in an islamic, sacrificial, manner.

It is as much an affront to our religious beliefs as pork is to a muslim. Would muslims accept a pork factory in the vicinity of a mosque?

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5 hours ago, kcmidlands said:

My local Gurdwara has a meat shop and a fair few Chicken takeaways near it, no ones ever had an issue with it

This is clearly enough of an issue that the Gurdwara has issued a public appeal over it.

As I said, I am outside of this specific area, but from your handle I guess you might know better. You could perhaps kindly enlighten us on what the situation is there between muslims and kaffirs these days.

From what I have learnt from elders there that fought muslim paedophiles going back decades, there are rife problems with islamics in Birmingham.

Let's be quite frank about this.
For a halal meat shop that wants to open right next to a Gurdwara, it's never merely about business.

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37 minutes ago, jashb said:

This has got nothing to do with meat in general. Let's not try to pretend otherwise.

In the case of halal meat Sikhi is unequivocal that we are banned from going anywhere near meat prepared in an islamic, sacrificial, manner.

It is as much an affront to our religious beliefs as pork is to a muslim. Would muslims accept a pork factory in the vicinity of a mosque?

I doubt we'll be afforded the same benefit of the doubt as Jews are in this particular instance. Although i believe this situation might be resolved in our favour, it won't happen without a few figurative body blows to Sikh beliefs being highlighted in the mainstream.

Leading on to my second point: be prepared to explain the intricacies of maryada in relation to this issue, because it's obvious any Muslim opposition - and their supporters in the media - to this issue will be framed around Sikh Islamophobia.

So basically we'll be seeing another example of Sikhs and their beliefs being thrown under the bus of popular opinion because of... well, you know, a self-inflicted problem that was entirely preventable, in this case an inability to put a leash on tastebuds.

Edited by MisterrSingh

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2 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

I doubt we'll be afforded the same benefit of the doubt as Jews are in this particular instance. Although i believe this situation might be resolved in our favour, it won't happen without a few figurative body blows to Sikh beliefs being highlighted in the mainstream.

I hear you.

The Jews are an interesting case in point. They have mostly avoided conflict with muslims in the UK up to now simply by residing beyond their reach. In the case of Sikhs, on the other hand, pakistani muslims in particular follow us around like a bloody tramp. I witnessed first hand how Ilford South transformed from a genuinely decent place to grow up, into a filthy muslim ghetto over the last 15 years, with all the antisocial problems that a large and concentrated population of muslims living alongside doe eyed kaffirs naturally brings.

Rising property prices in the east end, however, have put paid to erstwhile Jewish complacency. Now previously in poverty muslims can simply sell their right-to-buy council flats to eager hipsters and buy a nice big 5 bedder out in Redbridge.

You should just see how this is playing itself out in formerly Jewish majority areas like Gants Hill, Clayhall and Barkingside.

Edited by jashb
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46 minutes ago, jashb said:

This is clearly enough of an issue that the Gurdwara has issued a public appeal over it.

As I said, I am outside of this specific area, but from your handle I guess you might know better. You could perhaps kindly enlighten us on what the situation is there between muslims and kaffirs these days.

From what I have learnt from elders there that fought muslim paedophiles going back decades, there are rife problems with islamics in Birmingham.

Let's be quite frank about this.
For a halal meat shop that wants to open right next to a Gurdwara, it's never merely about business.

Ok, i'll bite, i grew up in Birmingham (although i don't live there at the moment) and know the area well, Handsworth used to be primarily Punjabi (because they weren't all Sikh), to my knowledge the area of Handsworth this is situated in is now a little more multi-cultural (take that how you will). I had pleanty of disagreements with Muslims back in the 80's but we all grew up, we gave respect and got it back, i've not heard of just Muslim paedophiles from back in the day, there were plenty from other communities as well including Punjabi. As far as Islamics in Birmingham, that's an issue we have all over the UK.

As you've already alluded to, this has nothing to do with the possibility of a meat shop opening, it's because it may be a muslim run halal meat shop, would it be okay if it was a kosher meat shop or "Bob the Butcher's", if your going to complain you need to have a flat standard, have a problem with any type of meat shop not just halal because i don't care what anyone say's, i was bought up to believe eating meat goes against Sikhi.

 

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I think the Gurdwara Committee should hire PR agency to publicise their appeal.

Pay some Sikh tv channel, run an advert for a Funding Campaign.

What are Sikh Youth Birmingham & Basics of Sikhi doing about it ?

 

Edited by singhbj singh

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8 hours ago, singhbj singh said:

 

Cash rich gurdwarae if they had any brains would buy up this shop.

That would prevent any meat shop opening there, job done.

Slough Singh Sabha owns a row of houses which they use to house Granthi, can't say why this gurdwara cannot do the same.

Edited by Ranjeet01
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2 hours ago, kcmidlands said:

Ok, i'll bite, i grew up in Birmingham (although i don't live there at the moment) and know the area well, Handsworth used to be primarily Punjabi (because they weren't all Sikh), to my knowledge the area of Handsworth this is situated in is now a little more multi-cultural (take that how you will). I had pleanty of disagreements with Muslims back in the 80's but we all grew up, we gave respect and got it back, i've not heard of just Muslim paedophiles from back in the day, there were plenty from other communities as well including Punjabi. As far as Islamics in Birmingham, that's an issue we have all over the UK.

I don't know about that. Paedo gangs in East London have been exclusively the preserve of muslims (mostly mirpuris).

Panjabis tend to be moderate, regardless of religion, though you do still get the odd anjem slipping through. My best friends in secondary school were Panjabi muslims and I never had a problem with a single one of them on account of my faith. Let's bear in mind that this was at a time when people had serious beef with pakistani muslims, not least other muslims, and SP was in full swing out here exacting bloody justice.

Many Panjabi muslims have respect for us as a religion and a people because they have had a long time to learn and recognise what Sikhs are about and stand for. That should be the case for all muslims, but sadly respect for other religions does not fit with islam.

We actually proved our tolerance during the 100 odd years when we ruled Greater Panjab. This was a time when we could have repaid Panjabi muslims for the first two Sikh holocausts in the same coin if we wanted to. However, we operated at a far higher standard. That is fact and you can take the word of revered muslim historians, rather than my own, for that. Tolerance in the form that we demonstrated is impossible and unheard of in islam.

The point however remains, and everyone admits this, no matter whether it's a white englishman, black jamaican, or brown hindu.

Muslims in general would never seek out, groom and sexually abuse their own children the way they do, with ingrained and remarkable normality, to everyone else's children.

 

2 hours ago, kcmidlands said:

As you've already alluded to, this has nothing to do with the possibility of a meat shop opening, it's because it may be a muslim run halal meat shop, would it be okay if it was a kosher meat shop or "Bob the Butcher's"

There should be no issue with a "Bob the Butcher's" as you put it, though in your defence given how many Sikhs are vegetarian, I can see how that would cause problems.

A kosher outlet should get the same reception as halal because the meat is still prepared in the sacrificial fashion, exactly the same as the islamic one.

Whatever one's personal practice and belief, vegetarians should not try to impose their beliefs on the halal meat problem. I called for this not to be turned into a meat debate in general.

Some people may be unintentionally ignorant of Guru Ji's injunction specifically against halal meat itself, which is acceptable y the extent that ignorance can be corrected.

However, if one is deliberately trying to obfuscate, twist and confuse the halal meat issue into one of meat in general, that is not cool.

Sikhi says that meat eating is neither banned nor promoted. This is a matter of an individual's necessity and choice. Nihang Singhs have a long and time honoured tradition of Jhatka that dates all the way back to Guru Ji. You can't really believe fairy stories that Singhs survived in the Lakhi jungle just by eating leaves.

Halal meat on the other hand is specifically banned in Sikhi.

And before anyone jumps in to say otherwise, that is not just by a (respected) rehatnama.

Halal meat is banned by the holy hukam of Guru Ji themselves.

 

2 hours ago, kcmidlands said:

if your going to complain you need to have a flat standard, have a problem with any type of meat shop not just halal

I have dealt above with the distinction between halal and non-halal meat in Sikhi.

There is a long and established precedent for the necessity of sensitivity to religious belief in the United Kingdom.

If a halal meat shop has to be opened, it doesn't have to be right next to a Gurdwara.

 

2 hours ago, kcmidlands said:

i don't care what anyone say's, i was bought up to believe eating meat goes against Sikhi.

That's the precise problem in this respect.

We need to look to Guru Ji's hukams for guidance.

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I got another idea, if the gurdwarae are too tight with their money. Why can't the sangat crowd fund and we can purchase it ourselves.

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21 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

Cash rich gurdwarae if they had any brains would buy up this shop.

That would prevent any meat shop opening there, job done.

Slough Singh Sabha owns a row of houses which they use to house Granthi, can't say why this gurdwara cannot do the same.

This is what baffles me.

I tried to find Singh Sabha Gurdwara, Somerset Road on the charity commission website to check its last filed accounts.

But in all its years of being open, it appears it has never been charity registered. Why is that? That is shocking if it is the case.

The Facebook statement that "the Gurdwara are not currently in a position to undertake either of the above options" makes no sense at all.

The property is, subject to due diligence, potentially an investment. It already has rent from the flat above, together with the potential of income from leasing out the shop below, which could alternatively be put to community use.

I would like to know the achievable total rent for the property to work out expected yield. At least 10% should be demanded, as I understand this place is on the outskirts of Birmingham rather than the city. However, if that appears viable, it should be bought.

I may of course be misreading the entire situation as I do not have local knowledge. If the area is non-commercial, that would have a significant bearing on demand from occupiers and therefore rents.

Even if it doesn't make commercial sense, the asking price could always be negotiated, but I see no reason why a potential purchase should be turned down flat.

We all know the reserves the bigger Gurdwaras are sitting on.

Surely the Council of Gurdwaras in Birmingham should be taking notice?

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