Caste in Sikh Minds

[Guest Jacfsing2]

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh! Can anyone explain logically why caste still exists in our Panth? Especially among those who tell everyone caste doesn't exist to the outside, but when it comes for actually putting it into practice they forget everything about the right side. There are Hindus today who value their personal caste less than some Sikhs which is just depressing if you asked anyone. Also how can we logically combat this idea in some old-aged Pakhandis minds. Especially among Pakhandidharis, (those who took Amrit yet still keep Non-Sikh practices), which makes people question the need for Amrit. Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

[jkvlondon]

5 minutes ago, Jacfsing2 said:

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh! Can anyone explain logically why caste still exists in our Panth? Especially among those who tell everyone caste doesn't exist to the outside, but when it comes for actually putting it into practice they forget everything about the right side. There are Hindus today who value their personal caste less than some Sikhs which is just depressing if you asked anyone. Also how can we logically combat this idea in some old-aged Pakhandis minds. Especially among Pakhandidharis, (those who took Amrit yet still keep Non-Sikh practices), which makes people question the need for Amrit. Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

never question the need for Amrit  just the total besharam lack of spine in the individuals... 

[Guest Jacfsing2]

6 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

never question the need for Amrit  just the total besharam lack of spine in the individuals... 

I didn't question it, but when people say Amritdharis are like that doing bad stuff, I'm usually confused, cause I've never done most of the things they mention, (not perfect, but am trying to do my best). Also thr question was on caste not Amrit. (I've already Chacked Amrit, with love for Guru Sahib and no intended exterior gain from the world).

[Kira]

There's a really nice katha by Maskeen Ji on the topic of where the caste system came from and why it exists. He points out that it was never suppose to be rigid and just help society function, in essence the concept of Caste (at the time) was a more flexible hierarchy and that the concept of Caste (i.e "Sikh Jatt") etc is all nonsense. The Katha is worth a listen as it helps shed some light on some of the mentions in Gurbani too. The only people who hang onto it in any form are Hindus or people who at the back of their mind cant let go of backwards anti-Gurmat traditions. I'll have a look around and see if I can find the Katha.   

[Guest Jacfsing2]

12 hours ago, Kira said:

There's a really nice katha by Maskeen Ji on the topic of where the caste system came from and why it exists. He points out that it was never suppose to be rigid and just help society function, in essence the concept of Caste (at the time) was a more flexible hierarchy and that the concept of Caste (i.e "Sikh Jatt") etc is all nonsense. The Katha is worth a listen as it helps shed some light on some of the mentions in Gurbani too. The only people who hang onto it in any form are Hindus or people who at the back of their mind cant let go of backwards anti-Gurmat traditions. I'll have a look around and see if I can find the Katha.   

Why's it the, "low castes",(Sikh versions of these castes: Jaats, Chamars, Dalits, and Ramgharias),  who are more obsessed with caste than the "high castes", (Sikh versions of these castes: Brahmins and Khatris). Disclaimer: there is no Sikh version of caste; however, in the minds of some of these people they still exist. I've never heard of a Brahmin/Khatri Gurdwara, yet have heard of Dalits and Ramgharia and Ramdassia, (Chamars that are Sikhs and not Ravidassia), why don't they want to integrate with the rest of the Panth is the question especially if the "high caste" Sikhs can do it? The entire Ravidassia religion split because they didn't like talking with other castes, and couldn't accept what in their limited knowledge was a Khatri to be their Guru, (Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji, despite having the ancestory and earthly genetics to come on Earth from a Khatri was instead Vaheguru on Earth, greater to even the highest caste). So they eventually made their Guru completely based on caste, (Bhagat Ravidas, who himself accepted Gurmat).

[Kira]

4 hours ago, Jacfsing2 said:

Why's it the, "low castes",(Sikh versions of these castes: Jaats, Chamars, Dalits, and Ramgharias),  who are more obsessed with caste than the "high castes", (Sikh versions of these castes: Brahmins and Khatris). Disclaimer: there is no Sikh version of caste; however, in the minds of some of these people they still exist. I've never heard of a Brahmin/Khatri Gurdwara, yet have heard of Dalits and Ramgharia and Ramdassia, (Chamars that are Sikhs and not Ravidassia), why don't they want to integrate with the rest of the Panth is the question especially if the "high caste" Sikhs can do it? The entire Ravidassia religion split because they didn't like talking with other castes, and couldn't accept what in their limited knowledge was a Khatri to be their Guru, (Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji, despite having the ancestory and earthly genetics to come on Earth from a Khatri was instead Vaheguru on Earth, greater to even the highest caste). So they eventually made their Guru completely based on caste, (Bhagat Ravidas, who himself accepted Gurmat).

Because people became arrogant over it. The whole concept was alot like the human body, arms,heads, shoulders etc. People could casually swap around "castes" as it was nothing more than an occupation, but over time (like all things) it got corrupted and more rigid. That's where the whole high Caste/low caste thing comes from. Guru Nanak Dev Ji in his infinite wisdom, decided to just do away with it. Problem is people still don't know the origins of it and thus decide to continue holding on. Caste is completely false anyways.

[MisterrSingh]

2 minutes ago, Kira said:

Because people became arrogant over it. The whole concept was alot like the human body, arms,heads, shoulders etc. People could casually swap around "castes" as it was nothing more than an occupation, but over time (like all things) it got corrupted and more rigid. That's where the whole high Caste/low caste thing comes from. Guru Nanak Dev Ji in his infinite wisdom, decided to just do away with it. Problem is people still don't know the origins of it and thus decide to continue holding on. Caste is completely false anyways.

I see where you're coming from. So it was originally, theoretically, almost a system based on a complete living organism, and in order for that organism to successfully exist and operate, its constituent parts need to function in harmony? One damaged part, and the whole thing would either function inefficiently, of cease to function at all? Is that what you meant?

[Kira]

6 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

I see where you're coming from. So it was originally, theoretically, almost a system based on a complete living organism, and in order for that organism to successfully exist and operate, its constituent parts need to function in harmony? One damaged part, and the whole thing would either function inefficiently, of cease to function at all? Is that what you meant?

Yes and No. A-lot like how our society functions with the heads (the people with jobs which require alot of thought and mental strain), the hands (the military to defend us), the stomach (the traders, shops, economy)  and the feet (the manual labour, grunt work classes). Basically that's all the Caste system was, a more elaborate way in how we live our everyday lives except with labels. People could hop around and change their occupation because in the start it wasn't a big deal. But if any faction ceased to function their society would grind to a halt (just like we would).

 

The Problems started when one faction got too vain, they wanted exclusivity and thus as a result the rigid Caste System we see today came into being. Then along came Guru Sahib and just broke the whole thing, he said it was a futile and pointless system. The West doesn't have a caste system, and in terms of productivity its miles ahead of the likes of India due to that. Our Guru Sahibs saw why it was such a flawed system and told us not to associate with it. If you look at things from a genetic level, these labels don't exist. Guru Sahib saw this and explained to us not to associate with it, hence why in terms of Gurbani when they are used, you can understand what the context is. THe true Khatri is a warrior who does righteous deeds, not the caste. A true Brahmin is one who understands God, not the caste and so on. 

[MisterrSingh]

7 minutes ago, Kira said:

Yes and No. A-lot like how our society functions with the heads (the people with jobs which require alot of thought and mental strain), the hands (the military to defend us), the stomach (the traders, shops, economy)  and the feet (the manual labour, grunt work classes). Basically that's all the Caste system was, a more elaborate way in how we live our everyday lives except with labels. People could hop around and change their occupation because in the start it wasn't a big deal. But if any faction ceased to function their society would grind to a halt (just like we would).

The Problems started when one faction got too vain, they wanted exclusivity and thus as a result the rigid Caste System we see today came into being. Then along came Guru Sahib and just broke the whole thing, he said it was a futile and pointless system. The West doesn't have a caste system, and in terms of productivity its miles ahead of the likes of India due to that. Our Guru Sahibs saw why it was such a flawed system and told us not to associate with it. If you look at things from a genetic level, these labels don't exist. Guru Sahib saw this and explained to us not to associate with it, hence why in terms of Gurbani when they are used, you can understand what the context is. THe true Khatri is a warrior who does righteous deeds, not the caste. A true Brahmin is one who understands God, not the caste and so on. 

Wow, conceptually that's way too subtle and nuanced for Indian society, lol. No wonder it all went to pot. 

[Kira]

14 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

Wow, conceptually that's way too subtle and nuanced for Indian society, lol. No wonder it all went to pot. 

The dudes who started it had the right idea at heart, a very nice functioning society but sadly they underestimated the stupidity of the human race as a whole.