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Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh! Can anyone explain logically why caste still exists in our Panth? Especially among those who tell everyone caste doesn't exist to the outside, but when it comes for actually putting it into practice they forget everything about the right side. There are Hindus today who value their personal caste less than some Sikhs which is just depressing if you asked anyone. Also how can we logically combat this idea in some old-aged Pakhandis minds. Especially among Pakhandidharis, (those who took Amrit yet still keep Non-Sikh practices), which makes people question the need for Amrit. Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

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5 minutes ago, Jacfsing2 said:

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh! Can anyone explain logically why caste still exists in our Panth? Especially among those who tell everyone caste doesn't exist to the outside, but when it comes for actually putting it into practice they forget everything about the right side. There are Hindus today who value their personal caste less than some Sikhs which is just depressing if you asked anyone. Also how can we logically combat this idea in some old-aged Pakhandis minds. Especially among Pakhandidharis, (those who took Amrit yet still keep Non-Sikh practices), which makes people question the need for Amrit. Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

never question the need for Amrit  just the total besharam lack of spine in the individuals... 

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6 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

never question the need for Amrit  just the total besharam lack of spine in the individuals... 

I didn't question it, but when people say Amritdharis are like that doing bad stuff, I'm usually confused, cause I've never done most of the things they mention, (not perfect, but am trying to do my best). Also thr question was on caste not Amrit. (I've already Chacked Amrit, with love for Guru Sahib and no intended exterior gain from the world).

Edited by Jacfsing2

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There's a really nice katha by Maskeen Ji on the topic of where the caste system came from and why it exists. He points out that it was never suppose to be rigid and just help society function, in essence the concept of Caste (at the time) was a more flexible hierarchy and that the concept of Caste (i.e "Sikh Jatt") etc is all nonsense. The Katha is worth a listen as it helps shed some light on some of the mentions in Gurbani too. The only people who hang onto it in any form are Hindus or people who at the back of their mind cant let go of backwards anti-Gurmat traditions. I'll have a look around and see if I can find the Katha.   

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12 hours ago, Kira said:

There's a really nice katha by Maskeen Ji on the topic of where the caste system came from and why it exists. He points out that it was never suppose to be rigid and just help society function, in essence the concept of Caste (at the time) was a more flexible hierarchy and that the concept of Caste (i.e "Sikh Jatt") etc is all nonsense. The Katha is worth a listen as it helps shed some light on some of the mentions in Gurbani too. The only people who hang onto it in any form are Hindus or people who at the back of their mind cant let go of backwards anti-Gurmat traditions. I'll have a look around and see if I can find the Katha.   

Why's it the, "low castes",(Sikh versions of these castes: Jaats, Chamars, Dalits, and Ramgharias),  who are more obsessed with caste than the "high castes", (Sikh versions of these castes: Brahmins and Khatris). Disclaimer: there is no Sikh version of caste; however, in the minds of some of these people they still exist. I've never heard of a Brahmin/Khatri Gurdwara, yet have heard of Dalits and Ramgharia and Ramdassia, (Chamars that are Sikhs and not Ravidassia), why don't they want to integrate with the rest of the Panth is the question especially if the "high caste" Sikhs can do it? The entire Ravidassia religion split because they didn't like talking with other castes, and couldn't accept what in their limited knowledge was a Khatri to be their Guru, (Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji, despite having the ancestory and earthly genetics to come on Earth from a Khatri was instead Vaheguru on Earth, greater to even the highest caste). So they eventually made their Guru completely based on caste, (Bhagat Ravidas, who himself accepted Gurmat).

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4 hours ago, Jacfsing2 said:

Why's it the, "low castes",(Sikh versions of these castes: Jaats, Chamars, Dalits, and Ramgharias),  who are more obsessed with caste than the "high castes", (Sikh versions of these castes: Brahmins and Khatris). Disclaimer: there is no Sikh version of caste; however, in the minds of some of these people they still exist. I've never heard of a Brahmin/Khatri Gurdwara, yet have heard of Dalits and Ramgharia and Ramdassia, (Chamars that are Sikhs and not Ravidassia), why don't they want to integrate with the rest of the Panth is the question especially if the "high caste" Sikhs can do it? The entire Ravidassia religion split because they didn't like talking with other castes, and couldn't accept what in their limited knowledge was a Khatri to be their Guru, (Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji, despite having the ancestory and earthly genetics to come on Earth from a Khatri was instead Vaheguru on Earth, greater to even the highest caste). So they eventually made their Guru completely based on caste, (Bhagat Ravidas, who himself accepted Gurmat).

Because people became arrogant over it. The whole concept was alot like the human body, arms,heads, shoulders etc. People could casually swap around "castes" as it was nothing more than an occupation, but over time (like all things) it got corrupted and more rigid. That's where the whole high Caste/low caste thing comes from. Guru Nanak Dev Ji in his infinite wisdom, decided to just do away with it. Problem is people still don't know the origins of it and thus decide to continue holding on. Caste is completely false anyways.

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2 minutes ago, Kira said:

Because people became arrogant over it. The whole concept was alot like the human body, arms,heads, shoulders etc. People could casually swap around "castes" as it was nothing more than an occupation, but over time (like all things) it got corrupted and more rigid. That's where the whole high Caste/low caste thing comes from. Guru Nanak Dev Ji in his infinite wisdom, decided to just do away with it. Problem is people still don't know the origins of it and thus decide to continue holding on. Caste is completely false anyways.

I see where you're coming from. So it was originally, theoretically, almost a system based on a complete living organism, and in order for that organism to successfully exist and operate, its constituent parts need to function in harmony? One damaged part, and the whole thing would either function inefficiently, of cease to function at all? Is that what you meant?

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6 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

I see where you're coming from. So it was originally, theoretically, almost a system based on a complete living organism, and in order for that organism to successfully exist and operate, its constituent parts need to function in harmony? One damaged part, and the whole thing would either function inefficiently, of cease to function at all? Is that what you meant?

Yes and No. A-lot like how our society functions with the heads (the people with jobs which require alot of thought and mental strain), the hands (the military to defend us), the stomach (the traders, shops, economy)  and the feet (the manual labour, grunt work classes). Basically that's all the Caste system was, a more elaborate way in how we live our everyday lives except with labels. People could hop around and change their occupation because in the start it wasn't a big deal. But if any faction ceased to function their society would grind to a halt (just like we would).

 

The Problems started when one faction got too vain, they wanted exclusivity and thus as a result the rigid Caste System we see today came into being. Then along came Guru Sahib and just broke the whole thing, he said it was a futile and pointless system. The West doesn't have a caste system, and in terms of productivity its miles ahead of the likes of India due to that. Our Guru Sahibs saw why it was such a flawed system and told us not to associate with it. If you look at things from a genetic level, these labels don't exist. Guru Sahib saw this and explained to us not to associate with it, hence why in terms of Gurbani when they are used, you can understand what the context is. THe true Khatri is a warrior who does righteous deeds, not the caste. A true Brahmin is one who understands God, not the caste and so on. 

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7 minutes ago, Kira said:

Yes and No. A-lot like how our society functions with the heads (the people with jobs which require alot of thought and mental strain), the hands (the military to defend us), the stomach (the traders, shops, economy)  and the feet (the manual labour, grunt work classes). Basically that's all the Caste system was, a more elaborate way in how we live our everyday lives except with labels. People could hop around and change their occupation because in the start it wasn't a big deal. But if any faction ceased to function their society would grind to a halt (just like we would).

The Problems started when one faction got too vain, they wanted exclusivity and thus as a result the rigid Caste System we see today came into being. Then along came Guru Sahib and just broke the whole thing, he said it was a futile and pointless system. The West doesn't have a caste system, and in terms of productivity its miles ahead of the likes of India due to that. Our Guru Sahibs saw why it was such a flawed system and told us not to associate with it. If you look at things from a genetic level, these labels don't exist. Guru Sahib saw this and explained to us not to associate with it, hence why in terms of Gurbani when they are used, you can understand what the context is. THe true Khatri is a warrior who does righteous deeds, not the caste. A true Brahmin is one who understands God, not the caste and so on. 

Wow, conceptually that's way too subtle and nuanced for Indian society, lol. No wonder it all went to pot. 

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14 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

Wow, conceptually that's way too subtle and nuanced for Indian society, lol. No wonder it all went to pot. 

The dudes who started it had the right idea at heart, a very nice functioning society but sadly they underestimated the stupidity of the human race as a whole.

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This is the katha, really worth listening to.

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On ‎3‎/‎18‎/‎2017 at 2:58 PM, Jacfsing2 said:

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh! Can anyone explain logically why caste still exists in our Panth? Especially among those who tell everyone caste doesn't exist to the outside, but when it comes for actually putting it into practice they forget everything about the right side. There are Hindus today who value their personal caste less than some Sikhs which is just depressing if you asked anyone. Also how can we logically combat this idea in some old-aged Pakhandis minds. Especially among Pakhandidharis, (those who took Amrit yet still keep Non-Sikh practices), which makes people question the need for Amrit. Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

caste is a misused term mate.

I understand caste as origin, trade and tribe, roots etc.  But, hang on>>>> Discriminating against other castes is indeed a crime. 

When one caste disregards or puts down others, then yeh boy>>>, that's wrong.  I see all castes as equal and only see them through a fair lens. Be proud of your caste, be proud of your origin, be proud of your colour. Don't go around slating other castes or acting like you are from highr origin than guy next door.

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The lifestyle of jatts/ramghariyas/chamars can vary vastly. Perhaps, that is why a "jatt" would be hesitant in letting his kids marry someone who is not a "jatt". Most importantly, it is often the people from "lower" castes who don't abandon their habits, they use sikhi to justify their equality without following and respecting other parts of sikhi. Not say all of them are included but quite a few.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Khalistanisinghni said:

The lifestyle of jatts/ramghariyas/chamars can vary vastly. Perhaps, that is why a "jatt" would be hesitant in letting his kids marry someone who is not a "jatt". Most importantly, it is often the people from "lower" castes who don't abandon their habits, they use sikhi to justify their equality without following and respecting other parts of sikhi. Not say all of them are included but quite a few.

I wouldn't have no problem with my kids marrying non-jatt because in terms of tribal trade, we don't do jack all here in UK.  Obviously, my ancestral  trade will no longer be in my blood line which is probably why I am quite proud to call myself with my inherited clan label.

I used to look at caste on the surface and automatically associate with cultural prejudice. But another fellow gurmukh Sikh friend of mine, showed me how the gurus were all married within caste and how it wasn't associated with discrimination. It's just that we people wrongly stick the two labels together.

 

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It's just cultural bs brought over by the previous generation.

If your parents are doctors, does that mean you are automatically a doctor as well? No, you have to study. Just because your parents are Sikh, it doesn't automatically make you a Sikh, you need to take Amrit yourself. 

It is not your janam, but your karam that decide who you are.

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I think that Guru ji gave us the best solution of all: total  responsibility for total freedom , you have become the brahmin, the warrior, the farmer, the merchant the sweeper for yourself and others ...i.e. you do not rely on others to do your job for you, but look to improve and support society by all your abilities and efforts always, to not be a slacker. 

It is funny how shocked my cousins got when I informed them that in the west people clean their own bathrooms and loos ... that there were no servants doing jobs for you in the majority of homes. I remember one said well then I don't want to be married abroad then. Honestly is it really so hard to do the dirty work of life and yet be a spiritually aware active member of society? 

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My parents are over 65 and Amritdhari. Makes me laugh when we are watching Sikh program on sky and someone with a certain style of dastaar is on TV and mother always has to point out that the person is a Mistry. Or she says 'tarkhan lagda aa'. Then I'll be like 'oh so he doesn't look like a Sikh then? Why you be treating man's differently?' then she be like 'they say themselves they are different with their Ramgarhia gurdwaras etc.' lol

When I ask them why they still believe in castes. They say people who are amritdhari don't have caste but everyone else we should treat accordingly. But then they still point out so and so was this caste before Amritdharis chak. Old punjab folk like my parents are really petty when it comes to things like this.

Another thing just to give an example of their way of thinking. They'll say it's okay, or even good for us if my sister ties rakhri on my wrist because I'm not amritdhari. But for them it's a strict no no. But then they try encourage us to do. Same with Lohri and other things. 

We've had plenty of conversations about this and I know they will never change their thinking. Many of the older generation are like this. Some changed but others refuse to. 

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5 minutes ago, HardeepCov said:

My parents are over 65 and Amritdhari. Makes me laugh when we are watching Sikh program on sky and someone with a certain style of dastaar is on TV and mother always has to point out that the person is a Mistry. Or she says 'tarkhan lagda aa'. Then I'll be like 'oh so he doesn't look like a Sikh then? Why you be treating man's differently?' then she be like 'they say themselves they are different with their Ramgarhia gurdwaras etc.' lol

When I ask them why they still believe in castes. They say people who are amritdhari don't have caste but everyone else we should treat accordingly. But then they still point out so and so was this caste before Amritdharis chak. Old punjab folk like my parents are really petty when it comes to things like this.

Another thing just to give an example of their way of thinking. They'll say it's okay, or even good for us if my sister ties rakhri on my wrist because I'm not amritdhari. But for them it's a strict no no. But then they try encourage us to do. Same with Lohri and other things. 

We've had plenty of conversations about this and I know they will never change their thinking. Many of the older generation are like this. Some changed but others refuse to. 

It's because they've been stuck in those ways and they have embedded within them as normal all their lives, that any change or awareness will not shift them. Unless they see other elders they know, change their ways or thoughts, to them it's normal and it's difficult now to introduce new ways. 

If it's done earlier, then would have been easier, that's why the younger generations have a better chance to understand themselves and adjust and be able to put it into practice. 

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1 minute ago, HardeepCov said:

My parents are over 65 and Amritdhari. Makes me laugh when we are watching Sikh program on sky and someone with a certain style of dastaar is on TV and mother always has to point out that the person is a Mistry. Or she says 'tarkhan lagda aa'. Then I'll be like 'oh so he doesn't look like a Sikh then? Why you be treating man's differently?' then she be like 'they say themselves they are different with their Ramgarhia gurdwaras etc.' lol

When I ask them why they still believe in castes. They say people who are amritdhari don't have caste but everyone else we should treat accordingly. But then they still point out so and so was this caste before Amritdharis chak. Old punjab folk like my parents are really petty when it comes to things like this.

Another thing just to give an example of their way of thinking. They'll say it's okay, or even good for us if my sister ties rakhri on my wrist because I'm not amritdhari. But for them it's a strict no no. But then they try encourage us to do. Same with Lohri and other things. 

We've had plenty of conversations about this and I know they will never change their thinking. Many of the older generation are like this. Some changed but others refuse to. 

the same problems kept us young anglo-punjabis quite confused for years. Most of my mates at school could never understand this hypocrisy amongst Punjabi people..  

I spent most of my childhood behaving and trying to do what apnay people like to be SEEN doing. All this ever did, was lead to disorientated youth and penjees running away. It screwed me mentally so much that I was the lowest of low on the streets until I found a reformed old buddy who btw. is on this forum sometimes. This guy helped me to really find myself and taught me naam japna techniques.

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Hanging onto any form of caste (or even being romotely proud of it) is extremely anti-gurmat. You can argue all you want that caste includes trade (so it does) but it was also a really stupid label. Bhai Gurdas Ji said Guru Nanak Dev Ji merged all of them into 1, so everyone has the same caste (i.e label). Caste in context of Jatt, Khatri etc are all extremely narcissistic and Manmukh concoctions of Maya. The reason Caste is extremely stupid and completely against Gurmat is because we have people from ALL over the world who associate with it. Bhai Gurdas Ji explains that because of these divisions (yes you can cry all you want that all castes are equal but the divisions are still there) are nothing more than an ugly look and a product of Kalyug, because of this ugly look people fought and still do. So Guru Nanak merged them all into 1 "caste" of humanity. All of humanity has 1 history, 1 beginning, will have 1 end.  

Edited by Kira
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It's difficult with the older generation. 

It's easier to create young boys than to fix broken old men.

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