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Guest Jacfsing2

Don't want to offend anyone, but women have no business in being in the Punj Pyare because the Punj Pyare represent Guru Sahib and the first 10 of the Gurus were male. (Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the only one who is genderless), among that if we believe that Punj Pyare represent Guru Sahib you'd realize why they can't be Punj Pyare. Amrit is still important for both genders, and anyone who gives Kirpan-Di-Amrit to a woman is a Pakhandi. There is one Amrit: which came from Charan Pahul to Khandi-Di-Pahul which is required for both genders!

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6 minutes ago, Jacfsing2 said:

Don't want to offend anyone, but women have no business in being in the Punj Pyare because the Punj Pyare represent Guru Sahib and the first 10 of the Gurus were male. (Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the only one who is genderless), among that if we believe that Punj Pyare represent Guru Sahib you'd realize why they can't be Punj Pyare. Amrit is still important for both genders, and anyone who gives Kirpan-Di-Amrit to a woman is a Pakhandi. There is one Amrit: which came from Charan Pahul to Khandi-Di-Pahul which is required for both genders!

That reasoning is the worst possible reasoning lol

It's simple. Panj piyare who gave their head were male so to represent them you need 5 Singhs no if and or buts about it. If one or more were Bibi jis then appropriately they would be in Panj 

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Just now, Jacfsing2 said:

Don't want to offend anyone, but women have no business in being in the Punj Pyare because the Punj Pyare represent Guru Sahib and the first 10 of the Gurus were male. (Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji is the only one who is genderless), among that if we believe that Punj Pyare represent Guru Sahib you'd realize why they can't be Punj Pyare. Amrit is still important for both genders, and anyone who gives Kirpan-Di-Amrit to a woman is a Pakhandi. There is one Amrit: which came from Charan Pahul to Khandi-Di-Pahul which is required for both genders!

but you have no objection to a female granthi ?  Because I agree that it would be improper to expect a bibi to get ready and change into bana with her bros as is part of the preparation of the panj . Each time one of the panj reads a bani to prepare the amrit he represents the Guru/ App parmeshvar , no female guru ji so no female panj. 

This whole female panj thing was introduced by 3HO manmat . Also that huge protest at harmandir Sahib about palkisahib sewa .

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5 minutes ago, Singh559 said:

That reasoning is the worst possible reasoning lol

It's simple. Panj piyare who gave their head were male so to represent them you need 5 Singhs no if and or buts about it. If one or more were Bibi jis then appropriately they would be in Panj 

What's wrong with what I said? The Punj Pyare represent the Guru.

 

4 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

but you have no objection to a female granthi ?  Because I agree that it would be improper to expect a bibi to get ready and change into bana with her bros as is part of the preparation of the panj . Each time one of the panj reads a bani to prepare the amrit he represents the Guru/ App parmeshvar , no female guru ji so no female panj. 

This whole female panj thing was introduced by 3HO manmat . Also that huge protest at harmandir Sahib about palkisahib sewa .

In a non-Amrit Sanchar session I have no objection to a female Granthis; however, for Amrit Sanchar I have no side but wouldn't want it personally. (Not an issue worth fighting for, but female in Punj Pyare is something I am completely against). Female Punj Pyare started with that Randhir Singh, who st one moment allowed a female Punj Pyare to give Amrit since their were no males, my view is this INVITE SOME OUTSIDER AMRITDHARI SINGH BEFORE ALLOWING A KAUR TO BE A PUNJ PYARE

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9 minutes ago, HarkiranKaur said:

If you are reducing the Gurus to a gender you have really missed the mark! They were one with Akal purakh. Gender was meaningless. The reason for male form was that in that time a female form would have been ignored. Even today most men see women as inferior and lower spiritually. This thread is a good example.

8 minutes ago, HarkiranKaur said:

Your post reeks of hatred towards women.  That and a bit of superiority complex since you are male. 

My post is not hatred for women, but rather love for Guru Sahib. I haven't even mentioned anything that was about females being inferior to men. In fact from Gurbani mentions how from women even kings are born. If you think it's because of me wanting to be a Punj Pyare, let me tell you I don't feel good enough myself for such a duty. This Seva should require the ultimate strictness and one of those rules being male. The rest some other person can argue with you, because as far as I know you probably haven't even taken Amrit, yet still arguing on something far extended even normal rules. Someone else can do Seva of teaching you. This is my last post on this topic. I said what I needed to say.

Edited by Jacfsing2

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16 minutes ago, HarkiranKaur said:

Not 3HO.... there were females in Panj Pyaras long before 3HO. And AKJ openly practices it. 

sis,  3ho have been in circulation since the 1970s and they are the ones who circulated pictures of all female panj piare (some of the faces I have seen in connection with hindu worship also) ...I can't say I've seen a mixed Panj yet but due to the gurmat  kamai based selection criteria of akj panj I could imagine them having no objections.  

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13 minutes ago, HarkiranKaur said:

Your post reeks of hatred towards women.  That and a bit of superiority complex since you are male. 

Can you think of any Sikh women that lead sangat in Gurmat processions in Sikh history from 1469 to 1708?

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33 minutes ago, Jacfsing2 said:

What's wrong with what I said? The Punj Pyare represent the Guru.

 

In a non-Amrit Sanchar session I have no objection to a female Granthis; however, for Amrit Sanchar I have no side but wouldn't want it personally. (Not an issue worth fighting for, but female in Punj Pyare is something I am completely against). Female Punj Pyare started with that Randhir Singh, who st one moment allowed a female Punj Pyare to give Amrit since their were no males, my view is this INVITE SOME OUTSIDER AMRITDHARI SINGH BEFORE ALLOWING A KAUR TO BE A PUNJ PYARE

mate don't you think that last comment was more than a little harsh , you admit yourself that there were no males  of the required calibre thus another khalsa of appropriate calibre was used ... Bhai Randhir Singh would have known their level of kamai due his own level . 

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I wonder if this is deja vu with discussion about who can be the punj pyare.

I am sure this has been discussed before.

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29 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

mate don't you think that last comment was more than a little harsh , you admit yourself that there were no males  of the required calibre thus another khalsa of appropriate calibre was used ... Bhai Randhir Singh would have known their level of kamai due his own level . 

I can understand why my views might be a bit harsh, but with someone like Randhir Singh, who's famous for not compromising on many parts he believed were Gurmat, to compromise something which is common knowledge is just ridiculous. Woman should take Amrit, which is something important; however, equally important in maintaining the sacredness of this Seva, there are so many other wonderful Sevas, Prachars, and Gurmat-oriented for a woman to do, all of them important and can inspire Kaurs of all ages to do right things. I'd really like to see Randhir Singh have the guts to do this at Mehta or Bhindran or even Nanded, he never did this there because he knew what was right and wrong. Baba Deep Singh Ji would've given him some form of punishment.

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3 minutes ago, HarkiranKaur said:

If you have such Love for the Guru then respect your only and eternal Guru, Guru Granth Sahib ji. Gurbani says as Gurmukh to see ALL with a single eye of equality (which means treat equally) for in each and every heart the divine light is contained. That divine light is the ONE and only light of Akal Purakh. By dismissing bibis with a statement like that to say an outsider Singh is still better than such a lowly Kaur, you are actually refusing Akal Purakh in female form to do this seva! Gurbani says he IS the male AND the female. The chess player and the board, it's the same ONE actor who is playing ALL the characters. This world is an illusion. A dream. Gender is transient and inconsequential. A <banned word filter activated> won't get you anywhere when this life is done. 

For your information yes I have taken Amrit at a historical Gurdwara in Kashmir. And the Panj Pyaras that day specifically told us Kaur's present that day they WANT to see some of us in their place some day and that there is NOTHING in Gurbani that prohibits it. Gurbani sees all humans as equal. It's male ego who can't let go of privilege. 

There is a saying that for those who have been always given privilege, equality seems like oppression to them. That's why men who have had it so good for so long feel so threatened to give Kaurs their due right to equality. 

Preparing amrit does not require male anatomy. It requires high avastha which both males and females can attain and it requires strict Rehet and physical ability to carry out the ceremony. The light of the Guru is genderless. Guru Ji will come if any five Sikhs with high avastha are preparing Amrit. Learn to see past the physical shell and see the divine light instead. 

Don't know if your fluent in English but:

1 hour ago, Jacfsing2 said:

This is my last post on this topic. I said what I needed to say.

From my side, I'm done with the arguing with you, argue with someone else now. :waheguru:

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35 minutes ago, Jacfsing2 said:

I can understand why my views might be a bit harsh, but with someone like Randhir Singh, who's famous for not compromising on many parts he believed were Gurmat, to compromise something which is common knowledge is just ridiculous. Woman should take Amrit, which is something important; however, equally important in maintaining the sacredness of this Seva, there are so many other wonderful Sevas, Prachars, and Gurmat-oriented for a woman to do, all of them important and can inspire Kaurs of all ages to do right things. I'd really like to see Randhir Singh have the guts to do this at Mehta or Bhindran or even Nanded, he never did this there because he knew what was right and wrong. Baba Deep Singh Ji would've given him some form of punishment.

I will not criticise Bhai Sahib because he was brahmgiani and I know that there are points of contention which Sant Baba Thakur Singh ji had with him but they could agree to disagree to maintain panthic ekta , we should all try to not be so rigid that we started to see our brothers and sisters as 'other' . Waheguru ji will make his wish for the panth clear. 

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1 hour ago, jkvlondon said:

I will not criticise Bhai Sahib because he was brahmgiani and I know that there are points of contention which Sant Baba Thakur Singh ji had with him but they could agree to disagree to maintain panthic ekta , we should all try to not be so rigid that we started to see our brothers and sisters as 'other' . Waheguru ji will make his wish for the panth clear. 

Ok, I apologize if I offended anyone, but my views are still the same and it is that females shouldn't be Punj Pyare. Bhul Chuk Maaf

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5 hours ago, HarkiranKaur said:

So tell me why does their gender matter? Does their caste matter? Should we only allow those from the castes who volunteered that day? How about skin colour? Should no white singhs be allowed since no white singh volunteered heir head that day? Why is it only gender matters???? And please use Gurbani to support your answer. 

 

This is a great point.

 

Why do people insist on replicating the gender of the panj pyare, but not their other attributes?

Why not insist on panj pyare who come from the same geographic areas, same castes, have the same height/weights, same ages, etc. as the original panj pyare?

 

It just shows how ridiculous it is to insist that the panj pyare be male.

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