Khalistanisinghni

The modern day "Kaurs"

123 posts in this topic

WJKK WJKF,

Now before this discussion begins, spare us all with "you aren't perfect so stop talking", "they might be better off on the inside" wale bachans, because yes, they might be better than us on the inside and we are not perfect. But as a panth, we should have the right to make sure that people are not misunderstanding sikhi and defining it their way, instead of that defined by Guru ji.

 

there are quite a few women, who tie dastars and are amritdhari, beautiful but then some of them constantly reject the maryada. Now, I have been taught that a true Sikh never neglects the maryada and a true Sikh aims to follow the most of it. These women wear make up, shorts and low-neck shirts, dancing and singing songs, swearing. While feminism has a great role to play in the whole "make up and clothing" choices, they often blame some Singhs for exposing their body, which I am against, simply because both parties are luring the other into "lust" (read it from a post, makes sense)

 

i read a few posts from kaurlife and they wish to achieve women equality by wearing fewer clothes because singhs do it, participate in the panj pyare and walking beside their husband during anand karaj. Ignoring that as a panth we are all in it together, we shall help each other instead of trying our best to let the other spiritually down. 

It is hard to have them listen to us, so... Opinions ?

Edited by Khalistanisinghni
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It's a  really depressing scene out there , where our younger sisters and daughters are surrounded by toxic thoughts patterns of western amorality and atheism . It's the constant elevation of the body and maya above the character and sewa -simran which is the main problem. frankly it turns my stomach when they use SJW 3rd wave feminist justifications for the lack of self-respect , the dressing like a sex object then getting offended if they are called out on their lewd behaviour.

The only way I can see a bridge being created to an enlightened generation of singnian is forming a core of strong , knowledgeable singhnian who can answer all and any questions on dharam and hold constant cycles of classes/clubs parchaar lehars  just like at the start of sikhi. The Guru Sahiban knew that Sikhi has to start where the people are at , close to home and there has to be women leading sangat just as much as the guys.

as they say it takes iron to cut iron maybe a better online presence with A New Woman friendly website with:

 proper detailed gurmat gian especially ethics and rehit ,

psychological analysis of the sikh female psyche and how it relates back to the modern world( how 3rd wave feminism is actually the lower standard of freedom/egalatrian) ,

Links to reading lists, sites with english katha ,

highlighting  itihassic females with detailed sakhian perhaps like the ones in Kulbir SIngh's book ,

Modern profiles of  international Singhni,

international news relating to sikh projects manned/started by bibian .

Kirtan vidiya vids for free (especially tanti saaz)  ,

maybe a project to  gather living history , accounts of those bibian who suffered through partition, 1984 .

Fund -drives to support widows of farmer suicide, abandoned females,

Sikh anti -daaj lehar linked with anti-female foeticide lehar.  

Question and answer service 

counselling help for abuse victims

refuting or correcting misrepresentation/misinterpretation of issues by other sites 

 

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First of all, neither male or female should be wearing shorts, or dancing Bhangra etc. It seems that for boys most it. Their eyes the other way but tsk tsk the girls. It has to be all or nothing.

Secondly, Sikh Rehet Maryada explicitly allows both male and female participate as Panj Pyaras so please don't try to look down on Amritdhari Kaur's who have done this seva.  Did you know prior to 1699 masands had Guru given permission to initiate Sikhs by charan Amrit in absence of the Guru? And that there were women masands means women already prior to 1699 initiated others. There is no reason to believe that Guru Gobind Singh would turn vaisakhi 1699 into a gender competition! He asked the panth for 5 heads and the panth delivered. Their gender was of no consequence. And anyway you are speaking about Rehet Maryada and it's explicit, women are allowed to act as Panj Pyaras. 

As for marriage as long as we remember why we are circling Guru Granth Sahib Ji and never look at it as one leading and one following the. It's ok. The husband is not being put in some leader role over his wife that's not what it's about. The wife is not being told to be an obedient follower. If that's what some think then they lost the meaning. Husband and wife are one. Neither is in authority or leader over the other. If both walk side by side then one is further from the Guru. In a circle nobody really leads. If one hurries around who will they be behind? We have to get away from the notion that a wife is a subordinate follower or that a husband has some great Waheguru given leader role over his wife because once that notion is gone and we see that they are equals in marriage then who cares who is in front? It's only when we oit a meaning of the husband being leader while the wife has to be a submissive follower that's when it seems unfair and unequal. So teach that the husband is NOT above the wife or in any sort of leader role over her. They are equals. Then who cares who stars the circling. 

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Agreed with OP. Also bibian should not have a role in preparing Amrit because it is against maryada of 5 Singhs. Has nothing to do with equality. 

 

I don't care which feminazi has how many followers and thirsty fobs agreeing with everything she says I would gladly explain the reasoning in person. We all should be confident enough to not give in to this feminazi culture that is attempting to hijack Sikh sidhaant.

 

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I say the following with the utmost sincerity, but if Gursikh bibis are serious about setting an example from a Gurmat perspective minus any of the frankly incompatible influences of modern liberalism, they'll have to stand apart from the men. You can't even be seen to be standing in their shadow, or encourage the idea that some unseen male hands are pulling the strings. I've noticed that's a tactic certain whites use to undermine female Muslim adherents, by stating they've been brainwashed by the overwhelming "maleness" of their religion; basically they're acting out of obligation and fear instead of genuine conviction. Equally, don't get caught up in the sisterhood aspect of it all that you begin to alienate Sikh brothers. It's a fine line to tread, just like Sikhi, and it won't be easy. Your loyalty should be to the non-partisan ideals of Sikhi, not women, men, or any other group. Sacrifices will need to be made on many fronts: personal, social, professional, etc, but if you and like-minded bibis are serious, i don't see why good cannot come of this.

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12 minutes ago, HarkiranKaur said:

 

Secondly, Sikh Rehet Maryada explicitly allows both male and female participate as Panj Pyaras so please don't try to look down on Amritdhari Kaur's who have done this seva.  Did you know prior to 1699 masands had Guru given permission to initiate Sikhs by charan Amrit in absence of the Guru? And that there were women masands means women already prior to 1699 initiated others. There is no reason to believe that Guru Gobind Singh would turn vaisakhi 1699 into a gender competition! He asked the panth for 5 heads and the panth delivered. Their gender was of no consequence. And anyway you are speaking about Rehet Maryada and it's explicit, women are allowed to act as Panj Pyaras. 

 

As for marriage as long as we remember why we are circling Guru Granth Sahib Ji and never look at it as one leading and one following the. It's ok. The husband is not being put in some leader role over his wife that's not what it's about. The wife is not being told to be an obedient follower. If that's what some think then they lost the meaning. Husband and wife are one. Neither is in authority or leader over the other. If both walk side by side then one is further from the Guru. In a circle nobody really leads. If one hurries around who will they be behind? We have to get away from the notion that a wife is a subordinate follower or that a husband has some great Waheguru given leader role over his wife because once that notion is gone and we see that they are equals in marriage then who cares who is in front? It's only when we oit a meaning of the husband being leader while the wife has to be a submissive follower that's when it seems unfair and unequal. 

1. Which Rehat maryada are you looking at? 

2. Don't see the "inequality" in a singh walking ahead of his wife-to-be during anand karaj, if they have been doing that ever since Guru ram das ji maharaj completed Laavan. So yes, can hardly see the inequality! 

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9 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

I say the following with the utmost sincerity, but if Gursikh bibis are serious about setting an example from a Gurmat perspective minus any of the frankly incompatible influences of modern liberalism, they'll have to stand apart from the men. You can't even be seen to be standing in their shadow, or encourage the idea that some unseen male hands are pulling the strings. I've noticed that's a tactic certain whites use to undermine female Muslim adherents, by stating they've been brainwashed by the overwhelming "maleness" of their religion; basically they're acting out of obligation and fear instead of genuine conviction. Equally, don't get caught up in the sisterhood aspect of it all that you begin to alienate Sikh brothers. It's a fine line to tread, just like Sikhi, and it won't be easy. Your loyalty should be to the non-partisan ideals of Sikhi, not women, men, or any other group. Sacrifices will need to be made on many fronts: personal, social, professional, etc, but if you and like-minded bibis are serious, i don't see why good cannot come of this.

I personally doubt don't know if the women need help or are constantly ignoring the help they already can get/are getting

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26 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

It's a  really depressing scene out there , where our younger sisters and daughters are surrounded by toxic thoughts patterns of western amorality and atheism . It's the constant elevation of the body and maya above the character and sewa -simran which is the main problem. frankly it turns my stomach when they use SJW 3rd wave feminist justifications for the lack of self-respect , the dressing like a sex object then getting offended if they are called out on their lewd behaviour.

The only way I can see a bridge being created to an enlightened generation of singnian is forming a core of strong , knowledgeable singhnian who can answer all and any questions on dharam and hold constant cycles of classes/clubs parchaar lehars  just like at the start of sikhi. The Guru Sahiban knew that Sikhi has to start where the people are at , close to home and there has to be women leading sangat just as much as the guys.

as they say it takes iron to cut iron maybe a better online presence with A New Woman friendly website with:

 proper detailed gurmat gian especially ethics and rehit ,

psychological analysis of the sikh female psyche and how it relates back to the modern world( how 3rd wave feminism is actually the lower standard of freedom/egalatrian) ,

Links to reading lists, sites with english katha ,

highlighting  itihassic females with detailed sakhian perhaps like the ones in Kulbir SIngh's book ,

Modern profiles of  international Singhni,

international news relating to sikh projects manned/started by bibian .

Kirtan vidiya vids for free (especially tanti saaz)  ,

maybe a project to  gather living history , accounts of those bibian who suffered through partition, 1984 .

Fund -drives to support widows of farmer suicide, abandoned females,

Sikh anti -daaj lehar linked with anti-female foeticide lehar.  

Question and answer service 

counselling help for abuse victims

refuting or correcting misrepresentation/misinterpretation of issues by other sites 

 

Loved the solutions, will take time but should be quite effective unless women will again ignore the help they are being offered from their own sisters and look for it in the hands of their liberal friends.

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1 minute ago, Khalistanisinghni said:

I personally doubt don't know if the women need help or are constantly ignoring the help they already can get/are getting

In my opinion they need strong female voices to remind them of what Sikhi is, not what they'd like it to be. The undergrowth will need to be cleared from the woodland so all that remains are the trees. Undergrowth = extraneous ideologies that are conflated with Sikhi that bear little to no relevance to its ideals.

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9 minutes ago, Khalistanisinghni said:

Loved the solutions, will take time but should be quite effective unless women will again ignore the help they are being offered from their own sisters and look for it in the hands of their liberal friends.

Main disconnect is from not knowing just how we as women fitted into the development of the panth and the fact that  generations of men trying to diminish that aspect of history when it is the grass roots support of women that grew the panth prior to the war period of sikhi and their continued hard work in the homesteads that kept the elders and younger generation alive .

If we help them see we are just as much a vital part of sikh kaum and reconnect to their forebears they cannot help but become suput again

Sikhi starts at home ... Ghar Ghar andar Dharmshal ...

we need to appeal to their inner sense of purpose and give them a new mission to promote sikhi and support each other across the globe

Edited by jkvlondon
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Basically,

if we bring women back to Sikhi- the original version :notalk:

the Singhs will improve to marry these women in Chardikala,

chardikala wale bhujangis/bhujangans will be born from these chardikala wale couple,

and khalsa raj. (Except that it is not an easy job and will only be successful when it appeals to him, so perhaps what we can do for now is read more bani and do ardaas benti)

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13 minutes ago, Khalistanisinghni said:

Loved the solutions, will take time but should be quite effective unless women will again ignore the help they are being offered from their own sisters and look for it in the hands of their liberal friends.

the things I would avoid is the homemaker style approach with fashion,cooking and beauty tips as most sites are like instead have high quality intelligent  hi-calibre gursikh discussions of issues with emphasis on the development of discipline, stoicism, chardikala, martial arts, strength/speed training, latest health news, holistic healthcare knowledge.

so we create a platform for the development of a well rounded sikh individual.

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8 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

Main disconnect is from not knowing just how we as women fitted into the development of the panth and the fact that  generations of men trying to diminish that aspect of history when it is the grass roots support of women that grew the panth prior to the war period of sikhi and their continued hard work in the homesteads that kept the elders and younger generation alive .

Not that it matters but i wholeheartedly agree with the idea that the above in bold needs to be the point of attack. ^^^ This is your way in.

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3 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

Not that it matters but i wholeheartedly agree with the idea that the above in bold needs to be the point of attack. ^^^ This is your way in.

problem is most sikh women only know a handful of sikh women , if lucky:

Bebe Nanaki

mata Khivi

Bibi Bhani

Mata Gujri 

Mai Bhago

and all of them had direct relations to the Guru Sahiban ...there isn't much emphasis on any ordinary gursikh women, for instance the ones who manned the manjis .

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4 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

problem is most sikh women only know a handful of sikh women , if lucky:

Bebe Nanaki

mata Khivi

Bibi Bhani

Mata Gujri 

Mai Bhago

and all of them had direct relations to the Guru Sahiban ...there isn't much emphasis on any ordinary gursikh women, for instance the ones who manned the manjis .

You'd be surprised at how little most Sikhs know about the individuals you've listed above aside from the very basics. I'd start with them before turning my attention to the day-to-day localised individuals. Give people a wider religious context of the women that stood shoulder to shoulder with the notable male figures of the panth.

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1 hour ago, Khalistanisinghni said:

1. Which Rehat maryada are you looking at? 

2. Don't see the "inequality" in a singh walking ahead of his wife-to-be during anand karaj, if they have been doing that ever since Guru ram das ji maharaj completed Laavan. So yes, can hardly see the inequality! 

Where the inequality comes is that many people perpetuate the idea that because the husband is in front it must mean the wife is to be his subordinate follower and that the husband is in charge over her. It's been used too many times to tell soon to be wives that it means whatever the husband says goes and she must be submissive and obedient to him. That's where the inequality comes. But that's not what the symbolism is at all and those who think so are wrong. The actual meaning of the lavaans has nothing to do with human marriage and is about the souls journey to Waheguru. The married couple as ONE make that journey together as ONE. That's why they are connected. It's a symbolic play of soul journey back to Waheguru.  There is no leader or follower. They are ONE. Why does the male initiate? Purely because historically the women left her home to go to his. We have to erase this stupid idea that it means that the woman has to be submissive obedient to her husband who is in charge over her. They are equals. Period. Gurbani says so!!!  That's ultimate authority! 

As for Rehet Maryada I have attached it. It's he English version but even in the Punjabi version it's there and you can check for yourself. Look at para b under ceremony of baptism. This is the panthic accepted Maryada, though I know several deras groups etc have their own. But this is the only one accepted by Akal Takht and is considered the one that the panth is to follow. It's also the same one used in all of the historical Gurdwaras. 

IMG_0654.PNG

Edited by HarkiranKaur

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1 hour ago, MisterrSingh said:

You'd be surprised at how little most Sikhs know about the individuals you've listed above aside from the very basics. I'd start with them before turning my attention to the day-to-day localised individuals. Give people a wider religious context of the women that stood shoulder to shoulder with the notable male figures of the panth.

Mata gujar kaur ji stood by Guru tegh bahadhur maharaj ji when they were doing bhagti and did it together. (One of many examples)

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56 minutes ago, Khalistanisinghni said:

Mata gujar kaur ji stood by Guru tegh bahadhur maharaj ji when they were doing bhagti and did it together. (One of many examples)

you forget she was also doing sewa of her mother in law Mata nanki and sangat sewa who came to visit Bebe ji. She acted as pehredar for her Husband Bhagti 

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8 minutes ago, Khalistanisinghni said:

Is this the maryada from SGPC

Yes

it's suitably ambiguous by saying  of the six khalse doing amritsanchar sewa some can be female that allows for panj singh and one Kaur who is pehredaar/Granthi 

Edited by jkvlondon
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13 minutes ago, Khalistanisinghni said:

Is this the maryada from SGPC

Yes, and where is the equal rights to transgender people to be in punj pyare.  What about those people in this world who believe they are animals (this is not a joke). Sgpc maryada by default becomes invalid because it discriminated. Clearly the people who made this rehat maryada did not understand Guru Granth Sahib ji.  

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2 minutes ago, Akalifauj said:

Yes, and where is the equal rights to transgender people to be in punj pyare.  What about those people in this world who believe they are animals (this is not a joke). Sgpc maryada by default becomes invalid because it discriminated. Clearly the people who made this rehat maryada did not understand Guru Granth Sahib ji.  

mate 13 years of discussion amongst the top sikh vidhvaans  and dharmic  and you are throwing the whole thing aside because of some messed up mental issues loki ?

Sikhs are supposed to live in hukham are they if they are saying 'Waheguru made a mistake I know better;'?

To serve in the panj you have to have immense kamai as an immaculate rehitvaan gursikh  , have they? 

Which Gursikh has gone TG?  consider also to do so would negate their rehit as they would do rom di beadbhi before any of the other issues so thus eliminate them from consideration. Bhai Rama Singh ji served in the Panj for decades here in the UK and other countries but as soon as he had heart surgery he stopped as the  rehit is uppermost.

Would you have confidence taking amrit from someone who dresses as fido and barks because he is convinced he is a dog ?

Stop being silly

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This is vapid mentality we have to counter 

 

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Oh then it's not gurmat maryada, it's manmat maryada. Forget about it, was never a maryada approved by the panth, do read the disclaimer next time!

 

clearly not able to see why is it that women have so many other sewas at gurdwara but would love to participate in panj Pyare. Had they really believed the Khalsa to not have any gender, they would have know that the gurus, sahibzaade and pyares were physically male for a reason while spiritually same as us women.

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3 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

This is vapid mentality we have to counter 

 

Why would you ever have this video up on YouTube. 

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