Jacfsing2

Gender Ratio of Amritdharis?

39 posts in this topic

Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh! Why is there such a bad gender ratio of fewer female Amritdharis than that of male Amritdharis? Do the parents teach the daughter about the need for Amrit or what? (Also I seem to notice that some of them seem to be told off that if they want to take Amrit to wait till marriage; which only hurts this ratio more.) Is there a way to get both males and females interested, in the olden days people begged to take Amrit, now pracharks are begging for others to take Amrit. (Also if someone falls in Prem with Guru Sahib; what stalls them from taking Amrit.) Just wanted to know these questions with the answers. Vaheguru Ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru Ji Ki Fateh!

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Parents do not promote amrit to their children.  Someone who wears a dastar once told me ... he does not want his son to have a handicap of dastar which will limit his swimming abilities.

Mothers are more concerned about whether their future in laws will allow their daughters to remain vegetarian and to perform path too. 

Altogether parents are more concerned about financial security of their children and consider religion to be a limitation. 

Children pick up the bits of religion out of self interest. Some or most parents step in as a discouraging factor.  Those who are forced to keep kesh, cannot wait for their parents to pass away so they can get their freedom. 

We have to educate ourselves and step above maya to realise the true purpose of our human birth and alsothe rreality and the truth which has been revealed in the SGGS.

Children currently would give English 6 days a week and 2 hours a week for punjabi, gurmukhi or santheya. Our religion should be seen as part of our day to day living...... not a necessity which elders force us into.

 

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's for the best. At least if there's less of them they're safe from guys like OP. :rofl I'm just kidding with you, Singh.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, sikhni777 said:

Parents do not promote amrit to their children.  Someone who wears a dastar once told me ... he does not want his son to have a handicap of dastar which will limit his swimming abilities.

Mothers are more concerned about whether their future in laws will allow their daughters to remain vegetarian and to perform path too. 

Altogether parents are more concerned about financial security of their children and consider religion to be a limitation. 

Children pick up the bits of religion out of self interest. Some or most parents step in as a discouraging factor.  Those who are forced to keep kesh, cannot wait for their parents to pass away so they can get their freedom. 

We have to educate ourselves and step above maya to realise the true purpose of our human birth and alsothe rreality and the truth which has been revealed in the SGGS.

Children currently would give English 6 days a week and 2 hours a week for punjabi, gurmukhi or santheya. Our religion should be seen as part of our day to day living...... not a necessity which elders force us into.

These all seem reasonable to an extent, (trying to understand both sides), but these could be easily resolved if we encouraged more general Amrit Sanchars among our youth. We need Maya, (not going to disagree), but what parent knowing wouldn't want the best spiritual way for their kids, (and they call themselves Sikhs), to be pushing Amrit away. I'm not a parent, (or even married for that matter), but after you reach a state of financial responsibility then the wealthy need goes down, (but you can't replace financial responsibility), after that you can see the actual values. 

The bigger question is: Do Parents Care About Sikhi?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think women view keeping body hair as a great limitation that will isolate them socially.  I think that at least partially explains the amritdhari gender gap.  But that is only one factor.

 

In general, I think young Sikh women are less inclined to feel a connection with their Sikh heritage than young Sikh men are (even in cases where that connection does not necessarily involve being amritdhari).

For this, I blame their conflation of Sikhi with conservative Punjabi culture.  While the former is very progressive in terms of promoting gender equality, the latter is the opposite.  Let's face it: a lot of our parents (especially those from rural, uneducated backgrounds) treat their sons and daughters differently.  In some cases, the different treatment is administered with the best intentions in mind (but a lack of awareness of what is perceived to be sexist in the modern world).  In other cases, there is outright favoritism of boys. 

 

This is a dire problem, and we need to do something to increase the number of amritdhari women, and more generally, engage more young Sikh women and let them know that Sikhi is for them.

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree with pretty much everything said here.

Whether it's the parents, the media, western culture or personal weakness, it's hurting the ratio badly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe it's because men and women become amritdhari for different reasons.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

1. Because Amritdhari Singhs are going for non-amritdhari Women, ignoring and rejecting those with facial hair/unibrows. - so the whole idea of body hair kicks in.

2. Somehow we do not have enough of Women parchariks to get to the girls.

3. Parents lack education and fail to let their children walk on the path of sikh at an early age, choosing to equip them with worldly criteria of beauty and success.

4. Women who do tie dastars have put up an image that they are the same as all other women, except with certain eating and drinking restrictions. So women don't see the point of having to get amrit.

Edited by Khalistanisinghni
2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'd be very interested, from a statistical standpoint, the spread of female Gursikhs across the various jathe; or not as the case may be. I think a lot could be gained from identifying which jatha attracts the highest numbers of female Sikhs. From there you could ascertain why that is, and certain groups could take steps to correct a potential imbalance. Anecdotally i have an idea which jatha has the highest numbers of female Gursikhs, but it's just a hunch.

However, that would only work if the female takes amrit before marriage. I might be way off target here, but I'm assuming a female is expected to follow the same rehat as her husband, so i suppose she has less choice in her adherence to a certain jatha's rehat, than a female who decides not to wait to see which jatha her husband belongs to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, MisterrSingh said:

I'd be very interested, from a statistical standpoint, the spread of female Gursikhs across the various jathe; or not as the case may be. I think a lot could be gained from identifying which jatha attracts the highest numbers of female Sikhs. From there you could ascertain why that is, and certain groups could take steps to correct a potential imbalance. Anecdotally i have an idea which jatha has the highest numbers of female Gursikhs, but it's just a hunch.

However, that would only work if the female takes amrit before marriage. I might be way off target here, but I'm assuming a female is expected to follow the same rehat as her husband, so i suppose she has less choice in her adherence to a certain jatha's rehat, than a female who decides not to wait to see which jatha her husband belongs to.

I agree a bibi should answer the call to Amrit as soon as possible before marriage because otherwise she would not have developed enough depth of abiyhass to discern potential hazards to her sikhi by prospective families . Plenty of oppressive in-laws out there without the complication of control of jatha rehit . 

A Gursikh is a Gursikh there is very little difference in rehit , maybe some do more i their nitnem others less  but we are told by Guru ji to always look to increase , the jatha amrit sanchar is just the launchpad  the swim is ahead of us .

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Ranjeet01 said:

Maybe it's because men and women become amritdhari for different reasons.

 

men I think do it for status if they are immature but most hopefully because of love of the Guru

Women for the love of guru firstly because so many oppose her  but some do only  for family 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

I agree a bibi should answer the call to Amrit as soon as possible before marriage because otherwise she would not have developed enough depth of abiyhass to discern potential hazards to her sikhi by prospective families . Plenty of oppressive in-laws out there without the complication of control of jatha rehit . 

A Gursikh is a Gursikh there is very little difference in rehit , maybe some do more i their nitnem others less  but we are told by Guru ji to always look to increase , the jatha amrit sanchar is just the launchpad  the swim is ahead of us .

The reasons for taking amrit would need to identified and confronted (for both sexes), even if that means facing up to a few uncomfortable truths that have never, or rarely, been discussed. Because looking around at the state of the panth today in the West (beyond the dazzle of the surface), do you not wonder about certain individuals, "What is it about Sikhi that drew YOU to take amrit, you poor excuse for a human being?" We could flap our gums and pay lip service whilst ignoring the hathi in the room, or we could get serious. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

I'd be very interested, from a statistical standpoint, the spread of female Gursikhs across the various jathe; or not as the case may be. I think a lot could be gained from identifying which jatha attracts the highest numbers of female Sikhs. From there you could ascertain why that is, and certain groups could take steps to correct a potential imbalance. Anecdotally i have an idea which jatha has the highest numbers of female Gursikhs, but it's just a hunch.

However, that would only work if the female takes amrit before marriage. I might be way off target here, but I'm assuming a female is expected to follow the same rehat as her husband, so i suppose she has less choice in her adherence to a certain jatha's rehat, than a female who decides not to wait to see which jatha her husband belongs to.

Personally I'd not be too interested in a Jatha-fanatic to be spreading Gurmat, especially since each Jatha has it's Pakhand. We all know the Jatha which inspires the most women to take Amrit from before marriage, (not going to directly name it as some Jatha-fanatic would be complaining about it), and even that Jatha has it's personal problems. Keeping Rehat and taking Amrit are both wonderful things; however, if your not willing to comprimise on controversial issues especially when your side and the other Sikh persons views are radically different don't mention it, and don't try going to a Rishta if you view it important to you. Also we all hopefully remember that girl that married the Mahapurukh and just starting complaing that he wasn't wordly enough.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Khalistanisinghni said:

 

1. Because Amritdhari Singhs are going for non-amritdhari Women, ignoring and rejecting those with facial hair/unibrows. - so the whole idea of body hair kicks in.

 

This is interesting because i know of a few Amritdhari Singhs who married non-amritdhari women and 2 of them have take Amrit a few years after they got married (one of the ladies even ties a dastaar) but their husband's still drop hint's about removing any excess hair and "shaping them eyebrows", double standards a-plenty from the men.

It take's a strong man, both in mentality and spirituality to accept his wife if she has taken amrit and her appearance doesn't "comply" with the norms of society but it takes an even stronger woman to take amrit reject the norms of society and follow Guru sahib.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The crux of this particular issue is in the context of hair.

Hair all over the body is seen as a masculine trait. Therefore, it is seen as acceptable for an Amritdhari male. 

However, in society hair outside the head area is not seen as a feminine trait.

The problem is Amritdharis are seen as somehow above being human and are enhanced spiritual beings. They are still humans and humans are going to human.

Several years of Amritdhari ness may not be enough over-ride thousands of years of hardwired biology.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

The crux of this particular issue is in the context of hair.

Hair all over the body is seen as a masculine trait. Therefore, it is seen as acceptable for an Amritdhari male. 

However, in society hair outside the head area is not seen as a feminine trait.

The problem is Amritdharis are seen as somehow above being human and are enhanced spiritual beings. They are still humans and humans are going to human.

Several years of Amritdhari ness may not be enough over-ride thousands of years of hardwired biology.

 

28 minutes ago, kcmidlands said:

This is interesting because i know of a few Amritdhari Singhs who married non-amritdhari women and 2 of them have take Amrit a few years after they got married (one of the ladies even ties a dastaar) but their husband's still drop hint's about removing any excess hair and "shaping them eyebrows", double standards a-plenty from the men.

It take's a strong man, both in mentality and spirituality to accept his wife if she has taken amrit and her appearance doesn't "comply" with the norms of society but it takes an even stronger woman to take amrit reject the norms of society and follow Guru sahib.

 

Kesh is something that's a beautiful thing for men and women. But forget Kesh, if there isn't respect in a marriage then what is there going to be? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

The crux of this particular issue is in the context of hair.

Hair all over the body is seen as a masculine trait. Therefore, it is seen as acceptable for an Amritdhari male. 

However, in society hair outside the head area is not seen as a feminine trait.

The problem is Amritdharis are seen as somehow above being human and are enhanced spiritual beings. They are still humans and humans are going to human.

Several years of Amritdhari ness may not be enough over-ride thousands of years of hardwired biology.

which society mate ? MUslim maybe but then again even the men do full Hijamit including the kacchera region. roman, greek, christian, jewish , hindu but all these are about doing things to please the men and the fact that women are supposed to be sexually available always shows that it is kaam based .

AMritdharis are not to do the four Hs hookah, Halal, Haram and Hijamat...  this is from the get go ... so no not in Sikh culture. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

which society mate ? MUslim maybe but then again even the men do full Hijamit including the kacchera region. roman, greek, christian, jewish , hindu but all these are about doing things to please the men and the fact that women are supposed to be sexually available always shows that it is kaam based .

AMritdharis are not to do the four Hs hookah, Halal, Haram and Hijamat...  this is from the get go ... so no not in Sikh culture. 

I am generalising here. 

Are Sikhs a culture?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The need for the modern day woman to go out and work is a great factor which determines why our girls are not ready to commit to being amritdhari. Most would say - even the Amritdhari would say one thing - we remember God from the depth of our heart and we are not too concerned about outward experience. 

In the olden days, when looks did not matter as much - a little facial hair or leg or arm hair would not make anyone self conscious. Therefore when our girls have to mingle with others who keep their skins looking clean and hairless - they get the inferiority complex. So girls would not like to commit the paap of taking amrit only to break it - as it is called - later. 

People had Amrit and they supported it in the olden days when they were actually faced with the prospect of extinction. If the Sikhs had not expanded and multiplied by the one son which the Hindus gave to become Sikh, then Sikhi would not survived up to today. It almost seems like there is no need for physical wars which was a necessity in the earlier times. 

Sikhi has to be redifined and preached as a saviour of our souls. Naam jap comes first. Kesha dhari Sikhs giving bad or rude words to ones to cut their hair - is not a solution. The proper understanding of the basics of our religion is the one which is going to save our religion.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Jacfsing2 said:

Personally I'd not be too interested in a Jatha-fanatic to be spreading Gurmat, especially since each Jatha has it's Pakhand. We all know the Jatha which inspires the most women to take Amrit from before marriage, (not going to directly name it as some Jatha-fanatic would be complaining about it), and even that Jatha has it's personal problems. Keeping Rehat and taking Amrit are both wonderful things; however, if your not willing to comprimise on controversial issues especially when your side and the other Sikh persons views are radically different don't mention it, and don't try going to a Rishta if you view it important to you. Also we all hopefully remember that girl that married the Mahapurukh and just starting complaing that he wasn't wordly enough.

Totally agree.

Yet jatha adherence and fervour for certain personalities seems to be getting out of hand. I'm not sure you're referring to the same jatha I'm alluding to - let's not begin a guessing game - but it is a problem which, amazingly, isn't considered to be a big deal. Oh but it will be a huge deal one day. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Ranjeet01 said:

I am generalising here. 

Are Sikhs a culture?

i think so they have their own script , language (nihang boli , gurmukhi/old panjabi), festivals seperate from punjabi culture ones, customs for the main landmarks in life , sense of ethics, philosophy of life sangeet  schools, instruments etc etc

Edited by jkvlondon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, sikhni777 said:

The need for the modern day woman to go out and work is a great factor which determines why our girls are not ready to commit to being amritdhari. Most would say - even the Amritdhari would say one thing - we remember God from the depth of our heart and we are not too concerned about outward experience. 

In the olden days, when looks did not matter as much - a little facial hair or leg or arm hair would not make anyone self conscious. Therefore when our girls have to mingle with others who keep their skins looking clean and hairless - they get the inferiority complex. So girls would not like to commit the paap of taking amrit only to break it - as it is called - later. 

People had Amrit and they supported it in the olden days when they were actually faced with the prospect of extinction. If the Sikhs had not expanded and multiplied by the one son which the Hindus gave to become Sikh, then Sikhi would not survived up to today. It almost seems like there is no need for physical wars which was a necessity in the earlier times. 

Sikhi has to be redifined and preached as a saviour of our souls. Naam jap comes first. Kesha dhari Sikhs giving bad or rude words to ones to cut their hair - is not a solution. The proper understanding of the basics of our religion is the one which is going to save our religion.

 

clean and hairless ? see how even you are using their language , kesh are not dirty if you bathe regularly . realise how those adverts seep into your subconcious so that we inadvertently use similar language ourselves. 

the way I am handling it with little Isher Kaur is explaining to her the jobs that her rom do for her, how it's part of her and she is lovely as Waheguru ji made her. 

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, sikhni777 said:

If the Sikhs had not expanded and multiplied by the one son which the Hindus gave to become Sikh, then Sikhi would not survived up to today.

Only Khatris did this, and among Khatris only Punjabi Khatris.

 

30 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

rom

Forgive me, but what's rom?

 

1 hour ago, Ranjeet01 said:

Are Sikhs a culture?

Depends upon what you mean by culture?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Jacfsing2 said:

Only Khatris did this, and among Khatris only Punjabi Khatris.

 

Forgive me, but what's rom?

 

Depends upon what you mean by culture?

rom the hair pores i.e. all the hair on the skin

 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

Totally agree.

Yet jatha adherence and fervour for certain personalities seems to be getting out of hand. I'm not sure you're referring to the same jatha I'm alluding to - let's not begin a guessing game - but it is a problem which, amazingly, isn't considered to be a big deal. Oh but it will be a huge deal one day. 

Totally agree, when I Chacked Amrit I felt like I would be the only one in modern day without a Jatha; (gladly I was wrong on that). Also even among members of the same Jatha getting married there is a chance of divorces still happening because of not being open-minded to any differences from each other. (Hopefully this close-mindedness dies someday or else we'll just look like a joke of a group of people to an extent that still hasn't been seen). Sometimes I feel some people take looking for Rishtas as something like middle schoolers making-up some perfect boyfriend/husband who completely agrees in every mindset. (Sadly, to anyone who still thinks like that in past 20: perfection only exists in Vaheguru, and no offense to anyone but if you think you're all that great, and even if you probably are; you aren't seated on the true throne of Guru Sahib.) Hopefully people aren't so extreme and having divorces over something comparable to putting on your right shoe first or your left shoe first, (that's how silly Jatha-fanatics are these days). 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now



  • Topics

  • Posts

    • There was a similar case of a halal meat factory was going to be opened near a UK gurdwara and eventually legal action was taken and they couldn't open it near the premises. Same thing needs to happen here, not because Sikhs cant eat meat because they can. However the hygiene and bad smell from meat shops does effect the environment. A gurdwara should be a welcoming place for vegetarians and non vegetarians. If rotting meat smells is near the Gurdwara hardly anyone is likely to come to pray, so they can file a case against such a shop being opened next to them. Further more I have also noticed pakistani muslim shops mostly restaurants opening right next to UK gurdwara sahib's. Maybe its a direct policy by zealous muslims to try and undermine non-muslim places of worship or maybe there's nothing sinister about the motives however knowing islam's history with non-muslim communities i chose to believe its often to undermine the other communities.
    • By 0 proof, I meant 0 presented. Not that you had 0. And its not like people have never lied(unfortunately) in front of Guru Granth Sahib Ji, or done much worse.  What lol? My point is we can't just have this fantasy we'll somehow pick/find 5 Singh's who all be completely pure and fix everything. A lot needs to be done before that. 
    • I think American Sikhs need to create a central Sikh body of America's where national security is priority. resolutions can be passed and create protocols so that they can be enforced. So for example defending sangat and Guru Ji would be priority but also preventing such things as stopping the anti-sikh mixed faith anand karaj beadhi that canadian and american sikh gurdwara committee's allow still. Most UK gurdwara's have no started to stop this beadhi insult to their Guru, but they have yet to implement tough security for Guru's ghar as we can see they get robbed by non-sikhs and Guru Ji is attacked. There's a private Sikh security firms in America, one is run by "goray Sikhs" called akal security. Sikhs in the west need to create a security force like this for all gurdwara's and have Sikhs on guard duty on a well paid salary to prevent beadhi and kick out undesirables who cause trouble.  
    • We have a gurdwara here with a meat shop fairly close by, no such smell in or around gurdwara. Maybe your nose is just much more sensitive, but meat shops do not leave the entire neighborhood smelling.  
    • apart from being rude can you please finally answer the question WHAT ABOUT MAI BHAGO JI?  do you deny Dasmesh Pita ji gave her khande di pahul? do you also deny he tied a dastaar on her head? do you deny purataan sakian associated with her? Are you denying the itihaas that says there were female combatants on the battlefields , spies and messengers ? Do you deny the itihaas of women's heads being cut to pass off as sikh teens for a price? (thus they had to be wearing jodey on dasam duar at least) do you denounce the goodness and Honour of all the Bibian such as Harsharan Kaur ji, Mai Bhago ji, Mai Sevan ji, Mata Kaulan ji, The singhnian who were presented to Begums of mughal officials , who were described as being muscular, dressed like men , in armourplate , carrying arms ???