5akaalsingh

The lost Sikh turban style

59 posts in this topic

Looking through historical paintings related to Punjab, in general, and Sikhs, in particular, I have encountered a turban style that looks like the patkas/keskis that small kids war but also has some similarities with dumallas. This style can be seen from very early Sikh paintings of the Gurus and also in late British paintings. The turban helmet of the Sikhs was also based on this style. I think that it stopped being used in the 1850s because the triangular shaped turban; that actually had developed as a cover for the smaller turbans; became immensely popular. 

5.JPG.c57dce4e213e250f35b817bc645eaa31.JPG58b17f11c8216_9(1).JPG.3fc7b23f351115982c44ba98f9a195b0.JPG58b17f4ce8511_adianddasamprachaar.jpg.fdcbc748e19e75cb43ad281ab2ab08b9.jpgart_Sikhs5.jpg.c10e8b6a083dedce91733f383d3dc45d.jpgkhalsa_7.jpg.b5558582a51002723db588a576312bb7.jpgempire_42.jpg.0d6c82dba564884dd9d47e52202905d3.jpg7da0daa4-ecfa-46f5-8394-e084167a11f1.jpg.8c6161e78d3f9e3411f1eda9107e7397.jpgguru_arjan_hy52.jpg.5a640e3fe05afe3e399f06d0ee680bb5.jpgold-picture-of-guru-gobind-singh-and-panj-pyare-on-baisakhi.jpg.2d642ab4c76a3fab26090b54ad2b4724.jpg58b180234e200_download(1).jpg.b09054a238b881e33484fe6cae021ea5.jpg

Edited by 5akaalsingh
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Notice the earings in some of the pics

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Singh123456777 said:

Notice the earings in some of the pics

I think earings where pretty common back then, may be a status of nobility?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, 5akaalsingh said:

I think earings where pretty common back then, may be a status of nobility?

given rehitnamey to NOT wear ornaments which involved piercings  i.e. noserings, earrings etc of Guru Sahiban I outright reject depictions of Guru Sahiban with tilaks and piercings , they had need to ape the Hindu hill rajas , and the sikh women had no need to pierce their noses as this was a sign of sexual subjugation (much like a bull's nose-ring was saying they are nothing more than animals to be led by the nose). Post Misl era the weak-minded  would have adopted the fashions of the Hindus again. Ranjit Singh is not depicted with pierced ears , neither any of the akalis ....

The artists could be just using symbology in their art to mark out the leaders , much like rennaisance painters using flowers, fruit, books, skulls to indicate holy arths  

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

given rehitnamey to NOT wear ornaments which involved piercings  i.e. noserings, earrings etc of Guru Sahiban I outright reject depictions of Guru Sahiban with tilaks and piercings , they had need to ape the Hindu hill rajas , and the sikh women had no need to pierce their noses as this was a sign of sexual subjugation (much like a bull's nose-ring was saying they are nothing more than animals to be led by the nose). Post Misl era the weak-minded  would have adopted the fashions of the Hindus again. Ranjit Singh is not depicted with pierced ears , neither any of the akalis ....

The artists could be just using symbology in their art to mark out the leaders , much like rennaisance painters using flowers, fruit, books, skulls to indicate holy arths  

According to the Short History of Sikhs by Teja Singh & Ganda Singh, they describe Guru Nanak ji as: " He wore a strange motley dress, consisting of a long ochre-coloured gown, with a white waist-band, a conical cap on his head, a garland of bones round his neck, a pair of shoes of different designs on his feet, and a saffron mark on his forehead. With such a dress there was no need for him to advertise his arrival." Even when a new Guru was crowned, Baba Buddha would apply a mark on their forehead. This is a fact. 

Bhenji, Ranjit Singh was a Sikh, however Punjabism was something that you couldn't get rid of, at least not so easily. He was superstitious and would visit gurudwaras, mandirs and mosques. 

By the way, which Rehitnama tells that? Maybe that only applied to women. There were many things that Sikhs did which some Rehitnamas didn't allow. 

OK, let's think that way. If only Indian artists drew Sikhs with earings just for symbology, then why English/foreign painters also did so? 

Akalis were special amongst Sikhs. They were fighters rather than nobles.

Guru_Arjun_Dev_being_pronounced_fifth_guru.jpg

82c6b4dace8531893123c4073298c8e3.jpg

RanjitSingh1.jpg

Edited by 5akaalsingh
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

given rehitnamey to NOT wear ornaments which involved piercings  i.e. noserings, earrings etc of Guru Sahiban I outright reject depictions of Guru Sahiban with tilaks and piercings 

That's not as pronounced as you might think in surviving rehitnamay. There are so many images going way back (including one that purports to be a contemporary one of dasmesh pita) that show earrings. 

I'm not a fan of earrings (so I'm not trying to justify it), but part of me suspects the strict injunctions against these things might be yet another Victorian British accretion into the Sikh community? Maybe via the 'amrit ceremony' they introduced for Sikhs joining their army? 

 

Edited by dallysingh101
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

That's not as pronounced as you might think in surviving rehitnamay. There are so many images going way back (including one that purports to be a contemporary one of dasmesh pita) that show earrings. 

I'm not a fan of earrings (so I'm not trying to justify it), but part of me suspects the strict injunctions against these things might be yet another Victorian British accretion into the Sikh community?

 

the rehitnamey related to this are used to denounce tatoos too. Guru Nanak would have worn simple clothes but topi? really you think that is a valid thing , there is so many creeping misrepresentations , if in Gurbani he denounced the AGhori sadhus , the wandering fakirs , the people who pierce their ears and leave home to become jogis. Why would he wear odd shoes , patchwork clothes like a beggar mendicant ... Guru ji's Bani and kirtan announced him he needed no odd sadhu bhes . Tilak of Guru gaddi is different doesn't mean they walked around applying sandalwood tilaks everyday , you can't say on one hand they are laapariwah of clothes then suddenly self-concious enough to adorn himself with bones and sandalwood tilaks it doesn't make sense. 

we know from sakhis Guru Nanak Dev ji adopted the dress of the people he was among and spoke their languages .

 

Edited by jkvlondon

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

the rehitnamey related to this are used to denounce tatoos too. Guru Nanak would have worn simple clothes but topi? really you think that is a valid thing , there is so many creeping misrepresentations , if in Gurbani he denounced the AGhori sadhus , the wandering fakirs , the people who pierce their ears and leave home to become jogis. Why would he wear odd shoes , patchwork clothes like a beggar mendicant ... Guru ji's Bani and kirtan announced him he needed no odd sadhu bhes . Tilak of Guru gaddi is different doesn't mean they walked around applying sandalwood tilaks everyday , you can't say on one hand they are laapariwah of clothes then suddenly self-concious enough to adorn himself with bones and sandalwood tilaks it doesn't make sense. 

we know from sakhis Guru Nanak Dev ji adopted the dress of the people he was among and spoke their languages .

 

All that I'm saying is that I personally believe that certain things that were non-issues for our Sikhs ancestors in the past, have now become big issues in the community.

I think a perfect example of this is earrings.

Now, I'm not a fan of grown blokes wearing earrings because it often makes them look like fags (in the day and age and the cultural context I'm in anyway) but again, from what I see, our ancestors (including Amritdhari ones) didn't have any issues with this. 

It's the same with using what I'd call 'Indic' imagery/metaphors in art (but what has now become specifically 'Hindu' as opposed to Indic). This is so common in old Sikh culture and iconography and no-one gave it a second look, but post annexation, we've got uncomfortable with such stuff. 

Look at helmets too. Prominent Singhs used to wear these to battle on top of their dastaars but somehow, this was forgotten post-annexation and only 'rediscovered in the last few decades when surviving examples popped up in exhibitions and private collections. 

Just making the point that things have changed. I'm not saying for the better or worse. But things have definitely changed, and the main catalyst for this change was British rule over Sikhs.  

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

IMG_4553.JPG

IMG_4554.JPG

IMG_4555.JPG

IMG_4556.JPG

IMG_4557.PNG

IMG_4558.JPG

IMG_4559.PNG

IMG_4604.JPG

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The first pic is a pic of Sri Guru gobind singh ji maharaj in his youth( notice the earrings)

Second pic is of Akali Baba Phula Singh(again notice the earrings)

Third pic is of Sri Guru Har Rai Sahib Ji Maharaj(earrings!!!)

Fourth pic is of Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji Maharaj(again earrings!!!)

The next two pictures are of Sri Guru Har Gobind Sahib Maharaj which are in Baba Atal Rai Gurduwara(earrings on most of the Sikhs)

The second to last picture is a picture that somebody made which depicts Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj meeting Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj(Notice that Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj is wearing earrings and Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj wearing a seli topi which was worn from the 1st Guru up until the 6th Guru)

And the last picture is of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj(earrings galore!!)

Some of these pics are contemporary pics that were made at the times of the gurus such as the Sri Guru Har Rai Sahib Ji Maharaj picture.

All the credit goes to Bhagat Singh artist who found this information

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am not for or against earrings, but I am against us being ignorant about our history. Not everything we hear from kathavachaks are true. We have to do our own research and gain knowledge about these type of things.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

That's not as pronounced as you might think in surviving rehitnamay. There are so many images going way back (including one that purports to be a contemporary one of dasmesh pita) that show earrings. 

I'm not a fan of earrings (so I'm not trying to justify it), but part of me suspects the strict injunctions against these things might be yet another Victorian British accretion into the Sikh community? Maybe via the 'amrit ceremony' they introduced for Sikhs joining their army? 

 

hmm practically speaking how can a warrior be active with huge earrings like that? How does the ear get pierced without doing the risk of roma di beadbhi? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bhagat Singh tried tying a puratan style dumala. This was most like what the gurus from the 6th guru onwards wore adorned with jewels and kalgi etc.

The second pic is an old mughal chola that the Gurus most likely wore instead of the choleys we wear now days.

IMG_4547.PNG

IMG_6058.JPG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

PS: I noticed the Sikh Awareness site is offline again. Do you know something dally or chatanga?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:

The first pic is a pic of Sri Guru gobind singh ji maharaj in his youth( notice the earrings)

Second pic is of Akali Baba Phula Singh(again notice the earrings)

Third pic is of Sri Guru Har Rai Sahib Ji Maharaj(earrings!!!)

Fourth pic is of Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji Maharaj(again earrings!!!)

The next two pictures are of Sri Guru Har Gobind Sahib Maharaj which are in Baba Atal Rai Gurduwara(earrings on most of the Sikhs)

The second to last picture is a picture that somebody made which depicts Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj meeting Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj(Notice that Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj is wearing earrings and Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj wearing a seli topi which was worn from the 1st Guru up until the 6th Guru)

And the last picture is of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj(earrings galore!!)

Some of these pics are contemporary pics that were made at the times of the gurus such as the Sri Guru Har Rai Sahib Ji Maharaj picture.

All the credit goes to Bhagat Singh artist who found this information

what about the Guru Teg Bahadur self-portrait ? does he have earrings in there? 

so do you really believe Guru Sahiban wore seli topi instead of dastaar , because of course it would be unheard of artist taking liberties to keep SIkhi niaarapan to a minimum to reframe sikhi as a bhakti movement within sanathan dharam . Besides I am sure it would be easy to claim the dating to be more ancient without the carbon dating to counter it (saving the picture from cutting/damage)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

what about the Guru Teg Bahadur self-portrait ? does he have earrings in there? 

so do you really believe Guru Sahiban wore seli topi instead of dastaar , because of course it would be unheard of artist taking liberties to keep SIkhi niaarapan to a minimum to reframe sikhi as a bhakti movement within sanathan dharam . Besides I am sure it would be easy to claim the dating to be more ancient without the carbon dating to counter it (saving the picture from cutting/damage)

There is Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji Maharaj's seli topi in kartarpur sahib so do as you wish with that.

Believe it or dont believe it, it's your choice.

Edited by Singh123456777

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well for the self portrait there are two

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Again don't kill the messenger. All I am saying is try to be a little open minded to things, cause we don't know our history as well as we should.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Seli topi of Sri Guru Arjan Dev Ji Maharaj 

IMG_7342.PNG

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:

The first pic is a pic of Sri Guru gobind singh ji maharaj in his youth( notice the earrings)

Second pic is of Akali Baba Phula Singh(again notice the earrings)

Third pic is of Sri Guru Har Rai Sahib Ji Maharaj(earrings!!!)

Fourth pic is of Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji Maharaj(again earrings!!!)

The next two pictures are of Sri Guru Har Gobind Sahib Maharaj which are in Baba Atal Rai Gurduwara(earrings on most of the Sikhs)

The second to last picture is a picture that somebody made which depicts Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj meeting Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj(Notice that Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj is wearing earrings and Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji Maharaj wearing a seli topi which was worn from the 1st Guru up until the 6th Guru)

And the last picture is of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj(earrings galore!!)

Some of these pics are contemporary pics that were made at the times of the gurus such as the Sri Guru Har Rai Sahib Ji Maharaj picture.

All the credit goes to Bhagat Singh artist who found this information

c'mon the top picture the guy has ankle bracelets on ! This is a misappropriated picture...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As the Sikhs brought the symbols of the previous Gurus before him, Guru Hargobind made it clear that he, in contrast to earlier Gurus, would mount a war horse and not resort to simply sitting as a peaceful holy man administering to the congregation on a 'manji' (bedstead). Abandoning the 'seli' (hat of silk cord) or 'topi' (silk cap) - traditional symbols of peace, he would a royal turban - the iconic symbol of a Kshatriya warrior.

 

"Manji (bedstead) is given to Guru Granth Sahib, 'seli' (hat of silk cord) to Bedis (Guru Nanak's descendants) and 'topi' (silk cap) to the ['Udasi', i.e., missionary] sadhus. I have come for the protection of the Dharma of the Vedas. Now adorn weapons on me because without weapons enemies are not suppressed. On saying like this he put on two swords."
(Gian Singh, Twarikh Guru Khalsa, First edition, (Yantar Guru Gobind Singh Press Sialkot, Babu Rajinder Singh manager, 1891),1:216)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

c'mon the top picture the guy has ankle bracelets on ! This is a misappropriated picture...

Do you know how the guru looked? A lot of ithihas has said that Guru Sahib had a lot of jewelry rings and stuff included. So how can you say it's misappropriated? There is Guru sahib's ring if you want to do darshan of it.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:

There is Sri Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji Maharaj's seli topi in kartarpur sahib so do as you wish with that.

Believe it or dont believe it, it's your choice.

brother given the fiasco of non-shastars being trooped in front of sikhs as the real deal  this past year , I do not hold such things as important because my Guru's true roop is Gurbani. I cannot see self-adornment as making one closer to conquering haumai and panj chor , and to make holes in ones flesh is not accepting hukham, runs risk of beadbhi of Rom . We are not meant to do as Guru Sahiban did but what they said . The Guru is one jot so it is the same Guru that gave advice to tie dastaar so I am convinced by that and thus makes sense that a sikh who wears a topi condemns themself to punishment . 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Don't limit the True Guru to our perceptions, cause the true guru can do whatever they want.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!


Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.


Sign In Now



  • Topics

  • Posts

    •       Why are you playing into her games?  She is being a brat.  She's the little child in the store aisles crying for a chocolate bar.  Ignore her whining and crying.  Go on with your day as a man with strength and show her you don't need her.  Flip the tables, show her, she needs you and the family.  Show her, you and your parents are one unit and will not be broken.    This has nothing to do with marrying a girl from india.  Majority of the women born and/or raised in western countries don't even know how to cook.  Forget about living with the parents after marriage.  Even if they live with the parents, they can't cook roti for the father in law, what use is such a woman, who can't cook for her husband's parents.  Might as well get a maid they are cheaper because they don't take half of your stuff.  All these western girls know is how to spend money on a face mask and body massages by men.  They will gladly take their clothes off for a massage, but will go to kill the father in law if he ask for a cooked meal.  Their priorities are all screwed up.  They gladly take their clothes off for a picture on instragram.  Why do some of these mona who are married to these western girls drink so much?  Because they are upset with themselves for marrying a sl*t.  They couldn't think straight at the time of marrying the bimbo because they were look for the wrong qualities.  Their dad warned them about marrying the girl who gives the milk for free, but they were lost in the face mask.  The grass is not greener on the other side.  If anything it's manure and second hand sloppy joe's.  You can fix your issue.  Best thing you can do is not show you are being hurt by her.  By showing you are hurt, she thinks sooner or later you will give into her demands.  Show her, you can care less of her stupid demands and are happy with living with the family.   Don't scare her or show any sign of violence or  show any sign of any weakness in you.  Many guys have been in your situation. When she ask for something, ask her to do something which she refuses to do.  She says no, walk away and ignore her request.  Children who don't eat their vegetables ask for ice cream, but smart parents don't give them ice cream till the child eats the vegetables and makes it clear, no ice cream till vegetables are done.  She has a roof over her head, bed to sleep on, and food to eat.  Anything extra she ask for is not to be provided.  You are not her servant, she needs to play an equal role in the household to be treated as an equal.  Your parents and you are not their to serve her wants and desires. 
    • Guy's this news seems to be racist but considering Socio-political environment in UK it should be okay. I remember getting stares from Londoners having this t-shirt on.
    • Yes this backwards post is a lot more professional.  Make sure to wipe the dirt off of your knees after leaving your bosses office.  What does your situation have to do with another person's issues?  NOTHING!!!! Stop your crying and whining and take off your wife's dress.  The original poster's wife doesn't want to work and wants to leave the house.  The guy wrote nothing about mother in law being anything.  Yet, you damn dress wearing men target the mother in law?  Your wife's dress is too tight for you take it off, it's making you see things.  With a weak father like you, your kids are going to turn out to be push overs, whether you leave the house or not.  You are the problem, not your dad.  Grow a pair.  If it wasn't for your parents, you wouldn't exist and neither will the fetus in your wife's belly.  Damn you are d*mb.  You must have gone to school to be this stupid, no one is this stupid without going to school for it.  The original poster wrote nothing about his family telling him to disrespect the wife.  Instead his wife is disrespecting his family by being a sloth and mentally abusing the husband into depression and sadness.  My request to you little men with wife's dresses on is to get DNA checks on whose kids you are raising. 
    • With all due respect, as long as he isn't breaking forum rules he should be free to post whatever he wishes. If Jagsaw has seen fit to create a special little enclave on this forum where he can espouse his certain brand of beliefs and delusions to a willing audience, despite being banned, anyone should be free to post whatever they feel to be suitable (within the rules), especially when being directly addressed by the creator of this thread. 
    • Isis fed baby to its mother and raped a 10-year-old girl to death in front of family, Iraqi MP claims. Extremist group have waged campaign of genocide against the minority group. http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/middle-east/isis-fed-baby-mother-raped-girl-death-family-iraqi-mp-vian-dakhil-a7811216.html?amp