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dallysingh101

95% of Sikhs living stupid lifestyle?

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Guest Jacfsing2
2 minutes ago, Sukhvirk76 said:

Dogma is irrefutable fact. So mathematics has dogmatic fact.. In meta-physics one can in some sophisticated cases express a truth which cannot be disproven and is congruent to the collective body of evidence.. (I find mool mantar a perfectly succinct expression of truth that is all encompassing whilst not dogma, for me it expresses the intellectual genius of guru sahib ). By adopting a poetic form (which by its nature requires a listener and reader to contextualise, forces the audience to undertake 'khoj' to be a sikh /seeker of gian/guru) and using ragas (which whilst having structure also demands improvisation) from  which bani cannot be separated was a conscious creative act... So as 'dur ki bani'  that transcends dogmatism of abrahamic religions ie. Islam which because of the idea it was divine and the messenger is merely a vehicle.. By using poetry and music guru sahib's expressed, encapsulated and articulated the futility of trying to find absolutes.. Whilst demonstrating through pure, heartfelt expression how we should free ourselves of lazy tropes.. Again and again in bani we are told that if we try to define, enclose and encapsulate in a dogmatic way we will fail 

So you're one of the subjective truth types?

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24 minutes ago, Sukhvirk76 said:

Dogma is irrefutable fact. So mathematics has dogmatic fact.. In meta-physics one can in some sophisticated cases express a truth which cannot be disproven and is congruent to the collective body of evidence.. (I find mool mantar a perfectly succinct expression of truth that is all encompassing whilst not dogma, for me it expresses the intellectual genius of guru sahib ). By adopting a poetic form (which by its nature requires a listener and reader to contextualise, forces the audience to undertake 'khoj' to be a sikh /seeker of gian/guru) and using ragas (which whilst having structure also demands improvisation) from  which bani cannot be separated was a conscious creative act... So as 'dur ki bani'  that transcends dogmatism of abrahamic religions ie. Islam which because of the idea it was divine and the messenger is merely a vehicle.. By using poetry and music guru sahib's expressed, encapsulated and articulated the futility of trying to find absolutes.. Whilst demonstrating through pure, heartfelt expression how we should free ourselves of lazy tropes.. Again and again in bani we are told that if we try to define, enclose and encapsulate in a dogmatic way we will fail 

Do you believe that in certain instances a certain form of religious dogma is necessary to lend structure and support to what might be described as intangible and abstract truths steeped in theoretical idealism? Also, what's your belief regarding a certain type of dogma being utilised to promote Sikh interests on occasions when Sikhs are under the cosh, as it were, i.e. a survival and longevity tactic? 

Edited by MisterrSingh
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3 minutes ago, Sukhvirk76 said:

I definitely don't believe religious dogma is necessary in fact for that matter any type of dogma unless verifiable ie. Mathematics is acceptable. If we want to rely on 'religious dogma' and just accept what we are told is truth what is the point of 'khoj', what is the point of having a guru to educate and develop from, how are we sikh, seeking shishya, we can just pretend to understand, just memorise and repeat, ritualise without ever searching 

In theory, yes, I agree. But you place too much emphasis in something as fallible and unreliable as human nature. The 'truth seeking' you refer to is indisputably a considerable constituent of what defines a Sikh, but let's be honest, how many of our people follow the faith not out of a conscious decision taken after weighing up the pros and cons of following other viable faiths and paths, but because they were born into a community belonging to that particular faith? Such easily herded people aren't interested in khoj, or anything that requires introspection. They want salvation in the most effort-free manner possible. It's in those type of individually-centred scenarios that I believe your ideas are more than meritorious. Where I differ with you is when it comes to subject of the masses, namely when it comes to safeguarding the interests of a bloc or a mass of like-minded people, and if that means working with the stark, occasionally undesirable reality of a situation, as opposed to its idealised variant, then I do believe tough decisions must be made for the greater good. 

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15 minutes ago, Sukhvirk76 said:

The truth is eternal, akaal does not need defending. As Sikhs our gurus taught us to be selfless and altruistic, if we politicise bani, manipulating it and bending it to temporal needs we subvert the very essence of the message.. 

 Fair play is only possible when both sides adhere to the rules of a game. If one side plays dirty, whilst the other clings to a code of ethics and morals, then does one hurtle knowingly into oblivion?

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12 minutes ago, Sukhvirk76 said:

Surely the idea that we should manipulate the doctrine because we think we know better is the 'original sin'  may be the idea that 'i' am enlightened and the 'other' is wrong or weak is a contradiction. If someone does namaz five times a day or wears janeau or Amrit shaks, waves a banner of self-righteousness because it is a badge of honour as opposed to having a true..  altruistic belief, and faith. Nirbhau, nirvair... Surely our desire to want to control and capture is a reflection on us as opposed to those who we seek to 'reform' ultimate display of 'krodh' ego.. 

I think we're coming at this from completely different perspectives. My desire is to protect, not to control or distort. Again, you're applying idealised, perfectionist methods to people and situations that are the complete antithesis of such behaviour. You aren't acknowledging the base attributes of human nature that must be taken into account. You're ascribing godly qualities to ungodly situations and individuals. If anything, that indicates a fear of taking tough decisions that are at odds with a mentally soothing sense of self-righteousness; at worst it's sticking one's head in the sand and hoping for the best. I apologise if that's not the case, but from my experience those who espouse beliefs of non-action in the face of a threat or a decline, do so not due to any concrete conviction, but because they are riddled with fear. I'm not applying that to you, of course.

 

25 minutes ago, Sukhvirk76 said:

When the kashmiri brahmins tested guru tegh bahadur ji to see if he really believed in altruism he demonstrated it with the ultimate sacrifice. Who are we to argue with that? 

So we should immolate ourselves on the bonfire of our beliefs and convictions until we've completely destroyed ourselves, to prevent the enemy from doing so? 

From a spiritual perspective, Guru Tegh Bahadhur sacrificing himself is a wildly different scenario to a fella from Cornwall doing the same thing. To understand why requires a conversation that occurs on a level beyond conservative rationalism.

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Guest Jacfsing2
2 hours ago, Sukhvirk76 said:

Please expand upon what you mean by 'subjective truth types'.. Forgive me I'm a real pedant. 

Are you suggesting that you are not subjective? And your truth is and understanding is objective..? 

 

 

Truth isn't truth because you want to believe it to be true, truth is truth regardless. What do you mean I'm subjective, I've never called myself truth, the truth is Guru Sahib; I'm just a Paapi without him.

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Going back to the OP. Do people think we've become weak bhangra paa-ing clowns now? Is the author of the video right in his statement regarding the Delhi Sikh men who were massacred because they'd failed to live up to the physical/military aspects of the Sikh way of life?

I've experienced that demeaning thing where someone finds out you are Sikh and points their fingers in the air, moves their shoulders up and down and goes 'balle balle'. 

Do you think people actually see us as warriors when they meet us in the west? Or sticklers to an archaic religion/way of life? (in their eyes not mine!)

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2 hours ago, CHaamCHrick said:

Well, if they don't, then there is definitely somefink wrong with their eyes, I'd say. A Sikh is never to be mistaken for an ordinary civilian ever.  He/she is a warrior first and a civilian after.  A lion or a lioness first always.

Come on man. Be realistic. On the ground, how many weak apnay and apneean have we got? 

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5 minutes ago, Sukhvirk76 said:

When bhai khaniya ji gave water to enemy soldiers he was praised by guru sahib for living to the higher principles of sikhi.. If we politicise our actions and say 'well we are under threat so need to be pragmatic', does this mean that we can pick and choose which parts of gurmat to uphold at anyone time? 

You can't hide from the fact that during the havoc of the 1700s, Sikhs did act VERY pragmatically to counteract threats to their existence. By this I mean they organised themselves dynamically. Had no problem in identifying who the enemy was. Made and broke alliances as best suited the situation. Carefully selected which battles to take part in and which not, strategically allowing one enemy party to weaken/destroy another enemy. Were harsh and severe when required. All this led to their emerging as leaders in the power vacuum that followed all the invasions that took place. Here one of the Sikh leaders emerged as a powerhouse and established the security and prosperity of the region, albeit ruthlessly - a prosperity which may well have continued to this day had the Anglos not turned up and attacked and robbed the place blind. 

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43 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

Ignore this, dallsingh. The forum's being a pain in the behind again.

 

55 minutes ago, Sukhvirk76 said:

When bhai khaniya ji gave water to enemy soldiers he was praised by guru sahib for living to the higher principles of sikhi.. If we politicise our actions and say 'well we are under threat so need to be pragmatic', does this mean that we can pick and choose which parts of gurmat to uphold at anyone time? 

I think we've reached an impasse. Funnily enough I don't disagree with any of the fundamentals of what you've stated. Where we happen to differ is on the details; you have an admirable belief in human nature pertaining to the subject of religious adherence, whereas I believe a considerable dose of pragmatism is required to navigate the choppy waters of religious practice. It's all good as far as I'm concerned. Nice to have a grown-up, fair discussion with someone on this site that doesn't result in someone insulting your mother or claiming you suffer from a mental illness for daring to hold a different opinion. 

Edited by MisterrSingh

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However there is a huge difference between the misl period of sikh history and today.. I don't see a correlation..? 

I do, both periods are ones when we are in a weak position and need to secure ourselves, politically, physically and spiritually against people who (despite today's superficial outward appearances) don't want us to have our own powerbase from which to project ourselves. Both periods have people who want to destroy us, previously through crude, overt clear military means, whereas today it is through assimilation and controlling or influencing our institutes to suit their own cultural-political agenda, where in a few generations we turn into brown white people (mentally and culturally speaking).

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12 minutes ago, Sukhvirk76 said:

It's good to talk bro! I normally get shouted out of the discussion as some enemy of the panth or worse still a RSS spy! I'm here to learn and hear opinions I've never considered.. Having open honest discussions to expand the mind and challenge my own assumptions has to be a good thing I reckon? SSA

Same here, bro. So much to learn, so little time. We'll get there, God willing. 

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9 hours ago, Sukhvirk76 said:

Are we really that threatened today as the quam was during the misl period.. There was a concerted effort in that period to remove all traces of the quam, if we as a community 'batten down the hatches' in response to right wing hindutva influences who seek to assimilate and become reductive and our sikhi becomes nothing about bani and everything about identity politics.. We will become just another group caught up in barricading ourselves in around inconsequential false tropes.. Instead of remembering the transcendental message that guru nanak ji articulated.. Where is our 'chardi kala' even if someone like Hitler came along to wipe sikhi from the face of the earth the effort would be fruitless.. The truth expressed in bani will always be 

What is brown white mentality to be afraid of? 

I think your attitude is reductionist to the whole situation :

1. it is not just assaults on our history to rewrite it so our Guru Sahiban become common criminals , our sacrifices nothing 

2. it's the constant drip drip undermining of our Maaboli , our culture : what the Anglos started by burning our literature and kaide the Brahmins are manipulating by making people think Punjabi is backwards as a language and thus the people ... when the truth is we were a serious threat to their vice-like grip on spiritual and temporal knowledge

3. it the stealing of vital flow water , which is illegal under international law and the fact that no money has been given in compensation means ripping off the kaum twice . The usage of borewells to cover the desperate lack of water means we have been forced into signing our own economic and physical deaths (cancer from uranium pollution)

4.  Ask the tibetans about about the problems of outsiders trying to annihilate your culture through physical destruction, faith interference (kidnap of llamas), rape of womenfolk (much like shudikaran in Punjab), removal of religious historical texts (like loot of Sikh Library Amritsar), land grabs (sikhs in Rajasthan, Gujrat and elsewhere), disappearences of youths intent on supporting and rebuilding the faith , they've been through what we have and they do not feel it is identity politics but simple genocide of a people . The only way they could survive is to send their children to walk for three weeks through the mountains to safe haven in Dharamshala where they are reviving the old skills and ways through apprenticeships in art, calligraphy, dance, folklore, faith workshops and history lessons. They are getting busy rebuilding and making their future on solid foundations. what you are kind of saying it don't matter what's so wrong in a brown white mentality . Being a coconut means you lose connection to your true heritage and at the same time gain nothing from the new group you have joined as they see you as weak and not worthy.

 

It is more than just an identity , being a sikh - is a knowing of where you belong, a striving to be the best servant of the panth and Guru ji , a fearlessness to show Guru ji does not make mistakes that a Gursikh is created with intention to make the world a better place for all.

 

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Are the Indians smart enough to enact all of the above, bhenji? I don't, for one moment, doubt any of your keenly observed points, but have they the intellectual wherewithal to design and implement such a plan, that will take generations to come to fruition, in order to suppress, subvert, demoralise, and ultimately destroy an entire faith and its followers? Those street-5hitting, wealth and status obsessed Indians have the nous for all that? I don't know, I think we need to look a lot closer to home for the culprits who are enabling our decline. When it comes to governmental policies designed to hamstring Sikhs, then I agree, but what of the other social and everyday issues that aren't affected by the devious hand of the state? That's all on us, surely?

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