95% of Sikhs living stupid lifestyle?

[MisterrSingh]

6 hours ago, Sukhvirk76 said:

I feel what you are saying but surely the coalescing of abrahamic dogmatism is just as much as a threat? 

The thing is dogmatism isn't the exclusive preserve of the Abrahamic faiths. It's human nature that's afforded a certain type of legitimacy by religious conviction (I'm not saying it's right), in my opinion. Christianity, Judaism, etc., weren't in existence when Hinduism was decreeing who was pure and unpure based on their social status, etc. That's the worst form of dogma. 

[Guest]

I think we're forgetting one important thing here : The mind condition of normal humans . Unless you're sant, we're all stuck in 5 vikaars and its various manifestations.

In this day and age, it becomes tough to be gursikh with rehat and not to waver , because there's more people out there to waver you and less to keep you stable. Friends these days would rather offer you alcohol and help you "try it" rather than tell you "don't drink/smoke bro, its not good for health". All of this passes in name of 'punjabi culture' and peer pressure . 

I myself have at times wavered. Maya puts its very strange magnetic effect on people, its hard to describe . So keeping all the "fun" aside (gidda, bhangra, drinks, parties) and expecting them to live a purer , elevated lifestyle and where fruits of it are not foreseen .Most people are simply not ready for that ! 

We would rather get immediate short-lived joy from the aforementioned things rather than doing bhagti and rehatvaan jeevan and promise of "forever-lasting parmanand". Its hard for most of us to believe in, unfortunately  

PS: BTW, its not just sikhs, almost every other religion is facing same in modern day society. I keep coming across swamis, mullahs and pastors who keep complaining of how their flock don't follow it anymore ! 

 

CURE : Wet clay can be fashioned easily, if you try to alter a baked pot, it will break, but it can't be changed. Kids are the only place you can sensibly invest your time in. Don't expect change from grown ups ! I have personally seen kids raised proper gursikh life and they're amritdhari and living modern day lifestyle side by side and there's no conflict ! these kids don't waver. 

[MisterrSingh]

4 hours ago, Sukhvirk76 said:

Manusmritri was actually quite a late development in hindu literature. http://www.dailyo.in/lifestyle/hindus-manu-dharmashastra-manusmriti-vedas-devdutt-pattanaik-mythology/story/1/15412.html

 

True, but it had genuine precedence in scriptures which definitely were as old as the hills. The Brahmins may have collated and enforced a set of teachings relatively recently, but those teachings originate from a prior period. The Brahmins can claim they "only" meant to document various practices, but its purpose was more than that: to allow them dominance over a social hierarchy. My original assertion stands: dogma is human nature lent conviction through theology.

[jkvlondon]

On 05/02/2017 at 11:51 AM, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

I think we're forgetting one important thing here : The mind condition of normal humans . Unless you're sant, we're all stuck in 5 vikaars and its various manifestations.

In this day and age, it becomes tough to be gursikh with rehat and not to waver , because there's more people out there to waver you and less to keep you stable. Friends these days would rather offer you alcohol and help you "try it" rather than tell you "don't drink/smoke bro, its not good for health". All of this passes in name of 'punjabi culture' and peer pressure . 

I myself have at times wavered. Maya puts its very strange magnetic effect on people, its hard to describe . So keeping all the "fun" aside (gidda, bhangra, drinks, parties) and expecting them to live a purer , elevated lifestyle and where fruits of it are not foreseen .Most people are simply not ready for that ! 

We would rather get immediate short-lived joy from the aforementioned things rather than doing bhagti and rehatvaan jeevan and promise of "forever-lasting parmanand". Its hard for most of us to believe in, unfortunately  

PS: BTW, its not just sikhs, almost every other religion is facing same in modern day society. I keep coming across swamis, mullahs and pastors who keep complaining of how their flock don't follow it anymore ! 

 

CURE : Wet clay can be fashioned easily, if you try to alter a baked pot, it will break, but it can't be changed. Kids are the only place you can sensibly invest your time in. Don't expect change from grown ups ! I have personally seen kids raised proper gursikh life and they're amritdhari and living modern day lifestyle side by side and there's no conflict ! these kids don't waver. 

Baljit SIngh (BOS) put it like this : SIkhi is like licking a stone , for many there is no reward of sweet taste but that doesn't mean don't try to do your best to keep rehit . The rewards will come ...

I find that those kids who get sikhi into the hearts and bones will not waver as adult because it is so enmeshed with their personalities and outlook and if they have been taught well it will be unconsciously present , so no haumai about it . 

[MisterrSingh]

On 07/02/2017 at 10:34 AM, Sukhvirk76 said:

Mathematical truth is dogma. True some theological traditions present things as absolutes. However dharmic religions don't really do that, there are not absolutes. I personally think abrahamic lean more towards this as in those traditions the idea of divine revelation is central. Within sikhi bani, is written in a poetic form and set to raags, which acts as a inbuilt check and balance against absolutism and dogmatism 

Really interesting points, particularly your first assertion. Are you viewing the term dogma as a pejorative? The word itself perhaps does lend itself, quite naturally, to a sense of inflexibility, but surely mathematical dogma is fact, as opposed to the other kind, which is an interpretation based on individual (or collective), personal judgement? I guess I should amend my definition of dogma to a narrower version in regards to the concept of faith, and just leave maths out of it, lol.

Could you expand on your idea of poetry and raags being safeguards against misinterpretation?

[Guest Jacfsing2]

2 minutes ago, Sukhvirk76 said:

Dogma is irrefutable fact. So mathematics has dogmatic fact.. In meta-physics one can in some sophisticated cases express a truth which cannot be disproven and is congruent to the collective body of evidence.. (I find mool mantar a perfectly succinct expression of truth that is all encompassing whilst not dogma, for me it expresses the intellectual genius of guru sahib ). By adopting a poetic form (which by its nature requires a listener and reader to contextualise, forces the audience to undertake 'khoj' to be a sikh /seeker of gian/guru) and using ragas (which whilst having structure also demands improvisation) from  which bani cannot be separated was a conscious creative act... So as 'dur ki bani'  that transcends dogmatism of abrahamic religions ie. Islam which because of the idea it was divine and the messenger is merely a vehicle.. By using poetry and music guru sahib's expressed, encapsulated and articulated the futility of trying to find absolutes.. Whilst demonstrating through pure, heartfelt expression how we should free ourselves of lazy tropes.. Again and again in bani we are told that if we try to define, enclose and encapsulate in a dogmatic way we will fail 

So you're one of the subjective truth types?

[MisterrSingh]

24 minutes ago, Sukhvirk76 said:

Dogma is irrefutable fact. So mathematics has dogmatic fact.. In meta-physics one can in some sophisticated cases express a truth which cannot be disproven and is congruent to the collective body of evidence.. (I find mool mantar a perfectly succinct expression of truth that is all encompassing whilst not dogma, for me it expresses the intellectual genius of guru sahib ). By adopting a poetic form (which by its nature requires a listener and reader to contextualise, forces the audience to undertake 'khoj' to be a sikh /seeker of gian/guru) and using ragas (which whilst having structure also demands improvisation) from  which bani cannot be separated was a conscious creative act... So as 'dur ki bani'  that transcends dogmatism of abrahamic religions ie. Islam which because of the idea it was divine and the messenger is merely a vehicle.. By using poetry and music guru sahib's expressed, encapsulated and articulated the futility of trying to find absolutes.. Whilst demonstrating through pure, heartfelt expression how we should free ourselves of lazy tropes.. Again and again in bani we are told that if we try to define, enclose and encapsulate in a dogmatic way we will fail 

Do you believe that in certain instances a certain form of religious dogma is necessary to lend structure and support to what might be described as intangible and abstract truths steeped in theoretical idealism? Also, what's your belief regarding a certain type of dogma being utilised to promote Sikh interests on occasions when Sikhs are under the cosh, as it were, i.e. a survival and longevity tactic? 

[MisterrSingh]

3 minutes ago, Sukhvirk76 said:

I definitely don't believe religious dogma is necessary in fact for that matter any type of dogma unless verifiable ie. Mathematics is acceptable. If we want to rely on 'religious dogma' and just accept what we are told is truth what is the point of 'khoj', what is the point of having a guru to educate and develop from, how are we sikh, seeking shishya, we can just pretend to understand, just memorise and repeat, ritualise without ever searching 

In theory, yes, I agree. But you place too much emphasis in something as fallible and unreliable as human nature. The 'truth seeking' you refer to is indisputably a considerable constituent of what defines a Sikh, but let's be honest, how many of our people follow the faith not out of a conscious decision taken after weighing up the pros and cons of following other viable faiths and paths, but because they were born into a community belonging to that particular faith? Such easily herded people aren't interested in khoj, or anything that requires introspection. They want salvation in the most effort-free manner possible. It's in those type of individually-centred scenarios that I believe your ideas are more than meritorious. Where I differ with you is when it comes to subject of the masses, namely when it comes to safeguarding the interests of a bloc or a mass of like-minded people, and if that means working with the stark, occasionally undesirable reality of a situation, as opposed to its idealised variant, then I do believe tough decisions must be made for the greater good. 

[MisterrSingh]

15 minutes ago, Sukhvirk76 said:

The truth is eternal, akaal does not need defending. As Sikhs our gurus taught us to be selfless and altruistic, if we politicise bani, manipulating it and bending it to temporal needs we subvert the very essence of the message.. 

 Fair play is only possible when both sides adhere to the rules of a game. If one side plays dirty, whilst the other clings to a code of ethics and morals, then does one hurtle knowingly into oblivion?

[MisterrSingh]

12 minutes ago, Sukhvirk76 said:

Surely the idea that we should manipulate the doctrine because we think we know better is the 'original sin'  may be the idea that 'i' am enlightened and the 'other' is wrong or weak is a contradiction. If someone does namaz five times a day or wears janeau or Amrit shaks, waves a banner of self-righteousness because it is a badge of honour as opposed to having a true..  altruistic belief, and faith. Nirbhau, nirvair... Surely our desire to want to control and capture is a reflection on us as opposed to those who we seek to 'reform' ultimate display of 'krodh' ego.. 

I think we're coming at this from completely different perspectives. My desire is to protect, not to control or distort. Again, you're applying idealised, perfectionist methods to people and situations that are the complete antithesis of such behaviour. You aren't acknowledging the base attributes of human nature that must be taken into account. You're ascribing godly qualities to ungodly situations and individuals. If anything, that indicates a fear of taking tough decisions that are at odds with a mentally soothing sense of self-righteousness; at worst it's sticking one's head in the sand and hoping for the best. I apologise if that's not the case, but from my experience those who espouse beliefs of non-action in the face of a threat or a decline, do so not due to any concrete conviction, but because they are riddled with fear. I'm not applying that to you, of course.

 

25 minutes ago, Sukhvirk76 said:

When the kashmiri brahmins tested guru tegh bahadur ji to see if he really believed in altruism he demonstrated it with the ultimate sacrifice. Who are we to argue with that? 

So we should immolate ourselves on the bonfire of our beliefs and convictions until we've completely destroyed ourselves, to prevent the enemy from doing so? 

From a spiritual perspective, Guru Tegh Bahadhur sacrificing himself is a wildly different scenario to a fella from Cornwall doing the same thing. To understand why requires a conversation that occurs on a level beyond conservative rationalism.