Jump to content
Guest guest singh

does sikhi permit use of contraception with own wife

Recommended Posts

jkvlondon    3,536
8 hours ago, Guest Kadeykadey said:

And you should be the last one to be preaching over here!  There is no evidence of homos either during that time!  What a hypocrite. Heteros had too many kids 'cos all they had in those days was bedroom entertainment and nothing else.  Bollywood and television entertainment were not invented till recently to keep their pathetically lazy and useless minds occupied. Let's face it, how many people in those days could read or write with Punjabi blood running in their veins? They never could read newspapers, novels, medical journals or even a simple comic in those days, could they? Their unoccupied minds ran wild, created havoc at every moment of their lives.  Contraception  became extremely important to stop producing unwanted army of hooligans meaning unruly, unwanted kids!  Some kids never even went to school if they were born in a pennd. All sex is lust therefore should only be used in an emergency like when couples want to have a child to increase the size of their family. Honestly you are such a hypocrite. 

 

maybe you should stop talking , your brain is escaping from your mouth , sikhs of Guru ji's time had big families and were vidhvaan of high order as well as warriors Bhai Mati Das's family had so many shaheeds how comes your theory doesn't count them as hooligans too ...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest Jacfsing2   
Guest Jacfsing2
8 hours ago, Guest Kadeykadey said:

And you should be the last one to be preaching over here!  There is no evidence of homos either during that time!  What a hypocrite. Heteros had too many kids 'cos all they had in those days was bedroom entertainment and nothing else.  Bollywood and television entertainment were not invented till recently to keep their pathetically lazy and useless minds occupied. Let's face it, how many people in those days could read or write with Punjabi blood running in their veins? They never could read newspapers, novels, medical journals or even a simple comic in those days, could they? Their unoccupied minds ran wild, created havoc at every moment of their lives.  Contraception  became extremely important to stop producing unwanted army of hooligans meaning unruly, unwanted kids!  Some kids never even went to school if they were born in a pennd. All sex is lust therefore should only be used in an emergency like when couples want to have a child to increase the size of their family. Honestly you are such a hypocrite. 

Honestly you sound like a buffon. People didn't have kids cause they were bored; they had kids because in those days the idea was both to keep your legacy alive as well as keep the Sikh population high from birth rates and conversion, (neither of which happens enough now days).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 20/02/2017 at 8:17 PM, Guest Kadeykadey said:

And you should be the last one to be preaching over here!  There is no evidence of homos either during that time!  What a hypocrite. Heteros had too many kids 'cos all they had in those days was bedroom entertainment and nothing else.  Bollywood and television entertainment were not invented till recently to keep their pathetically lazy and useless minds occupied. Let's face it, how many people in those days could read or write with Punjabi blood running in their veins? They never could read newspapers, novels, medical journals or even a simple comic in those days, could they? Their unoccupied minds ran wild, created havoc at every moment of their lives.  Contraception  became extremely important to stop producing unwanted army of hooligans meaning unruly, unwanted kids!  Some kids never even went to school if they were born in a pennd. All sex is lust therefore should only be used in an emergency like when couples want to have a child to increase the size of their family. Honestly you are such a hypocrite. 

 

I stopped reading you after the line in bold ! Homos always were, are and always will be ! Quran and bible both mention homosexuality , albeit forbiddingly, but hey it mentions it ! Homos back then were single or married women. They might have been some of the best pracharaks and dedicated to guru because they didn't have any family obligation.

HOMOS Definitely existed before all the bullsh*t religions that condemn us and will continue existing after all religions are dead and long gone ! 

Truth triumps in the end ! 

PS: The fact that gurbani doesn't mention homosexuality is evidence of the fact that 

1) gurbani only deals with spiritual theme

2) Sexuality is irrelevant to spiritual growth

3) Gurus didn't condemn or condone it, but remained neutral . 

Are you saying guru ji were not aware of 'kateb' (collective term for abrahamic religions books) where homosexuality is clearly mentioned ?

In other active thread someone wondering reasons of downfall for sikh masses, well homophobia like yours is the one ! 

Edited by AjeetSinghPunjabi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Akalifauj    792
33 minutes ago, HarkiranKaur said:

 

Intimacy with husband and wife goes way beyond sexual pleasure. There is a reason the Gurus encouraged gristi jiwan. Sexual union is way more than physical. It's literally the merging of two souls into one as spiritual energy is shared between them. It's a part of being husband and wife. Procreation is only one reason for it and certainly it's up to the couple how many children they want or can afford. But just because family planning is done does not mean the husband and wife then part ways physically and become as brother and sister? In Gurbani marriage (and even sexual union) are used as metaphors because its the closest thing we can understand to our merging with akal purakh. When we merge with our spouse, we are living out that metaphor and it can be (in right circumstances and not done for mere physical pleasure) a deeply spiritual event. However outside marriage its too simple to just say this is paap that is paap. It's deeper than that. It's harmful spiritually because spiritual energy is exchanged / shared between the couple. So its not like abrahamic religions that say fire and brimstone if you do this or dont do that. For Sikhs hell is being separated from Akal Purakh Waheguru. And by mingling many spiritual energies and that too for only physical pleasure, its only us who lose out in the end because it brings us further away from our goal and hence that is the hell. But to answer the OP, yes contraception is fine in a committed marriage. Celebacy is not advocated in marriage by any of the Gurus. If a couple has finished family planning then they are not expected to just stop being intimate with each other. Or else IVF can become the new norm. Why even bother with sex at all if you can make a baby in a test tube and the couple never has to touch each other at all!  In fact, asceticism is actively spoken against in Gurbani. There is no rule that I am aware of in any rehet maryada in existence that says otherwise (but correct me if I am wrong). 

 

Present Gurbani which says husband and wife sexual relations is a spiritual experience.

Edited by Akalifauj
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
singhbj singh    1,179

According to Gurus, the woman was the true faith. Once Guru Hargobind chanced to meet Jehangir, a disciple of Daulai Shah who said to him

Aurat kya aur faqiri kya, Hindu kya aur Piri kya?
Puttar kya vairag kya, daulat kya or tyag kya.?
(Woman and mendicancy do not go together as a Hindu and Pir 
(Divine); a son and detachment; wealth and renunciation).

Guruji advised him that the woman you ridicule keeps the moral character high:

Aurat Iman, daulat guzran, puttar nishan,
Faqir na Hindu na Musalman.
(A woman is the faith, wealth is for a living, a son continues the lineage and a Faqir is neither a Hindu nor a Musalman).

Of course the Sikh faith forbids cohabitation with ‘other’ women so that man should not decline morally.

"Sudh jab te ham dhari bachan Guru diaye hamarai.
Poot eh pran tohi, pran jab lag ghat tharai.
Nij nari sang neh tum nit badhaiyoh.
Parnari ki sage bhool supnai hoon na jaiyiho" - Dasam Granth

(When I came of age, my father-Guru told me to take a vow - to be kept throughout my life- to love my wedded wife always and not to go to another woman’s bed erroneously even in a dream).

Source - http://www.jawadditaksal.org/imageofwoman.php

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Akalifauj    792
1 hour ago, singhbj singh said:

"Sudh jab te ham dhari bachan Guru diaye hamarai.
Poot eh pran tohi, pran jab lag ghat tharai.
Nij nari sang neh tum nit badhaiyoh.
Parnari ki sage bhool supnai hoon na jaiyiho" - Dasam Granth

(When I came of age, my father-Guru told me to take a vow - to be kept throughout my life- to love my wedded wife always and not to go to another woman’s bed erroneously even in a dream).

Source - http://www.jawadditaksal.org/imageofwoman.php

Can you bring a reference to what sang means in Gurmat terms.  Literal meaning of sang is company, yet in english you mistranslate to say love.  If you were trying to adapt the union of one owns woman with thee man to the other side of the coin of never going to another woman's bed even in dreams.  This would mean to translate sang as lust in english because going to another woman's bed in dreams is all about lust and the later is being prescribed by the Guru according to your beliefs.  But obvoiusly we have Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib jis bani to shine more light on this teaching.  Satguru says not to lust and attach yourself to family, including wife.  So it can't be lust and it also can't be love because love is attachment when speaking about wife. Gurbani read as lavan as man and wife get married says nothing about loving your wife as you have so carelessly put it.  Worldly love is not approved in Gurbani.  Instead the lavan describe the journey the soul takes on the path to the Guru.  First lav says to let go of the vedas the praise to brahma.  Gurbani says the vedas are stuck in the 3 gunas and dont know the fourth state.  The 3 gunas are maya and this includes lust love and attachment.  Contemplating over the lavan a person can easily understand the meaning of "sang" in the wisdom sri guru tegh bahadur sahib ji passed on to sri guru gobind singh ji at a young age. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, HarkiranKaur said:

 

Intimacy with husband and wife goes way beyond sexual pleasure. There is a reason the Gurus encouraged gristi jiwan. Sexual union is way more than physical. It's literally the merging of two souls into one as spiritual energy is shared between them. It's a part of being husband and wife. Procreation is only one reason for it and certainly it's up to the couple how many children they want or can afford. But just because family planning is done does not mean the husband and wife then part ways physically and become as brother and sister? In Gurbani marriage (and even sexual union) are used as metaphors because its the closest thing we can understand to our merging with akal purakh. When we merge with our spouse, we are living out that metaphor and it can be (in right circumstances and not done for mere physical pleasure) a deeply spiritual event. However outside marriage its too simple to just say this is paap that is paap. It's deeper than that. It's harmful spiritually because spiritual energy is exchanged / shared between the couple. So its not like abrahamic religions that say fire and brimstone if you do this or dont do that. For Sikhs hell is being separated from Akal Purakh Waheguru. And by mingling many spiritual energies and that too for only physical pleasure, its only us who lose out in the end because it brings us further away from our goal and hence that is the hell. But to answer the OP, yes contraception is fine in a committed marriage. Celebacy is not advocated in marriage by any of the Gurus. If a couple has finished family planning then they are not expected to just stop being intimate with each other. Or else IVF can become the new norm. Why even bother with sex at all if you can make a baby in a test tube and the couple never has to touch each other at all!  In fact, asceticism is actively spoken against in Gurbani. There is no rule that I am aware of in any rehet maryada in existence that says otherwise (but correct me if I am wrong). 

 

You do realize that gurbani says nothing about physical sex and spirituality ? except lust.

Even in 'laava' verses recited in anand karaj, it talks of union of soul (bride ) and god (groom) . 

Yes it uses metaphors but those metaphors don't point to humans husband and wife, but rather to soul as bride and god as husband.

In whole of laava, not once is there an indication of marriage happening between a man and wife .

Also, soul has no gender . So , it beggers again "Why is heterosexual intimacy and more "spiritual" than gay intimacy who truly love each other ?"

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Preeet said:

Exactly, it makes me kinda confused on how in some Gurbani lines it talks about sadhus leaving their wives but then they still keep thinking of women in their mind as a sadhu.. Can the same thing be said for gay people who try to 'leave' the marriage concept while becoming celibate & 'dharmic', but still think of guys? So does that not mean that they should get married as well.... bhul chuk maff kijye

which gurbani lines you referring to ? please post. 

Also I don't think anywhere any of bhagat, guru ji or bhatts baanis refer to women in any sexual way at all ! 

It is just example to help us understand jeev-aatma (often referred to as 'jeev-istree' in sikh literature) relationship with param-aatma (god) . 

Since we have no inkling of what relationship to god feels like , those who have felt it have tried to pen it in comparison to earthly relationships we do understand ! and what more intimate relation than that of a spouse ! 

In Gurbani , at places, baani sometimes go along the lines of "Dear sister, tell me how you impressed your husband ? ... he doesn't like me, but likes you, tell me how you impressed ...." something along these lines ! and final closing line is of joy of how the wife finally impresses her husband and the typical shabad would close so ".. and then he came to bed and finally I enjoyed him ... " .. 

I think I have read atleast one such shabad although I don't remember which exactly. but trust me, there's no sexual undercurrent in this shabad AT ALL ! it just helps us relate to our bodiless relationship with creator (something we don't understand) by comparing it to a relationship of intimacy that we do understand and often live ! 

Same can be said of krishna and gopis in hindu literature. Some say krishna had 16500 wives. Its not possible literally ! so again a hidden metaphor . Gopis revolving around krishna in play dance. Trust me, this often gets sexualized, but subtle metaphor is lost, namely that of souls (gopis) enjoying the spiritual bliss of krishna (god) and all of creation revolving around the creator.

Rigveda and some upanishads mention the relationship of soul (jeev) and parbrahm as such : 

"On a tree bearing multiple fruits, both bitter and sweet, sits two birds of a kind, eternal companions.

One , of golden plume and luminous sits serenly on topmost branch, unperturbed and in bliss.

On the lower branches, jumping from branch to branch, is its companion, who sometimes eat sweet fruits and sometimes bitter. 

When it eats bitter fruits, it sometimes looks up and see its undisturbed , blissed companion of golden feathers. However , it soons forget its sorrows and starts eating sweet and bitter again . 

Sometimes, again it eats bitter and this time flies on top branch , approaches the golden plume companion and when it goes very near, it realizes its golden plume is itself only, its inner-most self, the atma !"

 

 the tree refers to body or world, the golden plume companion is the real self, the bird moving from here and there is jeev . the bitter and sweet fruits are dukh and sukh respectively which we bear in this world. When the bird goes on top branch (higher avastha) , it realizes its own self, and attains liberation and bliss, which gurbaani refers to as "mann tu jot saroop hai, apna mool pachaan" 

Quite good example these seers made ! many such metaphors throughout in gurbani also. 

The bigger question is "Can we believe ? truly?"

Edited by AjeetSinghPunjabi
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
singhbj singh    1,179
9 hours ago, Akalifauj said:

Can you bring a reference to what sang means in Gurmat terms.  Literal meaning of sang is company, yet in english you mistranslate to say love.  If you were trying to adapt the union of one owns woman with thee man to the other side of the coin of never going to another woman's bed even in dreams.  This would mean to translate sang as lust in english because going to another woman's bed in dreams is all about lust and the later is being prescribed by the Guru according to your beliefs.  But obvoiusly we have Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib jis bani to shine more light on this teaching.  Satguru says not to lust and attach yourself to family, including wife.  So it can't be lust and it also can't be love because love is attachment when speaking about wife. Gurbani read as lavan as man and wife get married says nothing about loving your wife as you have so carelessly put it.  Worldly love is not approved in Gurbani.  Instead the lavan describe the journey the soul takes on the path to the Guru.  First lav says to let go of the vedas the praise to brahma.  Gurbani says the vedas are stuck in the 3 gunas and dont know the fourth state.  The 3 gunas are maya and this includes lust love and attachment.  Contemplating over the lavan a person can easily understand the meaning of "sang" in the wisdom sri guru tegh bahadur sahib ji passed on to sri guru gobind singh ji at a young age. 

The verse from Dasam Granth is obviously talking about physical relationship between male n female, husband n wife therefore are valid.

Non-marital sex is forbidden, even to fantasies is not allowed.

If you read today's Hukamnama from Sri Darbar Sahib Amritsar it will remove all doubt's about Grehasti not being Spiritual. More so Sikhs should be Udaasi within Grehast Jeevan.

https://www.sikhnet.com/hukam

Edited by singhbj singh
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Preeet said:

ਹਾਥ ਕਮੰਡਲ੝ ਕਾਪੜੀਆ ਮਨਿ ਤ੝ਰਿਸਨਾ ਉਪਜੀ ਭਾਰੀ ॥
Hĝth kamandal kĝpṛī­ĝ man ṯarisnĝ upjī bẖĝrī.
With bowl in hand, wearing his patched coat, great desires well up in his mind.
ਇਸਤ੝ਰੀ ਤਜਿ ਕਰਿ ਕਾਮਿ ਵਿਆਪਿਆ ਚਿਤ੝ ਲਾਇਆ ਪਰ ਨਾਰੀ ॥
Isṯarī ṯaj kar kĝm vi­ĝpi­ĝ cẖiṯ lĝ­i­ĝ par nĝrī.
Abandoning his own wife, he is engrossed in sexual desire; his thoughts are on the wives of others.
 

& about the 16K wives of that avatar, it is real.. The story is that there was an asura named NarakhAsur and he kidnapped those 16000 women, Sri Krishna ji saved those women and the women said something along the lines that who would marry them now considering that they have been captive at an asura's home. So Sri Krishna ji told them that he will be their spouses name wise.

The gurbani line you quoted describe signs of a fake saadhu ! 

In case of a gay man, it would be someone who claims to be a monk now but even within monasteries, homosexual activity is happening.

Its a lesson don't go celibacy just because of your life circumcstances lol

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 hours ago, Preeet said:

Lol what difference is it between a new sadhu, and someone who is gay who is forced to be 'celibate' in sikhi..(instead of fulfilling the kaam(marriage) part of life [Dharma, Artha , Kama and Mukhti])? Don't both of those unmarried people have their minds distracted at times

the 'chaar padarth' u mentioned are part of hindu dharam. Nowhere mentioned in sikhi as far as I am aware , certainly not the artha (finance) and kama(sexual desire). 

Secondly, I am wondering what if I chose middle way : like having it with other guys , and also maintaining a dharmic life (sewa, simran, etc ) ?

where would i land then ? because the longest I have gone without touching myself was 42 days ! trust me, my mind was going havoc with all of it ! you can constrain urself physically but mentally mind still wavers. Heck , it happens in gurudwara if a hot guy passed by you . Very tough indeed !

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Akalifauj    792
On 24/02/2017 at 11:13 PM, singhbj singh said:

The verse from Dasam Granth is obviously talking about physical relationship between male n female, husband n wife therefore are valid.

Non-marital sex is forbidden, even to fantasies is not allowed.

If you read today's Hukamnama from Sri Darbar Sahib Amritsar it will remove all doubt's about Grehasti not being Spiritual. More so Sikhs should be Udaasi within Grehast Jeevan.

https://www.sikhnet.com/hukam

The Gurus never stopped from speaking directly.  If Satguru was saying to increase physical relations he would have directly said it.  But he didn't and said increase "sang".  Your mind is polluted by sex and you want gurmat to give you a thumbs up but this will never happen.  Satguru in the later part of the lesson gives an example of what not to do ever; go to another woman bed in your dreams.  What does this mean.  It means thoughts are dangerous and theu take you the pit of hell if this is how you think.  Your backward western culture has taken your mind 10000 steps back.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
jkvlondon    3,536
13 hours ago, Preeet said:

You should read nitnem sahib (daily).. It mentions the char padaraths in it. Kaam generally means wish (manokaamna).. Aartha is also blessed on Sikhs if they give dasvand, then their income also increases. As for the last issue, I sadly do not know what to advise you to do. Probably just marry another guy through court marriage and then both be blessed with amrit together? Since I think couples from different background religions who convert to sikhi do not get an anand karaj if they are new to sikhi now, since they are already married. Not sure though, just my opinion. 

If non-sikhs become sikhs then have amrit they have to be remarried according to anand karaj to be correct in Sikhi

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Akalifauj    792
11 minutes ago, Preeet said:

Really..? Some of my family has been married through hindu style and never got remarried like that.. lol.

Your family does not set the precedent.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your content will need to be approved by a moderator

Guest
You are commenting as a guest. If you have an account, please sign in.
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoticons maximum are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...

  • Topics

  • Posts

    • I just wanted to make a quick point because Sant jarnail Singh khalsa bhindranwale is not shaheed he is in chardi Kala this was uttered by Mahapurakh Sant baba thakur singh Jee who was a complete soul and gurmukh
    • the fact that he was given an offer of one arb Dollars and guaranteed citizenship of ANY nation along with any or all of his folks if he  would only vacate and leave Harmandir Sahib complex to the army i.e. to let them do what they will ...this offer was delivered by soldiers and every single one decided to stay with Sant ji when he refused the offer ...this was explained in the dusht Brar's book so must be true as why would he do Sant ji any favours? Sant Kartar SIngh ji Bhindrawale knew what was to happen and would have made his proteges all strong in parchaar and told them to take hosh as well as josh path 
    • Who else agrees that the Gurmukhi encoded script is in desperate need of work? By work I mean proper encoding of the script for web use. Working on various fonts and having a standard font system et al. I see Arabic/Devanagari done so well, but of course their populations exceed ours. However, even Hebrew has been done so well.

      I thank the Sikhs and Unicode who have initially encoded the Gurmukhi script, but I personally think we need to develop it further with different styles and expressing it through various forms if we want to keep it alive. I guess tackling this issue will involve some cleaning up of the alphabets themselves (why have the alphabets become so rounded?) - we can do this by taking some inspiration from Sharada/Lahnda (parent systems from which Gurmukhi has evolved from) and also Devanagari. Also the sehari/behari placement needs designation as well, its all over the place from all the fonts I've seen. We would also need to designate a font for several writing styles e.g., cursive, standard header, body text, calligraphic - because we clearly have no output for Gurmukhi at the present moment in the mentioned styles.  If there are any computer programmers and designers among us, I'm willing to join in and help develop new fonts/styles for the Gurmukhi script.
    • The analogy is so true! Great introspection man.
×