Guest guest singh

does sikhi permit use of contraception with own wife

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I am a young married gursikh. 

me and wifey have kids, can we still continue having bhog of each other using condoms or pills, or is it forbidden as per maryada.

Thank you for enlightening 

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Sikhi isnt about rules, do and donts, its about reaching the ultimate goal, waheguru. If u find other things in life more important or enjoyable then u have to analyze ur priorities. So u need to prioritize based on ur values: family, health, spirituality, wealth, society...etc

Forcing someone to chanve their priorities doesnt work, leads to pakhand, and other problems

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Yes of course.  We are  not Muslims it's normal to have a loving intimate relationship. It's not about having children alone. I'd be gutted if my husband when I get married if he only wanted children. 

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Having a child automatically changes your priorities because you have no option but to care for them and you made that commitment. But marriage is also about closeness between spouses. The Gurus were not against intimacy, they just taught intimacy should be between husband and wife only in a healthy relationship with lifelong commitment. It's up to the couple to decide on family planning and how many kids. I don't think Waheguru wants to burden a family having to look after 14 kids they can't afford when one or two children well looked after is way better. But what do you do after those one or two? Do you stop being a husband and wife and live more like brother and sister at that point? I don't think so otherwise why is marriage for life then? What about after menopause and no children can be created anymore? Should husband and wife cease to be marriage partners at that point and switch to a platonic relation like brother and sister? Sexual relation is not just for procreation but also bonding and it can also be spiritual. It's the closest we can ever hope to understand the union with another entity and that's why it's used as a metaphor in Gurbani so much. It's that powerful but only if it's not misused for only physical pleasure. Then it gets changed to something cheap and meaningless. 

Short answer yes you can use contraception. As long as you remain in stable loving marriage with your spouse. 

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On 2/4/2017 at 11:42 PM, Guest Kaur said:

Having a child automatically changes your priorities because you have no option but to care for them and you made that commitment. But marriage is also about closeness between spouses. The Gurus were not against intimacy, they just taught intimacy should be between husband and wife only in a healthy relationship with lifelong commitment. It's up to the couple to decide on family planning and how many kids. I don't think Waheguru wants to burden a family having to look after 14 kids they can't afford when one or two children well looked after is way better. But what do you do after those one or two? Do you stop being a husband and wife and live more like brother and sister at that point? I don't think so otherwise why is marriage for life then? What about after menopause and no children can be created anymore? Should husband and wife cease to be marriage partners at that point and switch to a platonic relation like brother and sister? Sexual relation is not just for procreation but also bonding and it can also be spiritual. It's the closest we can ever hope to understand the union with another entity and that's why it's used as a metaphor in Gurbani so much. It's that powerful but only if it's not misused for only physical pleasure. Then it gets changed to something cheap and meaningless. 

Short answer yes you can use contraception. As long as you remain in stable loving marriage with your spouse. 

Then wat about homosexual relationships?  Sure they also are equally beautiful then because they too give that closeness and intimacy to gay partners

Edited by AjeetSinghPunjabi

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On 04/02/2017 at 11:42 PM, Guest Kaur said:

Having a child automatically changes your priorities because you have no option but to care for them and you made that commitment. But marriage is also about closeness between spouses. The Gurus were not against intimacy, they just taught intimacy should be between husband and wife only in a healthy relationship with lifelong commitment. It's up to the couple to decide on family planning and how many kids. I don't think Waheguru wants to burden a family having to look after 14 kids they can't afford when one or two children well looked after is way better. But what do you do after those one or two? Do you stop being a husband and wife and live more like brother and sister at that point? I don't think so otherwise why is marriage for life then? What about after menopause and no children can be created anymore? Should husband and wife cease to be marriage partners at that point and switch to a platonic relation like brother and sister? Sexual relation is not just for procreation but also bonding and it can also be spiritual. It's the closest we can ever hope to understand the union with another entity and that's why it's used as a metaphor in Gurbani so much. It's that powerful but only if it's not misused for only physical pleasure. Then it gets changed to something cheap and meaningless. 

Short answer yes you can use contraception. As long as you remain in stable loving marriage with your spouse. 

Sorry but this answer reeks of hypocrisy ! There were no contraceptives in guru's time. So thats why people have many kids and usually stopped their sexual activity once they crossed the family planning phase. There's nothing natural about contraception . Its an unnatural act ! and yes its only for physical pleasure , Having sex for emotional or spiritual benefit is what tantrics do ! we're sikhs 

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On 30 January 2017 at 4:59 PM, Guest guest singh said:

I am a young married gursikh. 

me and wifey have kids, can we still continue having bhog of each other using condoms or pills, or is it forbidden as per maryada.

Thank you for enlightening 

Sex is only for procreation the rest is paap.  Procreation must take place within married life after Anand Karaj between man and woman, the rest is just bs. No need to use artificial means of birth control just practice sikhee.

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exactly i find it hard that you actually call yourself a gursikh and secondly ask stupid questions. Shocking

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Can you clarify where exactly it is said that contraception is banned or that "sex is only for procreation the rest is paap"?

These are dangerous, nonsenical pieces of advice that you are passing on to our community. Based on total unsubstantiated jagsaw interpretations that in this case are no different to Islam.

Contraception is fine between husband and wife and I challenge any fanatic to show evidence to the contrary where it is written that is not.

Ajeetsinghpunjabi where you have written that there was no contraception in guruji time, it is false and a moot point. It's false as there was the rhythm method. Is moot because there were no cars or iPhones either. Using your logic sites that mean using them is against sikhi?

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Im sorry but celibacy is not recommended in sikhi. Therefore celibacy within marriage is also not recommended unless both partners are at that avastha.

Remember we had that one bibi complaining about her Gursikh husband? That he was too emotionless? Stable marriages are important, we need to have grihsti, householder lifestyle

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Watch the videos i posted above n provide counterargument to those.

Ofc, a sikh should let nothing in life interfere with Amritvela, Naam Kamai, and Gurbani. So if these important things are being done, continue with your householder life. You and your wife need to come up with your own restrictions and healthy way of living.

Sikhi does not have many rules, for that reason so that people can come up with rules for what works for them in their specific situations. So use ur budhi/ intelligence to set limits at where nothing interferes with kamaaing sikhi

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1 hour ago, Not2Cool2Argue said:

Im sorry but celibacy is not recommended in sikhi. Therefore celibacy within marriage is also not recommended unless both partners are at that avastha.

Remember we had that one bibi complaining about her Gursikh husband? That he was too emotionless? Stable marriages are important, we need to have grihsti, householder lifestyle

Celibacy ALONE in sikhi is not approved in sikhi.  Celibacy for a person who is not married is approved in sikhi.  And there is no such thing as celibacy in sikhi once a person is married.  

Any amount of people complaining does not speak for what sikhi teaches.  That bibi should understand she is in the wrong and her husband is taking her on the correct path.  Sikhi marriage is about uplifting the partner and not about focusing on emtions and bringing the other partner down to lower animal instincts.  A stable marriage is one who does not let emotions run their lives and applies sikhi as therr driving force.  

 

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8 hours ago, Guest Kadeykadey said:

And you should be the last one to be preaching over here!  There is no evidence of homos either during that time!  What a hypocrite. Heteros had too many kids 'cos all they had in those days was bedroom entertainment and nothing else.  Bollywood and television entertainment were not invented till recently to keep their pathetically lazy and useless minds occupied. Let's face it, how many people in those days could read or write with Punjabi blood running in their veins? They never could read newspapers, novels, medical journals or even a simple comic in those days, could they? Their unoccupied minds ran wild, created havoc at every moment of their lives.  Contraception  became extremely important to stop producing unwanted army of hooligans meaning unruly, unwanted kids!  Some kids never even went to school if they were born in a pennd. All sex is lust therefore should only be used in an emergency like when couples want to have a child to increase the size of their family. Honestly you are such a hypocrite. 

 

maybe you should stop talking , your brain is escaping from your mouth , sikhs of Guru ji's time had big families and were vidhvaan of high order as well as warriors Bhai Mati Das's family had so many shaheeds how comes your theory doesn't count them as hooligans too ...

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8 hours ago, Guest Kadeykadey said:

And you should be the last one to be preaching over here!  There is no evidence of homos either during that time!  What a hypocrite. Heteros had too many kids 'cos all they had in those days was bedroom entertainment and nothing else.  Bollywood and television entertainment were not invented till recently to keep their pathetically lazy and useless minds occupied. Let's face it, how many people in those days could read or write with Punjabi blood running in their veins? They never could read newspapers, novels, medical journals or even a simple comic in those days, could they? Their unoccupied minds ran wild, created havoc at every moment of their lives.  Contraception  became extremely important to stop producing unwanted army of hooligans meaning unruly, unwanted kids!  Some kids never even went to school if they were born in a pennd. All sex is lust therefore should only be used in an emergency like when couples want to have a child to increase the size of their family. Honestly you are such a hypocrite. 

Honestly you sound like a buffon. People didn't have kids cause they were bored; they had kids because in those days the idea was both to keep your legacy alive as well as keep the Sikh population high from birth rates and conversion, (neither of which happens enough now days).

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19 hours ago, Guest Kadeykadey said:

And you should be the last one to be preaching over here!  There is no evidence of homos either during that time!  What a hypocrite. Heteros had too many kids 'cos all they had in those days was bedroom entertainment and nothing else.  Bollywood and television entertainment were not invented till recently to keep their pathetically lazy and useless minds occupied. Let's face it, how many people in those days could read or write with Punjabi blood running in their veins? They never could read newspapers, novels, medical journals or even a simple comic in those days, could they? Their unoccupied minds ran wild, created havoc at every moment of their lives.  Contraception  became extremely important to stop producing unwanted army of hooligans meaning unruly, unwanted kids!  Some kids never even went to school if they were born in a pennd. All sex is lust therefore should only be used in an emergency like when couples want to have a child to increase the size of their family. Honestly you are such a hypocrite. 

 

Lol. I don't think 'emergency' has anything to do with adding more members to any family even if they turn into ugly looking ill mannered urchins !o!  Moreover, good quality contraception has nothing to do with overactive reptilian brains, so long as you understand this little secret.  Good quality education minus punjabi culture is imperative for those veins. High quality education will stop those already eroded minds from decaying  any further. I am keeping my fingers crossed.

 

Edited by CHaamCHrick
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On 20/02/2017 at 8:17 PM, Guest Kadeykadey said:

And you should be the last one to be preaching over here!  There is no evidence of homos either during that time!  What a hypocrite. Heteros had too many kids 'cos all they had in those days was bedroom entertainment and nothing else.  Bollywood and television entertainment were not invented till recently to keep their pathetically lazy and useless minds occupied. Let's face it, how many people in those days could read or write with Punjabi blood running in their veins? They never could read newspapers, novels, medical journals or even a simple comic in those days, could they? Their unoccupied minds ran wild, created havoc at every moment of their lives.  Contraception  became extremely important to stop producing unwanted army of hooligans meaning unruly, unwanted kids!  Some kids never even went to school if they were born in a pennd. All sex is lust therefore should only be used in an emergency like when couples want to have a child to increase the size of their family. Honestly you are such a hypocrite. 

 

I stopped reading you after the line in bold ! Homos always were, are and always will be ! Quran and bible both mention homosexuality , albeit forbiddingly, but hey it mentions it ! Homos back then were single or married women. They might have been some of the best pracharaks and dedicated to guru because they didn't have any family obligation.

HOMOS Definitely existed before all the bullsh*t religions that condemn us and will continue existing after all religions are dead and long gone ! 

Truth triumps in the end ! 

PS: The fact that gurbani doesn't mention homosexuality is evidence of the fact that 

1) gurbani only deals with spiritual theme

2) Sexuality is irrelevant to spiritual growth

3) Gurus didn't condemn or condone it, but remained neutral . 

Are you saying guru ji were not aware of 'kateb' (collective term for abrahamic religions books) where homosexuality is clearly mentioned ?

In other active thread someone wondering reasons of downfall for sikh masses, well homophobia like yours is the one ! 

Edited by AjeetSinghPunjabi

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Intimacy with husband and wife goes way beyond sexual pleasure. There is a reason the Gurus encouraged gristi jiwan. Sexual union is way more than physical. It's literally the merging of two souls into one as spiritual energy is shared between them. It's a part of being husband and wife. Procreation is only one reason for it and certainly it's up to the couple how many children they want or can afford. But just because family planning is done does not mean the husband and wife then part ways physically and become as brother and sister? In Gurbani marriage (and even sexual union) are used as metaphors because its the closest thing we can understand to our merging with akal purakh. When we merge with our spouse, we are living out that metaphor and it can be (in right circumstances and not done for mere physical pleasure) a deeply spiritual event. However outside marriage its too simple to just say this is paap that is paap. It's deeper than that. It's harmful spiritually because spiritual energy is exchanged / shared between the couple. So its not like abrahamic religions that say fire and brimstone if you do this or dont do that. For Sikhs hell is being separated from Akal Purakh Waheguru. And by mingling many spiritual energies and that too for only physical pleasure, its only us who lose out in the end because it brings us further away from our goal and hence that is the hell. But to answer the OP, yes contraception is fine in a committed marriage. Celebacy is not advocated in marriage by any of the Gurus. If a couple has finished family planning then they are not expected to just stop being intimate with each other. Or else IVF can become the new norm. Why even bother with sex at all if you can make a baby in a test tube and the couple never has to touch each other at all!  In fact, asceticism is actively spoken against in Gurbani. There is no rule that I am aware of in any rehet maryada in existence that says otherwise (but correct me if I am wrong). 

 

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33 minutes ago, HarkiranKaur said:

 

Intimacy with husband and wife goes way beyond sexual pleasure. There is a reason the Gurus encouraged gristi jiwan. Sexual union is way more than physical. It's literally the merging of two souls into one as spiritual energy is shared between them. It's a part of being husband and wife. Procreation is only one reason for it and certainly it's up to the couple how many children they want or can afford. But just because family planning is done does not mean the husband and wife then part ways physically and become as brother and sister? In Gurbani marriage (and even sexual union) are used as metaphors because its the closest thing we can understand to our merging with akal purakh. When we merge with our spouse, we are living out that metaphor and it can be (in right circumstances and not done for mere physical pleasure) a deeply spiritual event. However outside marriage its too simple to just say this is paap that is paap. It's deeper than that. It's harmful spiritually because spiritual energy is exchanged / shared between the couple. So its not like abrahamic religions that say fire and brimstone if you do this or dont do that. For Sikhs hell is being separated from Akal Purakh Waheguru. And by mingling many spiritual energies and that too for only physical pleasure, its only us who lose out in the end because it brings us further away from our goal and hence that is the hell. But to answer the OP, yes contraception is fine in a committed marriage. Celebacy is not advocated in marriage by any of the Gurus. If a couple has finished family planning then they are not expected to just stop being intimate with each other. Or else IVF can become the new norm. Why even bother with sex at all if you can make a baby in a test tube and the couple never has to touch each other at all!  In fact, asceticism is actively spoken against in Gurbani. There is no rule that I am aware of in any rehet maryada in existence that says otherwise (but correct me if I am wrong). 

 

Present Gurbani which says husband and wife sexual relations is a spiritual experience.

Edited by Akalifauj
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According to Gurus, the woman was the true faith. Once Guru Hargobind chanced to meet Jehangir, a disciple of Daulai Shah who said to him

Aurat kya aur faqiri kya, Hindu kya aur Piri kya?
Puttar kya vairag kya, daulat kya or tyag kya.?
(Woman and mendicancy do not go together as a Hindu and Pir 
(Divine); a son and detachment; wealth and renunciation).

Guruji advised him that the woman you ridicule keeps the moral character high:

Aurat Iman, daulat guzran, puttar nishan,
Faqir na Hindu na Musalman.
(A woman is the faith, wealth is for a living, a son continues the lineage and a Faqir is neither a Hindu nor a Musalman).

Of course the Sikh faith forbids cohabitation with ‘other’ women so that man should not decline morally.

"Sudh jab te ham dhari bachan Guru diaye hamarai.
Poot eh pran tohi, pran jab lag ghat tharai.
Nij nari sang neh tum nit badhaiyoh.
Parnari ki sage bhool supnai hoon na jaiyiho" - Dasam Granth

(When I came of age, my father-Guru told me to take a vow - to be kept throughout my life- to love my wedded wife always and not to go to another woman’s bed erroneously even in a dream).

Source - http://www.jawadditaksal.org/imageofwoman.php

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1 hour ago, singhbj singh said:

"Sudh jab te ham dhari bachan Guru diaye hamarai.
Poot eh pran tohi, pran jab lag ghat tharai.
Nij nari sang neh tum nit badhaiyoh.
Parnari ki sage bhool supnai hoon na jaiyiho" - Dasam Granth

(When I came of age, my father-Guru told me to take a vow - to be kept throughout my life- to love my wedded wife always and not to go to another woman’s bed erroneously even in a dream).

Source - http://www.jawadditaksal.org/imageofwoman.php

Can you bring a reference to what sang means in Gurmat terms.  Literal meaning of sang is company, yet in english you mistranslate to say love.  If you were trying to adapt the union of one owns woman with thee man to the other side of the coin of never going to another woman's bed even in dreams.  This would mean to translate sang as lust in english because going to another woman's bed in dreams is all about lust and the later is being prescribed by the Guru according to your beliefs.  But obvoiusly we have Sri Guru Tegh Bahadur Sahib jis bani to shine more light on this teaching.  Satguru says not to lust and attach yourself to family, including wife.  So it can't be lust and it also can't be love because love is attachment when speaking about wife. Gurbani read as lavan as man and wife get married says nothing about loving your wife as you have so carelessly put it.  Worldly love is not approved in Gurbani.  Instead the lavan describe the journey the soul takes on the path to the Guru.  First lav says to let go of the vedas the praise to brahma.  Gurbani says the vedas are stuck in the 3 gunas and dont know the fourth state.  The 3 gunas are maya and this includes lust love and attachment.  Contemplating over the lavan a person can easily understand the meaning of "sang" in the wisdom sri guru tegh bahadur sahib ji passed on to sri guru gobind singh ji at a young age. 

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8 hours ago, HarkiranKaur said:

 

Intimacy with husband and wife goes way beyond sexual pleasure. There is a reason the Gurus encouraged gristi jiwan. Sexual union is way more than physical. It's literally the merging of two souls into one as spiritual energy is shared between them. It's a part of being husband and wife. Procreation is only one reason for it and certainly it's up to the couple how many children they want or can afford. But just because family planning is done does not mean the husband and wife then part ways physically and become as brother and sister? In Gurbani marriage (and even sexual union) are used as metaphors because its the closest thing we can understand to our merging with akal purakh. When we merge with our spouse, we are living out that metaphor and it can be (in right circumstances and not done for mere physical pleasure) a deeply spiritual event. However outside marriage its too simple to just say this is paap that is paap. It's deeper than that. It's harmful spiritually because spiritual energy is exchanged / shared between the couple. So its not like abrahamic religions that say fire and brimstone if you do this or dont do that. For Sikhs hell is being separated from Akal Purakh Waheguru. And by mingling many spiritual energies and that too for only physical pleasure, its only us who lose out in the end because it brings us further away from our goal and hence that is the hell. But to answer the OP, yes contraception is fine in a committed marriage. Celebacy is not advocated in marriage by any of the Gurus. If a couple has finished family planning then they are not expected to just stop being intimate with each other. Or else IVF can become the new norm. Why even bother with sex at all if you can make a baby in a test tube and the couple never has to touch each other at all!  In fact, asceticism is actively spoken against in Gurbani. There is no rule that I am aware of in any rehet maryada in existence that says otherwise (but correct me if I am wrong). 

 

You do realize that gurbani says nothing about physical sex and spirituality ? except lust.

Even in 'laava' verses recited in anand karaj, it talks of union of soul (bride ) and god (groom) . 

Yes it uses metaphors but those metaphors don't point to humans husband and wife, but rather to soul as bride and god as husband.

In whole of laava, not once is there an indication of marriage happening between a man and wife .

Also, soul has no gender . So , it beggers again "Why is heterosexual intimacy and more "spiritual" than gay intimacy who truly love each other ?"

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2 hours ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

You do realize that gurbani says nothing about physical sex and spirituality ? except lust.

Even in 'laava' verses recited in anand karaj, it talks of union of soul (bride ) and god (groom) . 

Yes it uses metaphors but those metaphors don't point to humans husband and wife, but rather to soul as bride and god as husband.

In whole of laava, not once is there an indication of marriage happening between a man and wife .

Also, soul has no gender . So , it beggers again "Why is heterosexual intimacy and more "spiritual" than gay intimacy who truly love each other ?"

Exactly, it makes me kinda confused on how in some Gurbani lines it talks about sadhus leaving their wives but then they still keep thinking of women in their mind as a sadhu.. Can the same thing be said for gay people who try to 'leave' the marriage concept while becoming celibate & 'dharmic', but still think of guys? So does that not mean that they should get married as well.... bhul chuk maff kijye

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