Guest Kaur13

Charitropakhyan

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I know this is a controversial subject. I only started reading this recently and prior I had always just blindly believed in dasam bani. I should mention I am a kaur and I am really struggling with this writing. I understand the basis of the story, and that the King is being told about deceit and trickery and immorality of women in order to convince him he had the wool pulled over his eyes by his wife.  In an isolated situation that might not mean so much but in a granth considered bani, what stands out at me is that the background to the whole thing is kind of overshadowed by the tales themselves, so many of them, are all similar in that women are pictured as being immoral and filled with deceit and plotting against men. The big message I am getting from all of the stories is that men must keep strict control over women's freedom and keep us from having too much independence or influence over them, so we don't deceive them and make them into fools (or kill them). Even the stories that seem like the woman is a victim, if she uses a trick to save herself thereby influencing the man, she is still the one who is looked down upon and not the man who was doing wrong.  So the main message is that women are supposed to be kept in subjection to men?

So my big question is, why would Guru Gobind Singh write something that makes men view women in such a low light, such that the message is that women should never be allowed to lead and have influence over men, one part even says that dont give her too much freedom, or independence from his control? Doesn't this go against what was taught about equality even of gender? Or am I getting wrong message from this? It is really hurting my soul to read this because I feel like I am being told I am to be under male rule and that I am beneath men because I was born female and that if I have too much freedom from male rule, I will only use my independence to trap men and do harm to them which is not true, and that even if I am a victim I can't use cunning to save myself because that would be a crime against (disrespect to?) a man.  Is Guru Gobind Singh saying that women have to be under total control of males and that males are higher than females? Is that the point of charitropakhyan?

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Bhain ji,

first of all its ur own perception how u perceive Guru sahib.  U read the bani and understand according to ur own mind and declared thats how can guru ji write this bani.

from the body of guru sahib, every second millions and billions of universes are continuously being evolved and billions are continuously being destroyed. Our whole entire thinking powers and all technologies will all fail to calculate guru sahib. 

I personally never get chance to read this bani myself but I beleive but the great great scholars of our panth used to say.

 

sant jarnail singh bhindrawale

sant kartar singh bhindrawale 

sant gurbachan singh bhindrawale 

all used to say that u need a lot lot big heart to understand this bani. A singh then prayed and asked guru sahib, guru sahib told him that its my bani.

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Charitropakhyan is a bani that is advised to be read at a certain stage and when u have someone who can explain the allegorical, metaphorical, and overall message. And u can see why as its hard to relate to the literal meaning.

I havent read it, but ill give my 2 cents anyway. ;)

Like u mentioned, the mantri is trying to convince the King that his wife is lying and being cunning. So ofc all the stories that come afterwards have to be about cunning deceitful women. And even if the cunning was done to save her life, it still shows woman are cunning creatures, which is bad. In the end, the king distrusts his wife, and becomes open to listening to his innocent son.

So thats that, but the point is wat are we as the Khalsa supposed to learn from it? Well that can be answered after we presume some things:

First of all, that men and women arent the same. Equal yes, same no. Secondly, that men are more affected by kaam (while women by moh. AND in sikh history we have great examples of sikhs of both genders transcending that, singhnis who had their children cut to pieces and baba deep singh who wouldnt even look at the face of a women straight on and called them all mother: sakhi reference  when Babaji went to return kidnapped daughters of india) 

And evolutionarily, men minds are hardwired to protect the women and children at all costs, because evolution cares about the next generation, so men are more likely to be biased towards  women for the above two reasons: kaam and protection syndrome ( where women are thought of as always needing protection and seen as innocent)

Also women are more likely to use their body, emotions, and appearance to get things. (one cant really blame women for this: what else is an intelligent species to do when they had no control of their fate, no independence, no voting/property rights? They can only use persuasion, trickery or cunning, so they honed the only weapons available to them.) So this is a warning that nothing comes free, there is always a purpose/reason/or cunning to why the woman is being nice towards you.

And if u look at the real world, there are very dangerous women out there. Prostitutes which will make u ruin ur dharam. Adultery isnt committedby men only, so adultress women who can ruin families. Women who put fake rape charges to ruin pples career. There have been social experiments done where if a strange man offers to buy candy and take kids for a ride, bystanders jump in and stop the kidnapper. But when strange woman offer candy and a ride to kids, bystanders do nothing as woman cant be kidnappers. In brazil, these gangs use their womenfolk: sisters gfs, to kidnap kids. Even in panjabi,sikh culture, indian women will marry an nri and after getting citizenship, they run away with husbands money and marry indian bfs. If husbands had trusted them less, they could have saved their money atleast if not marriage.

So does this mean there are no good women and women shouldnt be trusted? No and yes. Yes there are good women, but its not the peaceful, good womens who u have to be careful about. Like the saying, in nazi Germany, it wasnt the peaceful majority that mattered, it was the evil minority that killed the jews. The peaceful, good folk didnt really matter. Same with life, it isnt the good women u shud be worried about, thats why this bani isnt about them. And no, u shouldnt trust women.....blindly, keep on the watch.

 

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So if we assume everything i said above to be true, which is full of generalizations, and assumptions, then is this bani comparable to gurbani, holy bani which can take u to heaven?

I dont know. I think we need to have a discussion as the sikh kaum. We can only do that once the missionary anti-dasam granth brigade dies down. 

Also if the women in charitropakhyan was a metaphor for maya, about how cunning it is, how it can twist ppls minds, would ur views abt charitropakhyan change?

There are also ram avataar, and chandi charitars to be considered. Are they just translations of hindu granths? Or are they translations with commentary of guruji woven in? It seems the latter.

Also there is this distinction some ppl make, that guru granth sahib is the Guru of Humanity, it is for everyone and leads to salvation, while dasam granth is for the khalsa only, it leads to the betterment of khalsa in all things: teaches us political philosphy, warns of social ills, gives us the best heritage of poetry/literature despite us being the newest religion, fills us with chardi kala, bir ras, and love of akaal. Shows us theres nothing to fear from Kaal or maha kaal, helps us trascend this world and its measly problems.

 

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Like u mentioned, the mantri is trying to convince the King that his wife is lying and being cunning. So ofc all the stories that come afterwards have to be about cunning deceitful women. 

I don't think it is limited to this. I think it also shows how dimwitted men can be when it comes to lust. 

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Please believe me, I understand how you feel. Please do not think Guru Gobind Singh Jee has no respect for women. He has high respect for them and does not see them as lower than men. You do not need to put your focus on that bani. Just focus on other bania and naam, and if you keep focusing on that you'll find out how gentle and compassionate Vaheguru, Guru Sahib and everyone in Saachkhand are. Keep faith in Guru Sahib, you'll find out the truth.

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44 minutes ago, BSingh87 said:

Please believe me, I understand how you feel. Please do not think Guru Gobind Singh Jee has no respect for women. He has high respect for them and does not see them as lower than men. You do not need to put your focus on that bani. Just focus on other bania and naam, and if you keep focusing on that you'll find out how gentle and compassionate Vaheguru, Guru Sahib and everyone in Saachkhand are. Keep faith in Guru Sahib, you'll find out the truth.

Just before the chaitropkahyan Guru ji shows just how highly he judges women of character and truth , see how he describes the fearless warrior she can be , uncorruptible and unconquerable in the full incarnation of gurmat bibek buddhi.

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But the meaning I am getting from the individual stories are that if women are in general more cunning than men, that men should put even more control on women and give them even less freedoms. But men giving women less freedom is what caused women to have to get their needs met by manipulation to begin with! So to me the only answer is in full equality as espoused by SGGSJ, but then why messages in the individual stories telling men to not allow women to make a fool of them and to keep women under even stricter control? The more control placed on someone the more they will use whatever means they can to escape that control or to have their own needs met. In other words the more restrictions men place on women, the more men control and dominate women, the more we have to out of necessity manipulate them to get our own needs met... in some cases to save our life even. It just seems wrong to have moral messages at the end of the stories telling men to do exactly what will make he situation even worse. 

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Firstly, sikhi believes in spiritual equity which is not exactly the same as bling equality.

Charitropakhyan is only controversial for those who have been brought up in jathebandis or SGPC that have lacked Dasam Granth connections.

LAstly we are not anglo christians that we should get offended by such bani.

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This bani is for high avasta gursikhs.

If you have not got the naam simran behind you then you will just get stuck in the Kaam part of the bani. You cannot get past this as you do not have the naam grounding. This is high avasta bani, just get on with your naam simran. 

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Also listen to principle dr harbhajan singh. His analysis on charitopakhyan is amazing. He actually uses dasam bani esp CP to prove that Guru Gobind Singh and Sikhi is feminist. He is on youtube. He mentions about how chandi di vaar is about a women warrior and how indra the king of the gods, has to come to a woman for help. Also mentions about wat bhagauti means, which is how charitopakhyan begins. If a man trascends, becomes enlightened, is divine, its bhagwaan, but the female divine is bhaugauti.

Theres also the story of bala, the women in CP who schools a pandit and other stories. Check him out. 

 

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53 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

Guru ji's writing in DG is not simplistic ABC material, it is deep and operates on multiple levels. People will see it according to their own personal levels of perception. It's a fact that majority of the world operate on a simplistic, surface level of existence - that is why many see CP on purely that level. It's the same with life in general, like how many apnay here in the UK plod along accepting what they see about society on a surface level. Only occasionally does the mask slip off allowing us to see the deeper, darker side that is always there, but chooses to remain hidden in the shadows.

If apnay lived life outside of the sheltered confines of the environment many conservative Sikhs choose to raise their families in, they'd see CP is not remotely some sort of sensationalised work. But Guru ji is ahead of all of maya, and here they lift up the curtain to arm us on what goes on in the shadows, so we don't fall victim to it. 

We can scan newspapers and see mirrors of what CP contains all the time. So it's just another reflection of Guru ji's completeness that they warn us all (male and female) to be on guard of this stuff that conservatives are too frightened to confront. 

But what things are you talking about? The big message is that women must be controlled because we are immoral (generally) and will always make fools of men if given chance. The message is that the only good woman is the one who is obedient and under control of men. One story even says that where the wife convinces the husband she is very obedient to him so he gives too much trust and she ends up cheating. He did too and he did it first but the message doesn't even seem to be about the cheating but only about the fact that she made a fool of him through deceit. Dont you think any man reading that will start to not trust their wives and put extra control on them, making the wife's life even worse because she will be under even worse subjection? It seems to me the answer is not men having too much control over us women, but letting us be free like they are so we wont have to manipulate to have our own needs met and our desire and input on things heard or acted on. (till now men have had way too much control over women and our input was never taken on things and we were always expected to just obey their wishes and go by their wants - so yes I agree the only way that women have had to influence the outcome or actions in their relationships with men was to manipulate them. So it was necessary back in time. But for vast majority it was minor stuff like convincing of certain family decision etc. But answer is just men should give women equal say in things and recognize us as equal level instead of to put us in subordinate role then both will work together always. I don't really see any bad messages about men in there at all except that they can be taken for a loop by dishonest and tricking women. But that just seems its telling men to treat women even worse as slave.  Its really only saying women are bad not men. Its not really warning women about anything except maybe watch out for controlling men but it actually TELLS the men to control us and it never says watch out for that to us. So you can see why I am really having hard time to read these. 

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21 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

Guru ji's writing in DG is not simplistic ABC material, it is deep and operates on multiple levels. People will see it according to their own personal levels of perception. It's a fact that the majority of the world operates on a simplistic, surface level of existence - that is why many see CP on purely that level. It's the same with life in general, like how many apnay here in the UK plod along accepting what they see about society on a surface level. Only occasionally does the mask slip off allowing us to see the deeper, darker side that is always there, but chooses to remain hidden in the shadows.

bang on!

Very difficult to explain in a few sentences but it has to be done step by step. 

CP's messages are nothing to do with Lust.. The message in all of bani is the TRUTH. The TRUTH comes into action with the Primal force of maya.....this is the feminine chandi..., the devi...., maya herself....,the power of the sword...bhagauti...

The charitars have to be read as one tries to raise their avastha via abyass. Hopefully, you can then see through them like a clear sheet of glass. You should realise that the temptations...weakness's.. and vices etc  that are BOTH within and around us; are conquered by the play of this primal force of maya/chandi.... which is very often represented as feminine.  Many times she has to entice and 'chamal' us, in order to teach the lesson of Truth.  ...Just think of when you(male) is 'chamalyiaand turned on by seducing stimulations for 5-senses. This results in our own(male) downfall ., as we give in to pleasures of joy for eyes...ears...nose....taste,  and touch,   

The charitars show how the Primal force of maya (under the hukam of Akaal Purakh),..... Tricks and fools us in unforeseen circular motions; for us to realise the workings of the Truth /Satch that is Akaal Purakh.. A king may be mighty and powerful,... he may be convinced he has Authority, Power and Control over All and himself. He can be under powerful illusion of being Strong willed, not weak, No weakness's ...etc....But maya can come disguised with many temptations, enticements and pulls of pleasure...having him dancing to her tune at the drop of a hat!.. Once the king is lost in such joyous trance of Maya's(she) dance,  ...  she strikes him with the power of the Primal sword in the hope that he wakes up and realises his weakness of 5 dhoots,...pleasures of indries...senses...etc.. 

The teachings of sikhi and the purpose of banis like charitars, is to help us walk the very thin edge of the swordblade between maya/ੴ,... shiv/shakti,.. miri/piri, .. yin/yang.....positive/negative. etc,.,Because this thin line is the path of Truth. If we slip off this blade edge; then the maya force of the sword strikes us in order to help us back on the walk for truth.

 

Edited by luckysingh99
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Throughout Guru Granth Sahib  ji tells us if we do naam abihaas and become Khalsa in the full sense , Maya has to serve us , she loses her powers as she is subject to her agreement with Guru ji and serve His sewaks . DG underlines just what unhindered maya can do and wakes us up to just what Guru ji has promised to save us all from in return for our love and obedience.

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My two cents are that until you dint have a personal experience then sometimes you cant see the message. Each experience will make us see a different perspective.

 

My wife withdrew intimacy a year ago and distanced herself. She was going through alot and confided in a guy from india. She had known him from a previous trip to india. 

 

He perhaps saw her weakness and befriended her. Then two months ago my wife moved out and went to amritsar . I beleive to stay with him. In all negotiations and talks to resolve with families etc she came across blamjng mtself. All the time had a back up with this guy. She denied it intiaially but then admited having a friend. She denies any intimacy with him or doig anything seenas antigurmat but living with this person for two months how can nothing wrong have happened yet? 

Now any number of scenarios, is she innocent or not. Is it right or wrong.

 

Ive heard bibiyan and guys aswell have affairs, sex out side of marriage or before mariage and then take amrit so there sins are cleared and they dnt need to confess.

 

Is this something that could happen with me?

 

What im saying is, in whats hapoened to me theres both male and female, and until my experience i didnt know my wife would be a cunning . I trusted her while she was chatting with another guy and finding somerhing outside.

Had someone taught me the tales in Dasam Granth ji i may have been wise to things. Even know i am not as street wise as what my wife was. 

Was that guy playing my wifes emotions to make a friend and use her. Has he used her already . My wife said hes getting married to someone else too. Does she knw wat her husband is doing.

For me the Chiritriyopakan is not about male or female and whose more at fault or the cause. Its about the message behind the words

 

Guru sahib is well ahead of times to come. 

There is no loyalty, committment or honesty these days. It only exists in the legit gursikhs . Otherwise a man or women wearing a dastar or kakkar doesnt make there deeds pure.

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If you guys ever read on evolutionary psychology particularly on the development of humans in hunter gatherer societies then a lot of what Guru Gobind SIngh Ji makes sense.

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21 hours ago, luckysingh99 said:

bang on!

Very difficult to explain in a few sentences but it has to be done step by step. 

CP's messages are nothing to do with Lust.. The message in all of bani is the TRUTH. The TRUTH comes into action with the Primal force of maya.....this is the feminine chandi..., the devi...., maya herself....,the power of the sword...bhagauti...

The charitars have to be read as one tries to raise their avastha via abyass. Hopefully, you can then see through them like a clear sheet of glass. You should realise that the temptations...weakness's.. and vices etc  that are BOTH within and around us; are conquered by the play of this primal force of maya/chandi.... which is very often represented as feminine.  Many times she has to entice and 'chamal' us, in order to teach the lesson of Truth.  ...Just think of when you(male) is 'chamalyia'  and turned on by seducing stimulations for 5-senses. This results in our own(male) downfall ., as we give in to pleasures of joy for eyes...ears...nose....taste,  and touch,   

The charitars show how the Primal force of maya (under the hukam of Akaal Purakh),..... Tricks and fools us in unforeseen circular motions; for us to realise the workings of the Truth /Satch that is Akaal Purakh.. A king may be mighty and powerful,... he may be convinced he has Authority, Power and Control over All and himself. He can be under powerful illusion of being Strong willed, not weak, No weakness's ...etc....But maya can come disguised with many temptations, enticements and pulls of pleasure...having him dancing to her tune at the drop of a hat!.. Once the king is lost in such joyous trance of Maya's(she) dance,  ...  she strikes him with the power of the Primal sword in the hope that he wakes up and realises his weakness of 5 dhoots,...pleasures of indries...senses...etc.. 

The teachings of sikhi and the purpose of banis like charitars, is to help us walk the very thin edge of the swordblade between maya/ੴ,... shiv/shakti,.. miri/piri, .. yin/yang.....positive/negative. etc,.,Because this thin line is the path of Truth. If we slip off this blade edge; then the maya force of the sword strikes us in order to help us back on the walk for truth.

 

Quote

CP's messages are nothing to do with Lust.. The message in all of bani is the TRUTH. The TRUTH comes into action with the Primal force of maya.....this is the feminine chandi..., the devi...., maya herself....,the power of the sword...bhagauti...

Charitarpakhyan tells a person what happens when a person follows the animal instinct of lust.  The power of the sword is not Chandi or primal force of maya.  Clearly in Chandi di Vaar, Satguru says it's Akal Purakh and not Chandi or bhagauti.  Devis are characters in the play and they lose and the sword (Akal Purakh) wins; conquers the demons and Chandi, other devis as well.  The Sword represent the power of destruction of the egotistical, lustful, hateful, attached, greedy players. 

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The TRUTH comes into action with the Primal force of maya

The definition of truth in Sikhi is Akal Purakh,  Now let's replace The TRUTH in your sentence with Akal Purakh:

Akal Purakh comes into action with the Primal force of maya.....this is the feminine chandi..., the devi...., maya herself....,the power of the sword...bhagauti...

Akal Purakh is in always into action and is not dependant on maya or does not need maya to present himself because the one seeing is maya.  Even in the void, he is in action and inaction.  Even if the word "the truth" is not replaced with Akal Purakh it goes against Sikhi.  The Truth does not come into action with the primal force of maya.  The truth is and always will be.  Mool Mantar is very clear on this topic.   

What you are presenting is the teaching of 3HO devi worship, which is also performed by sanatan followers who refer to themselves as Sikhs.

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First things first. If you are using Pritpal Singh Bindra's English translation to read CP, realise that his interpretation is purely a surface level one, and this will impact on your own perceptions. I applaud his endeavour in making the work accessible to the masses. But it's only a starting point.

 

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But what things are you talking about?

 

I'm going to be brutally frank. When you say this, it makes me feel like you are another one of those sisters who are walking around in some sort of a coma. There are a hundred and one things that we could point at. Just my own personal observations of how some sisters were going on at uni could be used to create another 303 chariters.

https://www.sikhnet.com/news/mundill-mahils-trial-murder-gagandeep-singh

https://www.thestar.com/news/crime/2016/12/26/toronto-sisters-arrested-for-allegedly-cyberbullying-and-extorting-nigerian-billionaire.html

Have a look at how many times people have posted on the gupt section here to pour their miserable hearts out about sleazy stuff going on in their families. This includes amritdhari families btw. 

 

Quote

The big message is that women must be controlled because we are immoral (generally) and will always make fools of men if given chance. The message is that the only good woman is the one who is obedient and under control of men. One story even says that where the wife convinces the husband she is very obedient to him so he gives too much trust and she ends up cheating. He did too and he did it first but the message doesn't even seem to be about the cheating but only about the fact that she made a fool of him through deceit.

This is only a surface reading. A deeper analysis is required. There are hints at this with some of the names used for the characters. It's a shame that the Sikhawareness site is down. There were discussions on these very things on there. That being said, given ground realities (at least here in the UK), Sikh men DO have to be careful of apneean being deceitful as a consequence of them foolishly following their egos and desires (i.e. human nature). How much havoc has that created here? We've got to a point where the behaviour of enough apneean (note not all!), over a fair few decades has created a dangerous situation for the Sikh community in general here now. The reputation that has been forged by poorly thought out and gullible and lust/ego driven decisions now means that even decent Sikh girls are honed in on and targeted by predators.  Now, we have to have an extra burden whenever we send our sisters to universities/work etc. etc. because of the reputation that has unfortunately been made over a few generations. I don't know if you are aware of the Sikh Awareness Society but you should maybe check out their site to get a better understanding of where we are at:

http://www.sasorg.co.uk/

 

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Dont you think any man reading that will start to not trust their wives and put extra control on them, making the wife's life even worse because she will be under even worse subjection? 

I myself believe, and I have heard it also said by female nonSikh friends who interact with Sikh females all the time on a professional and friendship basis, that Sikh women are probably the most freedom given brown girls around. I know there are certain families that are extra with all the control, but generally apneean don't have a fraction of the restrictions placed on them compared to their Panjabi Muslim counterparts for example. 

I think often, the whole idea of women being 'subjugated' actually comes from the subtle imbibing of western feminist ideas through osmosis through living in the west. It's a sort of perpetual 'victim mentality'. Are there restrictions on behaviour in Sikh society? Hell yes! That goes for males and females. I've seen even more restrictions on females in other communities (like the Chinese, Muslim, conservative Jews and a few others I could mention) but you don't hear the complaining that you hear from apneean from them. A lot of these things are done for the girls own protection. And seeing as apneean aren't unknown to get tricked into prostitution or serious sexual abuse, it's not crying wolf at all. 

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It seems to me the answer is not men having too much control over us women, but letting us be free like they are so we wont have to manipulate to have our own needs met and our desire and input on things heard or acted on. (till now men have had way too much control over women and our input was never taken on things and we were always expected to just obey their wishes and go by their wants - so yes I agree the only way that women have had to influence the outcome or actions in their relationships with men was to manipulate them. So it was necessary back in time. But for vast majority it was minor stuff like convincing of certain family decision etc. But answer is just men should give women equal say in things and recognize us as equal level instead of to put us in subordinate role then both will work together always. I don't really see any bad messages about men in there at all except that they can be taken for a loop by dishonest and tricking women. But that just seems its telling men to treat women even worse as slave.  Its really only saying women are bad not men. Its not really warning women about anything except maybe watch out for controlling men but it actually TELLS the men to control us and it never says watch out for that to us. So you can see why I am really having hard time to read these. 

My own experiences are that humans in general are foolish (myself included) and can end up in all sorts of deep trouble through poor decision making, especially when driven by our desires and ego and gullibility (especially when young). The consequence of this on Sikh women are about as clear as day for all of us to see now.

CP in the real context of what the Sikh community experiences TODAY, is another testimony to the fearlessness and foresight of our Gurus. Don't take things purely literally, get the underlying points. It's not a bad thing to keep a check on ourselves and our base natures. It's also not a bad thing to understand how this very same thing in other people (who are close to us, our brothers, sisters, wives, friends, mothers etc.) can be dangerous and detrimental for us.

One last suggestion is to flip the characters  and make the males, female and vice versa. I don't see anything in there that applies to women that doesn't apply to men too. CP is so powerful and relevant that it strikes at the very issue that is weakening our community no end today. I don't think it instills a control freak mentality in men, but rather arms them to realities about human nature (both male and female) that are essential for us to grasp.

Btw, did you not pick up on how the framing story itself is a warning against older, powerful men marrying younger, attractive trophy wives? Hell hath no fury like a women scorned too! Does it not highlight the pull of physical youth and power. Are these things not relevant to us today? 

 

Edited by dallysingh101

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On 10/01/2017 at 9:24 AM, Guest Kaur13 said:

 I should mention I am a kaur and I am really struggling with this writing.

Why the need to mention you are a "kaur" if you are posting as guest kaur 13?

What have you read so far about this writing?

 

 

On 10/01/2017 at 9:24 AM, Guest Kaur13 said:

 I understand the basis of the story,

 

Share your understanding of the basis of the story to begin with.

 

On 10/01/2017 at 9:24 AM, Guest Kaur13 said:

and that the King is being told about deceit and trickery and immorality of women in order to convince him he had the wool pulled over his eyes by his wife.

 

Thats not an accurate assessment. The King is not being told about the "deceit and trickery and immorality of women." He is being told "charitropakhyan" which means tales of people.

Perhaps that's why you are struggling to understand this.

 

On 10/01/2017 at 9:24 AM, Guest Kaur13 said:

 what stands out at me is that the background to the whole thing is kind of overshadowed by the tales themselves, so many of them, are all similar in that women are pictured as being immoral and filled with deceit and plotting against men.

 

Most of the stories are created to resemble the actual event at play. So it shouldn't come as any surprise why many of the stories involve women at the centre.

 

On 10/01/2017 at 9:24 AM, Guest Kaur13 said:

 The big message I am getting

 

I think you're getting the wrong message.

 

You sound very much like Satkiran from sikhawareness. she plagued that forum with exactly these thoughts and words for a long time.

 

On 12/01/2017 at 0:03 AM, Guest Kaur13 said:

One story even says that where the wife convinces the husband she is very obedient to him so he gives too much trust and she ends up cheating. He did too and he did it first but the message doesn't even seem to be about the cheating but only about the fact that she made a fool of him through deceit.

 

Please share the story then we can see.

 

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Lets see female and control.... The two words that have frequented this topic. We are all female soul brides of God. Maybe these stories are all about the way we cheat God. 

Promise him to wake up at amrit vela and not do it. Ask for help in hard times and forget him in sukh. Completely forget that he is the master and go after other things like maya which is counted as cheating. We are all cheaters. 

We need to be subservient to God. Guru Arjun dev ji was still saying tera kiya mitha laage... while sitting on the hot tava... 

If a thorn pricks us... how many swearing words are going to escape our mouths. 

We have to allow God to be in charge of our lives and submit control to the creator of the world.  How hard that simple task is.

If CP reminds you of your duties to God... read it. If your mind is full of filth.. sadly  only filth will consume you... even when you read bani.

 

Edited by sikhni777
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20 minutes ago, sikhni777 said:

Guru Angad dev ji was still saying tera kiya mitha laage... while sitting on the hot tava... 

Guru Arjun Dev Ji. 

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