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13Mirch

Sant Jarnail Singh Ji and the Akali-Dal

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On 30/12/2016 at 2:34 PM, 13Mirch said:

Khalara actually researched his subject, I have always believed that the Akalis did him in. 

I wouldn't be surprised at all, the Akali leaders who were on board with Delhi and Punjab Police were in on everything. Those who weren't on board faced repeated harrassment. 

1 hour ago, StarStriker said:

Meh, whatever, and wat is ur estimated death count of sikhs from 1977-1995? this includes deaths of all over india.

To be honest that is something too difficult to put a number on. Especially across India, doubt anyone has even kept an estimate number on that. But for 80s to 1993 Punjab, I'd say 50k max total, for Hindus Sikhs and Delhi forces. 

 

What I do know is that Punjab has 12,000 villages, if a govt wanted too it could go to each village and get a count of Sikhs killed by police. Wouldnt be much more difficult than doing a census count. 

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StarStriker    1,007
5 hours ago, KhoonKaBadlaKhoon said:

I wouldn't be surprised at all, the Akali leaders who were on board with Delhi and Punjab Police were in on everything. Those who weren't on board faced repeated harrassment. 

To be honest that is something too difficult to put a number on. Especially across India, doubt anyone has even kept an estimate number on that. But for 80s to 1993 Punjab, I'd say 50k max total, for Hindus Sikhs and Delhi forces. 

 

What I do know is that Punjab has 12,000 villages, if a govt wanted too it could go to each village and get a count of Sikhs killed by police. Wouldnt be much more difficult than doing a census count. 

50k? ur joking right? Operation bluestar alone 10-15k civilian sikhs killed by indian army (tying hands with turbans on n shooting ppl dead, using chemical gas, throwing grenades into side rooms filled with pilgrims etc). That doesnt include other 40+ gurdwaras which were systematically attacked across panjab. Then i havnt even started on operation woodrose, which killed thousands! Remember sikhs had been killed routinely frm 81-83 in fake encounters by state police, which led to so many sharam waleh police officers to leave panjab police and become sikh activists (simranjit singh maan n labh singh as 2 examples). Then theres operation metal, post-indira killings across n.india, which were aleast 10-15k sikhs were murdered, where place like hondh chillar r still being discovered, think of how many undiscovered there r? This all b4 the mass 2nd round of fake encounters during the independance movement/civil war (85-95), where police had quotas to kill as many sikhs boys (12-35 yo) as possible, under the watch of barnala/beanta/badal/presidential rule etc.

Edited by StarStriker
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It's easy throwing around numbers like 10,000 killed in Blue Star, but do post something to back that claim as well. 

Hondh chillar is one that was discovered, which other such villages have been found? None from what I know. 

I want to know the truth of how many of our people were really killed, factual numbers, not understated numbers or blown out of porportion. 

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jkvlondon    3,419
On 02/01/2017 at 9:26 PM, KhoonKaBadlaKhoon said:

It's easy throwing around numbers like 10,000 killed in Blue Star, but do post something to back that claim as well. 

Hondh chillar is one that was discovered, which other such villages have been found? None from what I know. 

I want to know the truth of how many of our people were really killed, factual numbers, not understated numbers or blown out of porportion. 

just talk to te jodha ghar sewadars they had to clear out over 10,000 pairs of shoes  besides we know 100,000 regularly show up for gurpurab programs easy at Harmandir Sahib.

thing is so many victims were burnt after their deaths and thus disappeared , when people went to report their loved ones disappearence either they were disappeared or the FIR was refused to be taken. In that circumstance much like Rwanda the true number of deaths may never be known but it will not be below the ones quoted by human rights organisations on the ground. 

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2 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

just talk to te jodha ghar sewadars they had to clear out over 10,000 pairs of shoes  besides we know 100,000 regularly show up for gurpurab programs easy at Harmandir Sahib.

thing is so many victims were burnt after their deaths and thus disappeared , when people went to report their loved ones disappearence either they were disappeared or the FIR was refused to be taken. In that circumstance much like Rwanda the true number of deaths may never be known but it will not 

I have heard this said many times, but have never seen a source for this OR someone who has actually talked to these sevadaars. Also, think about everyone who was arrested and likely not allowed to get their shoes, or the survivors who probably left without their shoes. Or maybe the sevadaars weren't present when these people came looking for their shoes and they just left? 

Edited by KhoonKaBadlaKhoon

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jashb    232
On 01/01/2017 at 9:37 PM, KhoonKaBadlaKhoon said:

if a govt wanted too it could go to each village and get a count of Sikhs killed by police. Wouldnt be much more difficult than doing a census count. 

 

You expect the government that ordered implemented and executed the Sikh Genocide to obtain a census of it? The same government that urges us to forget about it and move on? lol. Who are you kidding?

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1 hour ago, jashb said:

 

You expect the government that ordered implemented and executed the Sikh Genocide to obtain a census of it? The same government that urges us to forget about it and move on? lol. Who are you kidding?

No. Perhaps interviews etc with these johre Ghar sevadaars at least? I have however seen interviews with non biased sources, and none put their numbers near 10,000-20,000. Thousand, few thousand etc yes I have heard. 

I just refuse to believe some pendu SGPC/SAD shouting about 3lakh Sikhs killed trying to stir emotions for their own use. Also, just because a human rights organization says something, doesnt make it 100% fact. There is a reason Khalra was the only Sikh taken seriously, and it's not because threw around stupid numbers. 

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jashb    232
On 07/01/2017 at 9:33 AM, KhoonKaBadlaKhoon said:

No. Perhaps interviews etc with these johre Ghar sevadaars at least?

 

That's just politically naive. The criminal does not simply incriminate himself.

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jashb    232
On 30/12/2016 at 5:43 PM, KhoonKaBadlaKhoon said:

Even if you go by khalras numbers I don't think even close to 100k people were killed by Punjab police. 

 

How did you reach the conclusion using Khalra's numbers that not even close to 100k people were killed?

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jkvlondon    3,419
1 hour ago, jashb said:

 

How did you reach the conclusion using Khalra's numbers that not even close to 100k people were killed?

he has a complex about numbers being high ...how about questioning  vadda and chotte ghalughara figures too while you are at it since you don't have an official figure from the government confirming them ?

Khalra had the figures for one crematorium out of three in the dist extrapolate across the district , then other districts  and cross check against the reports of missing family members and you can easily hit 100,000 over the decade .In delhi the official figure was only 540 odd as opposed to the conservative figure of three thousand that's a miscount of over 550%

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11 hours ago, jashb said:

 

That's just politically naive. The criminal does not simply incriminate himself.

Yet multiple officers have given great interviews, and quite unbiased. Obviously I'm not expecting gen Brar to come out and admit more than 400 died. 

11 hours ago, jashb said:

 

How did you reach the conclusion using Khalra's numbers that not even close to 100k people were killed?

General accepted figure for police killings in Amritsar district is appox 6,000 from 84 to 95. Amritsar (included Tarn Taran back then) was the district that saw the most action, was and is a highly Sikh populated district, more so than the others. I don't believe you can simply than multiply 6000x13(or 15, # of districts), as not all districts saw the level of action that Amritsar did. Until about 89 majority of activity was along border districts, later on a few Malwa districts saw heavy action as well. 

9 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

he has a complex about numbers being high ...how about questioning  vadda and chotte ghalughara figures too while you are at it since you don't have an official figure from the government confirming them ?

Khalra had the figures for one crematorium out of three in the dist extrapolate across the district , then other districts  and cross check against the reports of missing family members and you can easily hit 100,000 over the decade .In delhi the official figure was only 540 odd as opposed to the conservative figure of three thousand that's a miscount of over 550%

Is that supposed to be an insult towards me? It's a topic I'm passionate about and I want to know as many details as possible. Sorry I'm not willing to run around like an <banned word filter activated> and spout off random numbers. You have always been a very emotional poster and don't use logic much, wouldn't expect you too understand. 

 

"But we have not had the practice or training of keeping a complete record of that oppression. About 50,000, about 1 million – we say all of that. The educated people of the world do not trust that, they need exact figures. And for that, I also say, that you all should unite on this issue"

Edited by KhoonKaBadlaKhoon

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jkvlondon    3,419
18 hours ago, KhoonKaBadlaKhoon said:

Yet multiple officers have given great interviews, and quite unbiased. Obviously I'm not expecting gen Brar to come out and admit more than 400 died. 

General accepted figure for police killings in Amritsar district is appox 6,000 from 84 to 95. Amritsar (included Tarn Taran back then) was the district that saw the most action, was and is a highly Sikh populated district, more so than the others. I don't believe you can simply than multiply 6000x13(or 15, # of districts), as not all districts saw the level of action that Amritsar did. Until about 89 majority of activity was along border districts, later on a few Malwa districts saw heavy action as well. 

Is that supposed to be an insult towards me? It's a topic I'm passionate about and I want to know as many details as possible. Sorry I'm not willing to run around like an <banned word filter activated> and spout off random numbers. You have always been a very emotional poster and don't use logic much, wouldn't expect you too understand. 

 

"But we have not had the practice or training of keeping a complete record of that oppression. About 50,000, about 1 million – we say all of that. The educated people of the world do not trust that, they need exact figures. And for that, I also say, that you all should unite on this issue"

given that I know that they rounded people by the truckload , this is from my nanake in jagroan district , it was only intervention via my Mama in the army that saved them from death. I can believe that you can pick up 50 odd people at a time that way and given the huge number of villages and lack of paperwork from back then any number is possible . Operation woodrose and all the other sweeps are you forgetting them also ? Emotions are fine when tempered with knowledge ... 

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4 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

given that I know that they rounded people by the truckload , this is from my nanake in jagroan district , it was only intervention via my Mama in the army that saved them from death. I can believe that you can pick up 50 odd people at a time that way and given the huge number of villages and lack of paperwork from back then any number is possible . Operation woodrose and all the other sweeps are you forgetting them also ? Emotions are fine when tempered with knowledge ... 

I've been too many villages myself, some states only 1-2 died from their village, others had 10+. I'm sure they did pick up by the truckload very often, but I'm not just going to multiply 50x12,000 and be satisfied. I will probably never have the answers to my questions, but I sure won't settle at some hearsay "facts." I'll spend many many more years trying, regardless if the answer is 25000 to 50000 to 100000. 

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jkvlondon    3,419
8 hours ago, KhoonKaBadlaKhoon said:

I've been too many villages myself, some states only 1-2 died from their village, others had 10+. I'm sure they did pick up by the truckload very often, but I'm not just going to multiply 50x12,000 and be satisfied. I will probably never have the answers to my questions, but I sure won't settle at some hearsay "facts." I'll spend many many more years trying, regardless if the answer is 25000 to 50000 to 100000. 

I'm not saying just grab any old number , but crossreference to actual families with missing people ... I mean three thousand dead in three days of uncontrolled violence in Dehli , and the rapid removal of those bodies left people wondering . That was three days , whereas a decade and half of unmonitored police and army activity could do so much more since they already have the structure to support this activity and the image to hide behind if questioned. 
We need to support the NGOs which are trying to interview the remaining families and witnesses to get statements recorded .

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Akalifauj    784
2 hours ago, Sukhvirk76 said:

There are a few problems with this question please clarify.. 

I'm guessing you want death count of unnatural death? 

Please define the term 'sikh', is the death of a mona Hindu panjabi who goes gurdwara as well as mandir a Sikh? 

 

Anyone who was murdered by the state of India, whether Sikh or mistaken as Sikh is considered a murder at the hand of the state of India.  It becomes a genocide because of the amount and targeting a single group.  You are a troll. 

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