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Lord Singh's email on Sri Dasme Patshah's Granth Sahib


chatanga
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On 9/25/2016 at 11:47 PM, chatanga said:

I have received this email from a group called "Sikhs helping Sikhs." It is a statement purported to be written by Lord Indarjit Singh.

M'lord,

Answers interspersed below.

A.
Please state which, if any, of the following statements is
incorrect:
1. There were many challenges to the Gurus and
their teaching during the lifetime of the Gurus.

Ans: OK, and ... ?


2. When Guru Gobind
Singh added the compositions of Guru Teg Bahadhur to the Adi Granth, he
deliberately excluded any verses that he may have written himself.

 

Ans: Yeah, that's true, but why do you think it would be a good idea to add an entire other granth to an existing granth. It's OK to add some compositions to an existing granth, not to add a whole other granth. 
3.
Guru Gobind Singh, aware of the danger of different sants, babas and cults
diverting or distorting the Gurus’ teachings, decreed that the Adi
Granth with the addition of Guru Teg Bahadhur’s verses,were complete
in themselves and would henceforth be referred to as the Guru Granth
Sahib,

Ans: Yeah. Oh, btw, where in Guru Granth Sahib does it say that Guru Gobind Singh ji added Guru Teg Bahadur's bani? Nowhere, you say? Also, who is this Teg Bahadur fellow? He is not mentioned anywhere in Guru Granth Sahib. 


4. In 1708, Guru Gobind Singh formerly installed the Guru
Granth Sahib as complete and sole guidance for all Sikhs. [Guru manio
Granth]

Ans: Did you mean "formally" instead of "formerly"? Also, do you have a source for #4? You mean the same sources that state the Guruship of Guru Granth Sahib also confirm Guru Gobind Singh ji's Granth? Finally, where does "Guru Manio Granth" come from? From Guru Granth Sahib? I thought that you only accepted Guru Granth Sahib, m'lord?


5. In a verse following our Ardas, the above sentiment is put
as an edict, or hukum, binding on all Sikhs.

Ans: Is this Ardas in Guru Granth Sahib, M'Lord?


6. To accord other
writings or scriptures equal reverence to the Guru Granth Sahib, would be a
betrayal of the above mentioned hukum. 

Ans: The same sources that confirm Guru Granth Sahib's guruship also confirm that Guru Sahib (Dasmesh ji) had their own bani, which they decided to keep outside of Guru Granth Sahib. Agreed that the Granth with Guruship should not have equal reverence to the Granth that does not because that would devalue Guru Granth Sahib's guruship. And that is why the Dasam Granth Sahib is parkashed in a smaller and lower palki than Guru Granth Sahib at Hazur Sahib. 

That does not mean that Guru Gobind Singh ji's bani should not have reverence, only that the Granth in which it is contained should have some level of difference in maryada to support the Guruship.


7. The opening words of the
Guru Granth Sahib remind us that there is only one Supreme Being. This is a
clear rejection of the Hindu belief in a of a pantheon of gods and
goddesses.

Ans: OK, whatever, but what does this have to do with the Dasam Granth Sahib?


8. More than one third of the writings of the Dasam Granth
involve the exploits and praise of various Hindu deities.

Ans: Writing about something is not the same thing as writing in favor of that thing. The writings about demi-gods contain in themselves warnings by Guru Sahib that only the formless God is all-powerful, the lower deities are not. This was done so there would be no doubt in the minds of readers whether Guru Sahib was in favor of worshiping the lower deities. The Guru cannot be responsible if the Sikh is deliberately ignorant. 


9.
Another third of the Dasam Granth involves the denigration of women and
the ‘wiles’ of women, often in stark pornographic terms-in
complete contradiction of Sikh teachings of dignity and complete
equality.

Ans: Well said, M'Lord. This Granth includes denigrating references to women, like saying that man that follows a woman is impure, that women are the chieftains of devils, and it implies that the Guru used a metaphor of women's breasts to talk about humility. Awful. ... Oopsies, actually the Granth that contains all that is Guru Granth Sahib ji. 

I fear what M'Lord would do to Guru Granth Sahib if given a bottle of hartal (erasing fluid). 

Oh, what's that you say, M'Lord? That I'm interpreting bani incorrectly? Well, why don't you try interpreting the Dasam Granth Sahib correctly?


10. The Dasam Granth was compiled by Hindu Brahmins from a
variety of writings at least 50 years after Guru Gobind Singh.

Ans: a) No evidence for this whatsoever. b) Yeah, that's why the Dasam Granth Sahib is so anti-Brahmin, because Brahmins wrote it, got it. c) M'Lord, do you have any evidence that Guru Granth Sahib was not written by Nirmalas and Udassis? No, so I guess that proves it: Guru Granth Sahib was written by Udassis.


11. A
small proportion of the verses in the Dasam Granth are in general
consonance with the teachings of the Guru Granth Sahib and could be lost
writings of Guru Gobind Singh.

Ans: See #9 and #10. Anybody who as read Dasam Granth Sahib can see that it's the work of one pen.


12. In 1930’s and early
1940’s, a committee of renowned Sikh scholars, after much
consultation and analysis, agreed that these banis, listed in the 1945 Sikh
Reyat Maryada, should be included in Sikh worship. The rest of the
misleadingly and mischievously titled Dasam Granth was unceremoniously
rejected as wholly contrary to Sikh teaching.  

Ans: The Sikh Rehit Maryada put forth by the SGPC says the definition of a Sikh is one who, among other things, accepts the bani of the 10 Gurus, not just Guru Granth Sahib. I don't think there was any discussion on the Dasam Granth Sahib in the 1930s and 40s.

Authority in
Sikhism
As per Guru Gobind Singh’s hukum, all
religious guidance is vested in the Guru Granth Sahib alone. No person has
any authority to issue any edict or hukum that is not in consonance with
the Gurus teachings as contained in the Guru Granth Sahib. 

Ans: If only the teachings contained in Guru Granth Sahib are supposed to be accepted by Sikh, why does the definition of a Sikh mention belief in "teachings of the Gurus" separately from belief in Guru Granth Sahib? Obviously because some (many) teachings are outside of Guru Granth Sahib.

Origin of
Jathedhars. 
During the Missl period, leaders of the groups or Jathas
would meet at the Akal Takhat or other venue, to agree policies to meet
common external threats. The leaders or spokespeople, had no spiritual
authority. All decisions had to be in consonance with the Gurus’
teachings.

Ans: That's why Akali Baba Phula Singh had no authority, right?


In the 20s, the newly formed SGPC appointed managers of the
main centres of Sikhism(Takhts) who became known as Jathedhars. Before
their appointment the Secretary of the SGPC would only test their
proficiency in reading the Guru Granth Sahib.

Ans: The jathedar is different from mere managers. E.g., the Jathedar of the Akal Takhat is different from the manager of the Golden Temple complex. And the manager at Kesgarh Sahib is different from the Jathedar. They are different people, and the Jathedar does not handle procuring office supplies.

AFAIK, Jathedars (and even granthis in Darbar Sahib) have to be proficient in both Guru Granth Sahib and Dasam Granth Sahib.

If what what M'Lord says is true, so what? Is the right honorable Lord trying to say nations cannot evolve institutions? America did not have a President till the post was created after 1776. The US Supreme Court did not have 9 members until Congress decided it should. Britain did not have a Supreme Court till Tony Blair created one.


Todays Jathedhars
In recent years, the SGPC has itself become politicized and controlled by
people who show again and again, a greater un-Sikh-like devotion to the
pursuit of wealth and power than to living and promoting the Gurus
teachings.

Ans: OK, maybe, but what, then, exactly? The SGPC is promoting Guru Granth Sahib. Is that invalid just because the SGPC includes people who are devoted to gaining wealth?


Today’s Jathedhars are appointed for their loyalty to
political masters rather than to the Gurus teachings. The title Jathedhar
appears to have gone to the heads of some.

Ans: Horrible, M'Lord. I don't think people should let titles get to their heads, M'Lord. In fact, maybe there should be no titles, do you agree, M'Lord?

In a visit to England, one
repeatedly asked me to introduce him as ‘the Pope of the Sikhs.
Something I refused to do. Another wrote to the British Museum insultingly
stating that Sikh teachings were superior to others.

Ans: As opposed to the official Christian/Catholic/Anglican position that there is no salvation without Christ. That's not insulting, but if the brown man says his religion is superior, then that's insulting. I see.

All too often, they
use Catholic terminology like ‘excommunication’, (literally
banned from drinking communion wine!), to threaten those that disagree with
them. There are other examples.  

Ans: a) I thought the Jathedars were uneducated rubes. Now you're saying they're using big, ten-dollar English words like "excommunication"?  I think what you meant is they are using worlds like "kharaj" or "chhek" b) Not everybody defines "excommuncation" the same way. Webster's defines it as:

  1. :  an ecclesiastical censure depriving a person of the rights of church membership

  2. 2:  exclusion from fellowship in a group or community

Which matches Sikhs using the term. Oxford does indeed mention Christian church specifically, but so what? We can use the word to mean exclusion from the Sikh panth, unless you're trying to say the Sikh panth can't collectively decide to exclude people from its ambit. Is that what you're trying to say, because it's not backed up by Sikh history or Gurbani.


Recent ‘Edicts’
against the Global Sikh Council (GSC)
The GSC has rightly
expressed its concerns over attempts to dilute and distort Sikh teachings
by the BJP by the introduction of the Dasam Granth into Sikh theology, with
its eulogising of Hindu gods and goddesses and its denigration of women, as
described above.

Ans: a) Yeah, I'm sure the BJP loves the part where Guru Sahib says they're not a pujari Brahmin, but a fighter. b) Is a general principle that Sikhs have to delete any part of their religion that Hindus like?  FYI, BJP Hindus love to quote Guru Granth Sahib talking about devtas and avatars.

Sikhs should ask themselves what was the Punjab
Governments motive in producing and distributing thousands of copies of the
Dasam Granth at a cost of crores of rupees?

Ans: Never heard of this. Any links? It's useless to throw pearls before swine so spending money to distribute the Dasam Granth Sahib to the populace is a waste of money. It should be taught in a proper way with proper instructors.


Suggestion
Jathedhars who promote the Dasam Granth,
and even absurdly seek to place it on a par with the Guru Granth Sahib, at
best display a gross ignorance of Sikhism, or worse, are enemies of the
Panth and should be exposed as such by all Sikhs, along with their
political paymasters.  

Ans: Again, the Dasam Granth Sahib should be on a slightly lower platform or palki than Guru Granth Sahib during parkash. But promoting the Dasam Granth Sahib's bani is not to be an enemy of the Panth. Is Guru Gobind Singh ji (author of the Dasam Granth Sahib) also an enemy of the Panth, M'Lord? Oh, did I say Guru, I meant just plain "Gobind Singh", because his name doesn't figure in Guru Granth Sahib.

 

Note: I wrote this up before reading through Kamalroop Singh's answers, so there may be some overlap (or not). Now reading that...

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On 25/09/2016 at 8:48 PM, Jacfsing2 said:

Dasam Granth isn't there to replace Guru Sahib, why do missionaries get this false notion that Dasam Granth is there to compete with Guru Sahib? This would be akin to old Sikhs saying that Baba Buddha was competing with Guru Sahib, even though such a transaction wasn't true at all. Lord Singh may have done some good in his personal life for the Sikh community; however, in terms of Sikhi, he fails to assist us in any way.

because they are unpard gwaars ...the original title given to the complete collection was Dasmesh Guru da Granth but over time the title was shortened to Dasam Guru Granth then to Dasam Granth...

so older knowledgeable SInghs SInghnian would use the middle epithet and thus the objection falsely arises.s

The other objection that where Chaitropakyan come from when the collection was referred to Bachittar Natak (not sure about that given other banis always preceding)Thus throwing all banis out with the baby and bathwater... fitte muh

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On 25/09/2016 at 10:30 PM, chatanga said:

 

This GSC is a collection of sikh bodies from all around the world. Their UK affiliate is the Network of Sikh Organisations of which this Lord Singh is the head, and his wife, Kanwarjit Kaur is the vice principal of the GSC. They are all in it together.

http://www.globalsikhcouncil.org/about-us/

The Global Sikh Council are die hard missionaries who aim to create a Sikh authority separate from the Akal Takht outside of India.

There are a group of Singhs in Malaysia who brought this to the attention of some of the Singhs here in the UK.

If you go on the GSC website and click on Council Info > Member Countries and Organizations you will see under the UK the member organisation is 'Network of Sikh Organisations' and guess who the Director of this organisation is? Yep it's our very own Laardy Laard - 'Lord' Indarjit Singh (http://nsouk.co.uk/management/)

Want more proof that the organisations and gurdware under this 'Global Sikh Council' are hardcore missionaries? Go to it's USA linked organisation page which is the 'American Sikh Council' and here you will see the books they recommend for children are written by the likes of Dilgeer and the Sikh Missionary College (https://americansikhcouncil.files.wordpress.com/2017/04/books-on-the-sikh-faith-for-children.pdf)

One of the 5 objectives per the constitution of the Global Sikh Council is "To follow the Rehat Maryada (Sikh Code of Conduct) passed in 1945 by the SGPC and none other (http://www.globalsikhcouncil.org/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/150801_GSC-Constitution_By-laws.pdf)

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Guest AjeetSinghPunjabi

Maskeen ji once said 

"Anti sikh elements know the beer rass of sikhs stem from dasam granth, So they attack dasam granth baani who're anti-sikh themselves" . 

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By taking a 'lordship' or any other 'title' you are basically giving your 'head' to the state and what it stands for. You make a pledge to that 'system'. So why would you expect Lord Singh to propagate sikhi, when he has given his pledge to another 'maharaj' (well technically maharani at the moment with ol' queenie Liz). 

 

"Sagal duaar kau chhaad kai, gahe’o tuhaaro duaar. Baa(n)he gahe kee laaj as Gobind daas tuhaar."

"O Lord ! I have forsaken all other doors and chosen your door. O Govind, you have taken my arm; cared and protect your servant's honour.864"

You can't serve or accept two can you?

Or a good example of why the giving your head to the state is hypocrisy for anyone who isn't part of the establishment is in this article. https://www.theguardian.com/books/2003/nov/27/poetry.monarchy detailing Benjamin Zephaniah's response to being offered an OBE.

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