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Beadbi Ramgarhia Sikh temple .. Again !!!

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They will give you  2 minutes praises for sikh bravery during WW1 and 2 , and thats what most of us fall for. 

Only thick rural pendus fall for that one. And they are EXACTLY who they target with such propaganda. The rest of us can see through this bull5hit. 

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6 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

Only thick rural pendus fall for that one. And they are EXACTLY who they target with such propaganda. The rest of us can see through this bull5hit. 

 I have a feeling most of punjabi sikh kaum are known to be show off kind of people . And our enemies know it well and exploit it.

Ironically , if you notice Punjabi Hindus who're far more industrially prosperous than sikhs don't have this fukra mentality. 

Look at the biggest industrialists in India . Some of the biggest tycoons in India are punjabi Hindus : 

Mahindra and Mahindra, Airtel , Bollywood Kapoor family, Bajaj , etc....

Ironically most Sikhs don't have big businesses in India . We only had Ranbaxy Pharma, but they sold it off too . We have Apollo tyres as well, but the CEO family has hindu names. How many large patrons do we really have ? why do we have so much of ghaddari genes in us ?

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11 minutes ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

 I have a feeling most of punjabi sikh kaum are known to be show off kind of people . And our enemies know it well and exploit it.

Ironically , if you notice Punjabi Hindus who're far more industrially prosperous than sikhs don't have this fukra mentality. 

Look at the biggest industrialists in India . Some of the biggest tycoons in India are punjabi Hindus : 

Mahindra and Mahindra, Airtel , Bollywood Kapoor family, Bajaj , etc....

Ironically most Sikhs don't have big businesses in India . We only had Ranbaxy Pharma, but they sold it off too . We have Apollo tyres as well, but the CEO family has hindu names. How many large patrons do we really have ? why do we have so much of ghaddari genes in us ?

But what do these rich Hindu Punjabis do for Hindutva?

 Those Kapoors and Khannas were very well off in the Lahore, Rawalpindi in pre-partition. Most of the rich industrialists in Punjab in pre 47 were made of these types and they were still booted out.

Money means diddly squat if you are not going to use it in the right way.

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4 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

But what do these rich Hindu Punjabis do for Hindutva?

 Those Kapoors and Khannas were very well off in the Lahore, Rawalpindi in pre-partition. Most of the rich industrialists in Punjab in pre 47 were made of these types and they were still booted out.

Money means diddly squat if you are not going to use it in the right way.

Yes its true that most of rich hindu punjabis were from pakistani punjab side , but I guess since they're hindu, they're more likely to marry to hindus outside punjab and they do infact and somewhere the kids don't give a damn that they're punjabis and Punjabi element in their culture is lost as it usually happens with Hindu punjabis of mixed marriages.

We should be glad they ain't sponsoring hindutva lol. You don't want more enemies lol .

Rich businessmen anyways don't patronize religions thesedays as they see through all the dhong and hypocrisy . 

If I were rich I would love to patronize so much of sikhi cause though :D I would want my religion to travel far and wide to each corner of planet

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2 hours ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Yes its true that most of rich hindu punjabis were from pakistani punjab side , but I guess since they're hindu, they're more likely to marry to hindus outside punjab and they do infact and somewhere the kids don't give a damn that they're punjabis and Punjabi element in their culture is lost as it usually happens with Hindu punjabis of mixed marriages.

We should be glad they ain't sponsoring hindutva lol. You don't want more enemies lol .

Rich businessmen anyways don't patronize religions thesedays as they see through all the dhong and hypocrisy . 

If I were rich I would love to patronize so much of sikhi cause though :D I would want my religion to travel far and wide to each corner of planet

They remember very well they are Punjabis when it suits them.

Shiv Sena in Punjab had a lot of backing from certain elements of the H.P. business community .

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33 minutes ago, Ranjeet01 said:

They remember very well they are Punjabis when it suits them.

Shiv Sena in Punjab had a lot of backing from certain elements of the H.P. business community .

Shiv sena in punjab is pure evil . I tell you if sikhs keep migrating the way it is now from punjab, we're going to be next zoroastrians of punjab. And lets not forget that hindus are always hiding in bush to wait for the moment when they can reclaim back the punjab. As their numbers grow, so will their influence in politics and ultimately Hindu hegemony over punjab , which even badal was afraid of . I am glad the badals lost the elections.

 And it won't stop at that. They will like to move back the hindu idols to darbar sahib, as it was before the reformist Singh Sabha movement we don't appreciate as much as we should !

I don't think relations between sikhs or hindus are anyways better. We can pretend otherwise.

Ofcourse , Hindus started all the game of marrying with sikhs just so that they can always control us.

 

Edited by AjeetSinghPunjabi
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8 minutes ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Shiv sena in punjab is pure evil . I tell you if sikhs keep migrating the way it is now from punjab, we're going to be next zoroastrians of punjab. And lets not forget that hindus are always hiding in bush to wait for the moment when they can reclaim back the punjab. As their numbers grow, so will their influence in politics and ultimately Hindu hegemony over punjab , which even badal was afraid of . I am glad the badals lost the elections.

 And it won't stop at that. They will like to move back the hindu idols to darbar sahib, as it was before the reformist Singh Sabha movement we don't appreciate as much as we should !

I don't think relations between sikhs or hindus are anyways better. We can pretend otherwise.

Ofcourse , Hindus started all the game of marrying with sikhs just so that they can always control us.

Leeches never leave us, do they ? I really hate them sometimes. 

The Hindus would be pretty stupid to think that Sikhs leaving Punjab would be a good thing.

They would prefer Sikhs to stay because we are useful against the hordes on the other side of the border.

This is the reason RSS were instrumental in Ghar Wapsi. They were very aware of the growth of Christianity in Punjab.

 

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Just now, Ranjeet01 said:

The Hindus would be pretty stupid to think that Sikhs leaving Punjab would be a good thing.

They would prefer Sikhs to stay because we are useful against the hordes on the other side of the border.

This is the reason RSS were instrumental in Ghar Wapsi. They were very aware of the growth of Christianity in Punjab.

 

I wonder what thick pendu singhs have to say on this.

Ghar wapsi is india wide, not jst punjab btw. Also ghar wapsi in punjab to bring christians back to sikhism was rebuked by guess who ? SGPC 

They didn't care that christian missionaries are far bigger threat to sikhs than hindutva 

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5 minutes ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

I wonder what thick pendu singhs have to say on this.

Ghar wapsi is india wide, not jst punjab btw. Also ghar wapsi in punjab to bring christians back to sikhism was rebuked by guess who ? SGPC 

They didn't care that christian missionaries are far bigger threat to sikhs than hindutva 

I can't really speak for the motives of SGPC.

I would be careful to keep calling pendu Sikhs thick. Because when it does come to action they won't over think like the erudite Urban Sikhs, they will just act. They will act first and think later.

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1 minute ago, Ranjeet01 said:

I can't really speak for the motives of SGPC.

I would be careful to keep calling pendu Sikhs thick. Because when it does come to action they won't over think like the erudite Urban Sikhs, they will just act. They will act first and think later.

what exactly u mean ? i do trust SGPC, but i think they're just lazy slobs who don't contribute as much as they should

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5 minutes ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

what exactly u mean ? i do trust SGPC, but i think they're just lazy slobs who don't contribute as much as they should

SGPC are an institution. A political institution,  and like political institutions they tend to be very slow to react to certain events.

And like political institutions tend to do, they are more interesting in keeping power.

Now if Christian missionary activity was a direct threat to the SGPC then they would act.

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11 hours ago, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

Shiv sena in punjab is pure evil . I tell you if sikhs keep migrating the way it is now from punjab, we're going to be next zoroastrians of punjab. And lets not forget that hindus are always hiding in bush to wait for the moment when they can reclaim back the punjab. As their numbers grow, so will their influence in politics and ultimately Hindu hegemony over punjab , which even badal was afraid of . I am glad the badals lost the elections.

 And it won't stop at that. They will like to move back the hindu idols to darbar sahib, as it was before the reformist Singh Sabha movement we don't appreciate as much as we should !

I don't think relations between sikhs or hindus are anyways better. We can pretend otherwise.

Ofcourse , Hindus started all the game of marrying with sikhs just so that they can always control us.

 

The hindu agenda in panjab and viz-a-viz the Sikh nation has always been apparent, as you correctly recognise. But Badal being afraid of it? Really? What do you know about this that is not publicly out there?

Badal & company seemed quite satisfied with it all when they were in power. All they seem to care out about is their ability to emotionally blackmail poor Sikhs too uneducated to know better into voting for them while continuing to mint it from various businesses set up at their expense.

Here's some pictures of them rushing to a few of their anti-Sikh rss hindu cow urine drinking brethren when some dhushts got wet recently.

They don't look remotely concerned with the proliferation of the hindu agenda in panjab to me. They look concerned about losing the saala haraami being treated and the rss head in the huge portrait they are paying homage to.

amritsar-punjab-chief-minister-parkash-singh-290080.jpg.1e38e034a805d58968acf482f78b8abc.jpg

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Badal-and-Sumedh-Saini-Harminder-Soni-e1428945117921.jpg.78cb7495c506043a63f9508c005ea425.jpg

Sukhbir-Badal-payes-tributes-to-Jagdish-Gagneja.png.f3c6c940178e45669c1b45558d8676fb.png

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12 hours ago, Ranjeet01 said:

I can't really speak for the motives of SGPC.

I would be careful to keep calling pendu Sikhs thick. Because when it does come to action they won't over think like the erudite Urban Sikhs, they will just act. They will act first and think later.

Seconded.

We have to be careful not to unthinkingly let the smug deprecatory attitude of the urban hindu casteist elite towards all Sikhs as mere "pendus" to get embedded into our own Sikh psyche.

Due to nonsensical illogical hindu casteist beliefs deliberately introduced, propagated and enforced by bahmans within the Kaum with the aim of keeping the Kaum disunited and weak, this has sadly to a large extent already happened. You just have to look at this forum for evidence of how much our own people casually insult each other with this derogatory term.

The more affluent sections of our Kaum have certainly already imbibed the hindu casteist elitist perception of rural Sikhs into their own perspective. This needs to stop and be reversed. We should not willingly and knowingly continue to fall into their trap.

When large sections of the Kaum are uttering the same derogatory remarks for our own people as our enemies, you should recognise that something is seriously wrong.

No well meaning Sikh should belittle their fellow Sikh brethren as "pendu". By all means, remove their ignorance, if that is what you perceive. But don't attack the very reason they came to be born into Sikhi. Instead, attack the atheist lifestyle of our urban elitist enemies.

Think about it. Dhan Dhan Guru Nanak Ji Maharaj themselves did manual labour on the farm. The most respected early companions of Guru Ji were from a rural background. The most respected early Sikhs were from a rural background. The defenders of Sikhi were from a rural background.

The root of Sikhi is in the rural landscape of Panjab. It was accepted in undivided Panjab, and still largely applies, that the urban industrial elitist was a hindu, the urban labourer was muslim, and the rural labourer was Sikh.

It was two rural Sikhs that beheaded Massa Ranghar. It was two rural Sikhs that killed Arun Vaidya, Lalit Maken and Arjun Dass. It was two rural Sikhs that burnt Paapi Ajit Poohla before he could be released from prison. The lethal power of our rural brethren is something to harness, not criticise.

So what are we unwittingly saying when we casually insult someone using this derogatory term? Should we accept it to describe our Guru Sahiban and Shaheeds too?

Our enemies well understand the physical threat that our rural brethren provide, and it is for this reason they cuss them while at the same stereotyping them as unthinking violent savages. No. They are just as capable of intellect as the urban elitists. Furthermore, they are far more inclined to act out what is necessary than our comfortable, scholarly, polished brethren.

 

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Mere letters and phone calls without the weight of a very real power to replace these corrupt committee men are of limited use.

I agree , but I think its a starter keep prodding and probing the mgmt , will make them think twice( hopefully) of their own personal agenda . What else can we do ?

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To effect real positive change in the long run, it is entirely insufficient to merely get Meat and Alcohol off the proverbial menu. That is short term thinking.

I agree , but the mgmt agenda was to use the hall for social functions where meat and alcohol can be consumed . ( They posted letters to the so  called members stating if no one responds to the letter they sent out then their agenda would be approved and actioned .... which it was supposedly only 19/1800 people responded , so 19 no's and default 1781 YES in favor.

This was picked upon by a few and challenged and still being challenged since August 2016 . I agree long run objectives should be looked at and challenged as well . ( The mgmt have changed the Gurudawara constitution as well , which are against Gurmat and Sikhi  values )

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Corrupt gurudwaras should be abandoned by Sangat. Installing CCTV cameras will help to collect proof of wrongdoings.

I dont think the Gurudwara should be abandoned , especially when Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj is present their. Give them the option to buck up your ideas or take out maharji's saroop from the Gurudawara , then they can do whatever they want.

Some good points AjeetSInghPunjabi , I was having a discussion with someone else regarding the Gurudawara structure . I think the biggest problem is "a body/organisation" which has the power to overturn a Gurudwaras objectives/constitution. As we know this power at the moment lies with the charity commission , providing the Gurudawara is a registered charity. But their power is to make sure money is not swindled , the Gurudwaras constitution are followed . They dont have the authority to tell the mgmt how to run a Gurudwara according to Gurmat and Sikhi principles. I think a proper vetted , objectives and role based Gurudwara structure needs to be setup and passed in parliament giving that structure/organisation the power to intervene at Gurudwaras not following its objectives. How will this be setup ? I think from discussion , seeking out the Gurmats,scholars,professionals amongst the sangat to align the objectives of a Gurudwara. This then be rolled out to all the Gurudawaras.

There may be information out their already , just need collating and presenting to the sangat at every Gurudwara in UK , then around the World. Because at the moment I feel there is none whatsover , and keep going round in circles. You have Sikh Council UK , Satkaar Committee , British Sikh Council , Ramagarhia Council UK , who don't have the power to override the wrongdoings at a Gurudwara. They try within their boundaries and limitations and then wither away when the response is low.

Regarding India and Punjab hopefully with wahegurus kirpa if we sort out our own neighbourhood first then we can help our brothers and sisters in Punjab. Punjab referendum 2020 , is the the next milestone to determine if our brothers and sisters in Punjab require their own state ( Again 2020 is approaching fast , I don't see this being televised or how the organisations are trying to educate the people from Punjab as to it's benefits).

May waheguru give us power and guidance to do the right thing even when numbers are low we can only hope and pray.

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On 5/7/2017 at 7:05 AM, AjeetSinghPunjabi said:

 I have a feeling most of punjabi sikh kaum are known to be show off kind of people . And our enemies know it well and exploit it.

I think this is what it boils down too. Apnay aren't half as clever as they like to think they are (in relation to other prominent communities/race), and apnay's relativily childlike deviousness gets seen from 10 miles away but other more prudent, strategic communities.  Also our people's egos are off the scale,  and people DO pander to this to manipulate us. And whilst most apnay are of this ilk, a certain prominent rural subsection of the community have got this problem to some next degree. 

So that is why we've been regularly subverted with egoist appeals to our vanity: so we are the 'sword arm of Hindus' or defenders of India at one point, or the most fiercely loyal chumchay in the Brit imperial war machine at another. This 'flattery' is just kindergarten level manipulation in my opinion.  

Even Pakistanis used to do it by referring to us all as 'sardars'. When I was younger I thought this was cool, but when I got older I realised that they were actually saying this in a tongue-in-cheek manner. 

 

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Ironically most Sikhs don't have big businesses in India . We only had Ranbaxy Pharma, but they sold it off too . We have Apollo tyres as well, but the CEO family has hindu names. How many large patrons do we really have ? why do we have so much of ghaddari genes in us ?

I don't think it's genetic (I bloody hope not!). I think it is learnt behaviour. Cultural traits.  I think the loyal, stalwart hardcore Sikhs achieved shaheedi at some point or another, and we have an imbalance of self-serving,  deceitful and disloyal and opportunistic people left now.  Plus we've had a culture of sycophancy that's been carefully spread amongst us since the 'annexation' of Panjab. 

Edited by dallysingh101
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They will act first and think later.

That's worked wonders for us (and them) so far hasn't it....

There was a time when such things were advantageous. And in certain street level  situations, still can be.

But I don't really think pendu style thinking really cuts it in the greater scheme of things in the 21st century myself (most conspicuously in the crucial areas of economy and social cohesion). Obviously penduism has its supporters from amongst the pendus and (ironically) the descendants of pendus who've escaped the pend and actually live in cities and towns (fair play). But pendus failure to grasp (or accept) that people (both pendu and non-pendu) might not want to live and follow pendu principles is yet another example of typical thick brained penduness.  

Pendus rarely seem capable of rising above petty tribal loyalties. So any action they take will only be designed for their own benefit, as much as they might try and wrap it up in some cover of religiosity. All the other Sikhs see this. That's one reason why they get little support. 

If pendus want to pursue a certain path, they should be free to do so. If others don't want to follow that path and go another route, they should be free to too. I think it makes for a more dynamic and robust community that hasn't put all of its eggs in one basket.  

 

Edited by dallysingh101
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1 hour ago, dallysingh101 said:

Apnay aren't half as clever as they like to think they are (in relation to other prominent communities/race), and apnay's relativily childlike deviousness gets seen from 10 miles away but other more prudent, strategic communities.  

I don't agree with everything you've got to say. However, what you have pointed to here is a valid point.

Sophistication is not a trait overly associated with our people. I think this is a contributory factor to the way our people are slow to pick up on others' hidden inner motives.

We have largely been dumbed down into doe-eyed overly honest innocent kaffirs/malechh waiting to be taken advantage of. I believe that certain elements within the Kaum have deliberately propagated this honesty and innocence via distorted Parchar that has become so common now that it's almost fully accepted. I'm talking about the forceful prioritisation and pronouncement of the virtues of innocence and honesty in all our doings at the expense of sensible and necessary political expediency.

I think this played a part in turning some of our people into useful id1ots ready to do the bidding of others, out of a misguided and almost groomed sense of duty, entirely failing to comprehend the concealed inner motivations of those that were and are using and abusing them.

What is sad about our people's wholesale acceptance of such shortsighted behaviour is not only that it leaves them at the mercy of predators with no such misconceptions, but it actually flies in the face of Sikhi. We were actually given the hukam to instruct ourselves and our families in Raaj Niti by Dashmesh Pita. Yet we have accepted what is taught to us by fake sants and babas who have never seen a day's fight in their lives.

Because for too long we have not been sophisticated enough to practice the art of warfare with concealed weapons and motives, we have failed to recognise it when others like abrahamics and revived hindus were and are doing just that against us.

There is a very true saying that it takes one to recognise one.

What I wouldn't do, is generalise that all rural Sikhs or "pendus" to use the urban hindu casteist elitist derogatory term for them are easily manipulable and that urban Sikhs are immune to this.

I think it's far more serious than that. I think all Sikhs are prone to being used and abused like this. And I think the problem is at the heart of our religious/cultural dissemination.

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3 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

Pendus rarely seem capable of rising above petty tribal loyalties. So any action they take will only be designed for their own benefit, as much as they might try and wrap it up in some cover of religiosity. All the other Sikhs see this. That's one reason why they get little support. 

 

I disagree, and you are making a wild generalisation here.

The allegation being made, if I have understood it correctly, is that "pendus" only undertake direct action when some sort of personal benefit accrues to themselves out of it, and they subsequently have the gall to claim to have undertaken the same on behalf of the Panth.

As all of the Shaheed Singhs are labelled with this derogatory term and would obviously fit it by your criteria anyhow, let's consider a case in point.

We all know who was killed in the November 1984 Anti-Sikh pogroms. The innocent people massacred outside Panjab hundreds of miles away in places like Delhi and Kanpur were almost exclusively poor urban labourer Sikhs and middle class urban dwelling Sikhs. They were not rural Sikhs.

Yet these atrocities moved rural Sikhs like Bhai Kuki Gill and Shaheeds Jinda and Sukha so much so that they felt compelled to essentially embrace death in order to travel to Delhi to eliminate the two perpetrators of this genocide who were the most instrumental on the ground in organising and committing the massacres of urban Sikhs, that these rural Sikhs had no personal relation with.

Explain what personal benefit for taking these actions accrued to Bhai Kuki Gill and Shaheeds Jinda and Sukha, and thousands of others like them after 1984.

Edited by jashb
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3 hours ago, jashb said:

I don't agree with everything you've got to say. However, what you have pointed to here is a valid point.

Sophistication is not a trait overly associated with our people. I think this is a contributory factor to the way our people are slow to pick up on others' hidden inner motives.

We have largely been dumbed down into doe-eyed overly honest innocent kaffirs/malechh waiting to be taken advantage of. I believe that certain elements within the Kaum have deliberately propagated this honesty and innocence via distorted Parchar that has become so common now that it's almost fully accepted. I'm talking about the forceful prioritisation and pronouncement of the virtues of innocence and honesty in all our doings at the expense of sensible and necessary political expediency.

I think this played a part in turning some of our people into useful id1ots ready to do the bidding of others, out of a misguided and almost groomed sense of duty, entirely failing to comprehend the concealed inner motivations of those that were and are using and abusing them.

What is sad about our people's wholesale acceptance of such shortsighted behaviour is not only that it leaves them at the mercy of predators with no such misconceptions, but it actually flies in the face of Sikhi. We were actually given the hukam to instruct ourselves and our families in Raaj Niti by Dashmesh Pita. Yet we have accepted what is taught to us by fake sants and babas who have never seen a day's fight in their lives.

Because for too long we have not been sophisticated enough to practice the art of warfare with concealed weapons and motives, we have failed to recognise it when others like abrahamics and revived hindus were and are doing just that against us.

There is a very true saying that it takes one to recognise one.

What I wouldn't do, is generalise that all rural Sikhs or "pendus" to use the urban hindu casteist elitist derogatory term for them are easily manipulable and that urban Sikhs are immune to this.

I think it's far more serious than that. I think all Sikhs are prone to being used and abused like this. And I think the problem is at the heart of our religious/cultural dissemination.

Overall I think you hit the nail on the head there. 

I think much of the lullooness from our lot (that we are both alluding to), has its antecedents from the Christian, Victorian era influenced 'Sikhism' that was developed and promoted during a century of colonisation. 

The sad fact is, when our lot do get devious, they almost invariably use it to screw another apna over. And they'd readily screw another apna over at the behest of some outsider for patronage, a job, money, hell just to look good too. 

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2 hours ago, jashb said:

I disagree, and you are making a wild generalisation here.

The allegation being made, if I have understood it correctly, is that "pendus" only undertake direct action when some sort of personal benefit accrues to themselves out of it, and they subsequently have the gall to claim to have undertaken the same on behalf of the Panth.

As all of the Shaheed Singhs are labelled with this derogatory term and would obviously fit it by your criteria anyhow, let's consider a case in point.

We all know who was killed in the November 1984 Anti-Sikh pogroms. The innocent people massacred outside Panjab hundreds of miles away in places like Delhi and Kanpur were almost exclusively poor urban labourer Sikhs and middle class urban dwelling Sikhs. They were not rural Sikhs.

Yet these atrocities moved rural Sikhs like Bhai Kuki Gill and Shaheeds Jinda and Sukha so much so that they felt compelled to essentially embrace death in order to travel to Delhi to eliminate the two perpetrators of this genocide who were the most instrumental on the ground in organising and committing the massacres of urban Sikhs, that these rural Sikhs had no personal relation with.

Explain what personal benefit for taking these actions accrued to Bhai Kuki Gill and Shaheeds Jinda and Sukha, and thousands of others like them after 1984.

Your not picking up on an important nuance. I said previously, many (if not most) decent, dharmic, self-sacrificing apnay (both rural and otherwise) have achieved shaheedi. I'm talking about the general situation today. 

And people do play down (or are ignorant) of the economic aspect of the Khalistani movement too. When it was going on, it was directly alluded to. A lot of the changes being asked for, did relate to central government's agricultural policies. Which were obviously designed to benefit the agricultural community. To oversimplify everything that happened along purely religious lines is plain wrong.  

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4 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

And people do play down (or are ignorant) of the economic aspect of the Khalistani movement too. When it was going on, it was directly alluded to. A lot of the changes being asked for, did relate to central government's agricultural policies. Which were obviously designed to benefit the agricultural community. To oversimplify everything that happened along purely religious lines is plain wrong.  

I think this is true. However, I for one would never seek to play it down or deny it.

I believe that the thinking behind this was that a relaxation of government policies towards the agricultural sector would have provided real and tangible benefits which would have filtered down to the the manual labourers working on the farm and the petty peasants owning 1-2 acres or taking them on lease, because let's face it, an outright and overwhelming majority of Sikhs in Panjab were and are engaged in agriculture and the proportion involved during the 1980s would have been even higher.

In this sense, I think the panthic committee were being practical to incorporate these into their demands. I sincerely believe this was an innocent measure proposed to make life easier for the overwhelming majority of the Kaum that resides in Panjab. I don't believe that this was at all sinister or underhanded in any way. This proposal practically reflected the demography of the Panth, and to a large extent it remains the case.

For an organisation whose members were essentially always on the run and a fire fight away from certain death, they lacked the time and resources to come up with an optimal economic solution for Panjab. I think they simply had to make do with the limited resources they had. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing, but it doesn't always work out perfectly in practice.

It is another matter altogether that had these demands been met, the indian national congress funding large landowners owning 100+ acres, their own worst enemies, would have been the first to benefit. But it's a consequence of any fiscal policy designed to cut taxes on the poor that the wealthy will benefit first.

In this sense, accusing them of adopting these policies simply out of a sense of "tribal loyalty" so to speak is unfair, and it would have been counterproductive in any case.

I can only speak from my own experience, but I am unaware of such a thing. I'd say the worst enemies of progressive segments of rural society are ironically its wealthiest members, who are perfectly satisfied with the status quo and don't wish to rock the boat in any way.

It is these casteist elitists that are the real problem, and they should be the object of our ire. I believe they are the ones who bought wholesale into and started the whole superiority complex and separate race bs. As an aside, notice how the very wealthy ones that have the time and money to waste on producing music willingly do bahman's work in culturally propagating this same message through the lyrics of the music they produce on bahman's behest. It has not gone unnoticed how the so called "high caste" hindu elitists control the "music industry" in Panjab, and I believe it is no coincidence that every second track produced there cites the term "jat". Popular music is a powerful medium for propagation of a subliminal message. But given our people's addiction to bhangra, getting them to accept that a message detrimental to the Kaum is being propagated and consequently to exercise some self restraint in relation to it is largely a wasted effort. There needs to be a popular alternative instead.

The petty peasant followers of these casteist elitists are simply hangers on who are pointlessly looking up to them to confer some small petty benefits on them. They are simply being exploited. They will turn elsewhere if they are presented with a potentially better system.

We should not forget however that the panthic committee promised to recruit only Dalits/Sikhs to all state sector vacancies for the first 10 years after independence. That would have certainly annoyed a certain prominent privileged class I can think of, which means it is no convenient coincidence that their opposition to it was also the most vociferous.

Even today, easing economic conditions for the agricultural sector, or paying small farmers a better rate, possibly subsidised by progressive taxation on large landowners, would be beneficial in preventing thousands of suicides. At the very least, they should not be prevented as they have been since india's conception from marketing their produce privately, which is a blatantly negative intervention and a complete farce. Our people are perfectly capable of private enterprise when their hands are not tied.

However, the government's attitude to the agricultural sector is not about to change. It views it as a cash cow, and given that its members are to uneducated to know better, they will continue milking them for as long they can. In this sense, rather than waiting for the government to change its tune, mass scale industrialisation in Panjab would be a better and more immediate solution, and is an outstanding and urgent priority.

Having said that, we should not overlook the fact the panthic committee were foresighted enough to realise that Panjab would badly require the proliferation of industry. This was a key demand that still hasn't been met some 30 years later. This is blatantly discriminatory as Haryana, probably the most backward state in northern india after UP and one that confers no special benefits other than it being largely non-Sikh, has received the lion's share of industry in northern india at Panjab's expense, even though Panjab has a countload of factors in its favour, such as a far more numerous and higher educated workforce, most of whom are consequently unemployed or underemployed.

I think if the whole movement was conducted today, we'd be able to handle it a lot better. But that's hindsight for you, and in any case, other circumstances have changed. Given the level of drug dependency enforced on Panjab's potentially productive youth on a level akin to that deployed to depress the Chinese during british occupation, it is a matter of debate whether we'd have sufficient numbers to rise to the challenge now.

Edited by jashb
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4 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

Your not picking up on an important nuance. I said previously, many (if not most) decent, dharmic, self-sacrificing apnay (both rural and otherwise) have achieved shaheedi. I'm talking about the general situation today. 

I picked up on this. I accept that many did attain Shaheedi. I just don't think that so many of them have been wiped out to render a dire situation hopeless. Or, at least, some of them have come back, lol.

There are some forces at work in this mortal existence that can't be rationalised.

An atheist would laugh at the whole notion, or more likely, fail to understand completely. But then again, an atheist would laugh at most of Sikh history, if it hadn't already happened.

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The moni's are the issue here.  There uneducated beliefs as they don't keep hair uncut.  They hide in the herd of sheep's and when it suits them, they attack Sikh history to keep Sikhs from following Guru Sahibs hukam.  Cutting hair is a huge sign of weakness.  They very well know they can commit their wrong acts in sheep clothing without being detected.  If they kept their hair uncut they would not be able to perform their wrong acts as people would easily identify them and the name and shaming would begin.  By cutting hair these cowards can play both sides and do this to hurt Sikhs.  

Edited by Akalifauj
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On 2017-5-9 at 9:53 PM, Akalifauj said:

The moni's are the issue here.  There uneducated beliefs as they don't keep hair uncut.  They hide in the herd of sheep's and when it suits them, they attack Sikh history to keep Sikhs from following Guru Sahibs hukam.  Cutting hair is a huge sign of weakness.  They very well know they can commit their wrong acts in sheep clothing without being detected.  If they kept their hair uncut they would not be able to perform their wrong acts as people would easily identify them and the name and shaming would begin.  By cutting hair these cowards can play both sides and do this to hurt Sikhs.  

you seriously think all sardars are immune from gaddari ? most gaddars are turbaned saabat surat sikhs 

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