DSG

Beadbi Ramgarhia Sikh temple .. Again !!!

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iaree Sadh Sangat ji 

Wahe guru ji ka Khalsa Wahe Guru ji Ke Fateh

They are at it again  . Thread on here back in 2010 

Please see letter attached .

Basically RST are considering in using the hall opposite the Gurudawara for Social Functions ( meat and Alcohol will be served)

Sikh Council UK are on the case 

We need to put pressure on the committee so that they think twice and put a stop to it.

Please email info@rstbirmingham.com or call 0121 233 2647 /5435 and voice your concerns ( politely and peacfully of course)

The more pressure put on the committee the better. Need to be done before 14th september

Lets apply as much pressure as possible ( again peacefully and politely of course) so this can be stopped.

letter.png

rst_letter2016.pdf

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Despite the efforts of a few sikhs trying to make the management see sense , as not to serve Meat and Alcohol at the hall owned by the Gurudawara , they still went ahead and passed their agenda amongst themselves and the first party where meat and alcohol was served ocurred on the 24th February 2017 and many more to come !!!!

Many attempts were made to contact the current management committee , trying to explian to them that no one is against any individual wishing to consume meat and alcohol , but rather the issue being these events should not happen in Gurudawara or Gurudawara buildings as its against Gurmat principles.

So sangat ji , need help as what steps to take next . The thread above( back in 2010/2011) , stating Satkaar committee wrote them a letter , held peaceful demonstrations , Sikh Channel broadcasted panth time from the hall and the management stated on 12th march 2011 that no more consumption of meat , alcohol and tobacco from there on .

 

But still it is happening today !!!!!!!!!!!!

We have approached the management committee , Sikh Council UK , Satkaar Committee , Ramgarhia Sikh Council UK ........ they do their little bit then it all fizzles out . Theres no real body that has influence over these few Gurudawaras. 

Sangat Ji , is this issue a non entity, a non issue ?

Not worth fighting for ?

OR should we make a stand and try to reverse their decision ?

 

 

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That's disgusting, using Gurdwara buildings like that.  The organisations you've quoted should be the ones that sort this out. I'm surprised that they don't do enough to put things right. What exactly are their roles, and why set up these groups if they aren't doing what they are supposed to? Like who else is going to do it, if they can't get through to them, and maybe the committees should attend some communication skills classes, as it looks like from what you have said they aren't communicating properly. 

Edited by simran345
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That's disgusting, using Gurdwara buildings like that.  The organisations you've quoted should be the ones that sort this out. I'm surprised that they don't do enough to put things right. What exactly are their roles, and why set up these groups if they aren't doing what they are supposed to? Like who else is going to do it, if they can't get through to them, and maybe the committees should attend some communication skills classes, as it looks like from what you have said they aren't communicating properly. 

I think its more of protecting your own back. Make sure you dont make the wrong move as we know the people in charge get Solicitors involved , make allegations against you , etc.... but they dont see that a Gurudawara is a central hub for sikhs and non sikhs to get enlightened from the teachings of Dhan Dhan sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj , but they dont see that , they see a building and profit.

Sadly its all a numbers game, a few of us have been trying since August 2016 to have dialogue with the management , but they dont want to discuss.

Back in 2010/2011 ( see thread attached) response was good . People called the gurudawara made their point , Satkaar committee wrote them a letter , held peaceful demonstrations and got them to stop using the hall from 2011 for consuming meat and alcohol . Now in 2017 same this is happening again and response is very poor.

I personally believe sangat needs to apply pressure in numbers , bombard them with their presence be it on the phone, letters or in person, hence why i see it as a numbers game .... in order for them to respond.

But the sangats views even on this thread is very minimal , which then makes me think , the cause we are fighting for is it a worthy cause .

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Just looking st the name of the Gurdwara, you can tell it's not legit. (I'd like to see those 3% or less Brahmin Sikhs make a "Brahmin Sikh Temple", and see how everyone else reacts). Jatts and Khatris make-up a larger percentage of Sikhs than the Ramgharias, (and if we include the uncounted Vanjaria Sikhs the population goes up the roof), but I've never heard of a Jatt Gurdwara, a Khatri Gurdwara, or a Vanjaria Gurdwara, (unless the last one opens these Gurdwaras in their own social clubs). As long as you let these people make their own caste-gurdwara we will only have us vs them, and not a unity among all castes. 

(Why are people proud of their low castes? Heck on Wikipedia some Ramgharia had to lie about the caste of his people for some odd reason) "The Ramgarhia are a community of Indo Aryan Khatri Sikhs from the Punjab region of northwestern India.[1]

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Its so sad i know , but the point here is not about whether they are ramgarhia, jatt ,or whatever ... but do we say what they are doing as conforming to the Gurmat Marayada ?

The understanding I have is that Gurdawaras are registered charities,

Charity commission who register the Gurdawaras as charities have a set of rules and regulations they need to abide by . For example , charity name, the charity structure , who are the owners , what their objectives are etc...

This is where you have trustees, committee which should be selected from the sangat , but rather its more of an election , where only members can vote.... then it becomes a numbers game.

Gurudawaras commitee, trustees should be those who believe in Gurus teachings and want to provide a platform for the sangat to learn and take somehting away in order to make that spiritual journey.

Where these things happen and in this instance meat and alcohol are served in the hall owned by the Gurudawara which is about 50 yards away ? , Should we " the sangat" regardless of background, caste, colour , who believe in Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj and its teachings to be the living guru for the Sikhs especially in Gurudawaras  make a stand or let it be ?

 

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4 hours ago, DSG said:

Its so sad i know , but the point here is not about whether they are ramgarhia, jatt ,or whatever ... but do we say what they are doing as conforming to the Gurmat Marayada ?

The understanding I have is that Gurdawaras are registered charities,

Charity commission who register the Gurdawaras as charities have a set of rules and regulations they need to abide by . For example , charity name, the charity structure , who are the owners , what their objectives are etc...

This is where you have trustees, committee which should be selected from the sangat , but rather its more of an election , where only members can vote.... then it becomes a numbers game.

Gurudawaras commitee, trustees should be those who believe in Gurus teachings and want to provide a platform for the sangat to learn and take somehting away in order to make that spiritual journey.

Where these things happen and in this instance meat and alcohol are served in the hall owned by the Gurudawara which is about 50 yards away ? , Should we " the sangat" regardless of background, caste, colour , who believe in Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj and its teachings to be the living guru for the Sikhs especially in Gurudawaras  make a stand or let it be ?

 

Firstly I don't support community based Gurdwara's whether it's Ramgarhia or any other. 

Secondly they should be ignored just like Cults.

Thirdly if the hall isn't in Temple compound then why create a fuss ? Everyone knows how religious places are established & funded, why fake a moral high ground !

 

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10 hours ago, DSG said:

Its so sad i know , but the point here is not about whether they are ramgarhia, jatt ,or whatever ... but do we say what they are doing as conforming to the Gurmat Marayada ?

The understanding I have is that Gurdawaras are registered charities,

Charity commission who register the Gurdawaras as charities have a set of rules and regulations they need to abide by . For example , charity name, the charity structure , who are the owners , what their objectives are etc...

This is where you have trustees, committee which should be selected from the sangat , but rather its more of an election , where only members can vote.... then it becomes a numbers game.

Gurudawaras commitee, trustees should be those who believe in Gurus teachings and want to provide a platform for the sangat to learn and take somehting away in order to make that spiritual journey.

Where these things happen and in this instance meat and alcohol are served in the hall owned by the Gurudawara which is about 50 yards away ? , Should we " the sangat" regardless of background, caste, colour , who believe in Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj and its teachings to be the living guru for the Sikhs especially in Gurudawaras  make a stand or let it be ?

 

Don't make any caste Gurdwaras!

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Don't make any caste Gurdwaras!

Where there is prakash of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj , is it termed as caste based Gurdawara ? .... No

Again I think we are failing to understand that where there is Parkash of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj , and practices are not according to Gurmat , sikhi principles then :-

a) do we just keep quiet and let it be

b) try to make a difference and keep knocking at their door .

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Thirdly if the hall isn't in Temple compound then why create a fuss ?

Interesting comment . The Hall is owned by the Gurudawara , daswand of the sangat. So do you not think the hall should be used to tell the sangat about Sikhi , abide by Gurmat principles. In Bradford near a Gurdawara a slaughter house was opened , sikhs rallied, petitioned to get this closed or moved away from the Gurudawara. In fact the Sikhs believe Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj as the living Guru. If in physical form Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj was present at the Gurudawara and these things were happening , would it be acceptable ? ( the fact is Guru Maharaj is present , but we dont acknowledge it ) .

 

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10 minutes ago, DSG said:

Where there is prakash of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj , is it termed as caste based Gurdawara ? .... No

Again I think we are failing to understand that where there is Parkash of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj , and practices are not according to Gurmat , sikhi principles then :-

a) do we just keep quiet and let it be

b) try to make a difference and keep knocking at their door .

Interesting comment . The Hall is owned by the Gurudawara , daswand of the sangat. So do you not think the hall should be used to tell the sangat about Sikhi , abide by Gurmat principles. In Bradford near a Gurdawara a slaughter house was opened , sikhs rallied, petitioned to get this closed or moved away from the Gurudawara. In fact the Sikhs believe Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj as the living Guru. If in physical form Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Gobind Singh Ji Maharaj was present at the Gurudawara and these things were happening , would it be acceptable ? ( the fact is Guru Maharaj is present , but we dont acknowledge it ) .

 

Guru Nanak Dev ji conceded in Japji Sahib that even negative & lowly people are Akal Purakh's creation n whatever pleases Waheguru is good done.

https://gurbaninow.com/shabad/18/149

It is their Karma !

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Guru Nanak Dev ji conceded in Japji Sahib that even negative & lowly people are Akal Purakh's creation n whatever pleases Waheguru is good done.

https://gurbaninow.com/shabad/18/149

It is their Karma !

I agree , but do we just let them carry on and say its karma , or do we make a stance and try to educate them , make them see sense . If an individual dont want to then its their prerogative , but i think we should not just let it be but try our best , especially when Guru Maharaj has given each one of us a choice , make a stance where things are wrong , wherever there is injustice , you will see a sikh .

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59 minutes ago, DSG said:

Where there is prakash of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji Maharaj , is it termed as caste based Gurdawara ? .... No

Again I think we are failing to understand that where there is Parkash of Sri Guru Granth Sahib Ji Maharaj , and practices are not according to Gurmat , sikhi principles then :-

a) do we just keep quiet and let it be

b) try to make a difference and keep knocking at their door .

You can't compare normal Gurdwaras to things that these folks are building. The caste is in the name of the Gurdwara, first we have to stop them from doing that and then fight the rest of the issues. If they wanted an alternative name to respect their people, they could've named it anything else: Jassa Singh Gurdwara could be a good example. You will never see any other caste build Gurdwaras with their caste name in front of the Gurdwara name. Caste is more Anti-Gurmat than anything else: you can see, that the old name of this place was Jassa Singh related. We can tell what group still goes the most, but at least it seems inclusive instead of this exclusive title. If someone named a Gurdwara, Sodhi Gurdwara or Bedi Gurdwara, I'd react the same way, when you got so many options, why pick the Anti-Gurmat title?

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49 minutes ago, DSG said:

I agree , but do we just let them carry on and say its karma , or do we make a stance and try to educate them , make them see sense . If an individual dont want to then its their prerogative , but i think we should not just let it be but try our best , especially when Guru Maharaj has given each one of us a choice , make a stance where things are wrong , wherever there is injustice , you will see a sikh .

"Change what you can, accept what you can't"

https://gurbaninow.com/shabad/33/317

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"Change what you can, accept what you can't"

With Guru Maharajs kirpa , we are trying ... nut no one is listening :rofl , as i already mentioned sadly its a numbers game , need the sangat to wake up and provide support , the more people knocking at their door , hopefully they will listen , one or two then they will carry on with their own agenda.

 

 

 

 

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On 4/20/2017 at 0:02 PM, Jacfsing2 said:

Just looking st the name of the Gurdwara, you can tell it's not legit. (I'd like to see those 3% or less Brahmin Sikhs make a "Brahmin Sikh Temple", and see how everyone else reacts). Jatts and Khatris make-up a larger percentage of Sikhs than the Ramgharias, (and if we include the uncounted Vanjaria Sikhs the population goes up the roof), but I've never heard of a Jatt Gurdwara, a Khatri Gurdwara, or a Vanjaria Gurdwara, (unless the last one opens these Gurdwaras in their own social clubs). As long as you let these people make their own caste-gurdwara we will only have us vs them, and not a unity among all castes. 

(Why are people proud of their low castes? Heck on Wikipedia some Ramgharia had to lie about the caste of his people for some odd reason) "The Ramgarhia are a community of Indo Aryan Khatri Sikhs from the Punjab region of northwestern India.[1]

Don't be a naive. Other jaats have their own Gurdwaras too. Ramgarhias are either too dumb to be subtle about it like some others (by blatantly putting their name on it). Or are being brazenly open about it, when some others like to pretend they don't have caste preferences in their committees. 

 

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42 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

Don't be a naive. Other jaats have their own Gurdwaras too. Ramgarhias are either too dumb to be subtle about it like some others (by blatantly putting their name on it). Or are being brazenly open about it, when some others like to pretend they don't have caste preferences in their committees. 

Whenever a Chamar makes a Gurdwara they are practical enough to call it Ravidas Gurdwara, (or something like that), the name of Bhagat Ravidas sounds inclusive, so nobody goes to say anything about the Gurdwara. Now these Ramgharias are being extremely obvious, (at least with the first one it's not obvious and the name is actually in-line with Gurmat), and they just pump their caste. A Khatri could make a Gurdwara named Hari Singh Nalwa or maybe Char Sahibzade Gurdwara, and it's not promoting any caste. A Jatt could make a Baba Buddha or Baba Deep Singh Gurdwara and it's not promoting any caste. Why can't Ramgharias do the same and be inclusive with their name like their original name: Jassa Singh Ramgharia Gurdwara, (take out the Maharaja), and it would be a Gurdwara I wouldn't accuse of castism. But if some guy out of nowhere started creating a Sodhi or a Bedi Gurdwara, I can bet you by tomorrow some SJWs would be trying to shut that Gurdwara down by tomorrow, (unlike this Ramgharia Gurdwara).

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One very important point about the Ramgarhia Misl history that is often overlooked ... is that around 90% of the Khalsa Warriors (who erased their caste upon Amrit) in the Ramgarhia Misl were in fact descended from sections of the community not engaged in the same noble profession as Bhai Lalo Ji ... essentially that erstwhile Jatts, Khatri's, Tanners, Ranghrete, Weavers, Brahmins, Nai's, Saini's etc, etc from a diverse range of backgrounds made up the bulk of the Ramgarhia Misl forces.

What was unique about the Khalsa Sikhs was how they rejected the idiotic concept that the profession or tribe of a person's ancestors had any bearing upon a Khalsa's fitness for leadership. It would be nice if we the youth could at least strive to emulate that spirit by destroying the concept of jaath-paath completely ... with 1 United Gurdwara per locality for 1 Panth under 1 God.

Having said that with Ramgarhia boards are well known to only allow membership to those whose both parents are tharkhan (an innovation cooked up by Indira Gandhi and Zail since 1980) so this action of allowing meat and alcohol at the Ramgarhia Hall (purchased from Sangat daswandh) does not surprise me. 

We need to have single united Sangat Gurdwara's rather than several Gurdwara's in a small Pind or in the same small locality here in the West.

As far as I know even Gurdwara are only meant to be named "Local Area" Gurdwara rather than after any individual (no matter how supreme the individual was ... if I can even use that word) as Guru Sahib reminded us never to deflect from remembrance of God first and foremost.

Can the youth in the West force such a change within the next 4 years? How can we do it? As if we don't we could a minority in Punjab by 2021.

By perhaps flooding local memberships to force Gurdwaray to merge through weight of Sangat opinion?

Joint Nagar Kirtans are all well and good but memberships that restrict a person from being a member (on the basis of both parents not being such & such) sickens me.

Without unity on such a basic principle, the crooked disunity and discrimination-promoting apartheid managements are trying to kill the Panth from within far worse than what Indira did in 1984 or even the 20% of Sikhs the Pakistani's killed in 1947.

The empty Gurdwara sites would be used for the community for sports/elderly/TEFL etc and/or sold to push charitable aims like how Baru Sahib, Khalsa Aid, Sukrit Trust, Scottish Sikh Council, Pingalwara etc to name a few are doing their best to help Sikh and non-Sikhs alike where need is greatest.

Edited by SinghSabha1699

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10 hours ago, Jacfsing2 said:

Whenever a Chamar makes a Gurdwara they are practical enough to call it Ravidas Gurdwara, (or something like that), the name of Bhagat Ravidas sounds inclusive, so nobody goes to say anything about the Gurdwara. Now these Ramgharias are being extremely obvious, (at least with the first one it's not obvious and the name is actually in-line with Gurmat), and they just pump their caste. A Khatri could make a Gurdwara named Hari Singh Nalwa or maybe Char Sahibzade Gurdwara, and it's not promoting any caste. A Jatt could make a Baba Buddha or Baba Deep Singh Gurdwara and it's not promoting any caste. Why can't Ramgharias do the same and be inclusive with their name like their original name: Jassa Singh Ramgharia Gurdwara, (take out the Maharaja), and it would be a Gurdwara I wouldn't accuse of castism. But if some guy out of nowhere started creating a Sodhi or a Bedi Gurdwara, I can bet you by tomorrow some SJWs would be trying to shut that Gurdwara down by tomorrow, (unlike this Ramgharia Gurdwara).

I don't know what it's like where you live. In England it's common as heck to have caste based Gurdwaras. People in local areas usually know clearly which Gurdwara is affiliated to which jaat even if the affiliation is not emblazoned on the sign infront of the Gurdwara. Like I said, everyone is doing it but some are just doing it openly. 

Lately I'm beginning to think it is good that there is diversity myself. Especially given what we've learned about the Singh Sabha movement being historically compromised by Christianity (and freemasons for all we know), Anglophile to sycophantic degrees and overly-politicised.  Plus the way it has just become another platform for some Jut agenda in modern times despite all the attempts to try and deny this. But that's a whole different topic.  

That all being said, this Ramgarhia Gurdwara is a disgrace if they are serving alcohol on Gurdwara premises. 

 

Edited by dallysingh101

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47 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

I don't know what it's like where you live. In England it's common as heck to have caste based Gurdwaras. People in local areas usually know clearly which Gurdwara is affiliated to which jaat even if the affiliation is not emblazoned on the sign infront of the Gurdwara. Like I said, everyone is doing it but some are just doing it openly. 

 

Growing-up there wasn't a huge choice of Gurdwaras to choose from, so if someone was being castist, I wouldn't have noticed since for the most part the Gurdwaras were integrated. (But with the rise of Sikh in my general area there has been more choices, and from what I see my Rishtadhars basically go to almost all the Gurdwaras locally). The first time I actually noticed this was in India not the U.S. where people build caste-gurdwara, (with my own eyes, I saw some people wearing Gatras and Kirpans talking amount caste like it was some t.v. show that they just watched). Also I wouldn't know, because the extent of my involvement in the Gurdwara is at most some Seva, and not lot's of chit-chat,(which I've also seen in the Darbar hall).

47 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

Lately I'm beginning to think it is good that there is diversity myself. Especially given what we've learned about the Singh Sabha movement being historically compromised by Christianity (and freemasons for all we know), Anglophile to sycophantic degrees and overly-politicised.  Plus the way it has just become another platform for some Jut agenda in modern times despite all the attempts to try and deny this. But that's a whole different topic.  

I think in terms of the caste system in Gurdwaras this was mostly started by Ranjit Sio's empire when he allowed Brahmins to taje over Gurdwaras. But I don't think we should argue on this point. That said I do think it's good to know who your ancestors were, and what they did for a living, but not in the Houses of Worship, (any religious place, since these places you are describing certainly aren't Gurdwaras if they discriminate).

But why is it the "low-castes", making their own Gurdwaras and not the "high-castes"?

50 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

That all being said, this Ramgarhia Gurdwara is a disgrace if they are serving alcohol on Gurdwara premises. 

Totally right, any Gurdwara with a caste name and serving alcohol is a disgrace. 

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17 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

1. In England it's common as heck to have caste based Gurdwaras. 

2. I'm beginning to think it is good that there is diversity myself.

3. Especially given what we've learned about the Singh Sabha movement being historically compromised by Christianity (and freemasons for all we know), Anglophile to sycophantic degrees and overly-politicised.  

4. Plus the way it has just become another platform for some Jut agenda in modern times despite all the attempts to try and deny this. 

That all being said, this Ramgarhia Gurdwara is a disgrace if they are serving alcohol on Gurdwara premises. 

 

1. Dally Paji can you educate me as to why that should be a good thing? As far as I'm concerned any community which is divided on the basis on biraderi apartheid at Gurdwara level and matrimonial apartheid will eventually be destroyed and would deserve to be destroyed if enough people don't have enough balls to put an end to this nonsense.

2. Please explain to me why biraderi based apartheid Gurdwara's are a good thing? Indira Gandhi thought they were a good thing as she funded much of the initial push for them. Then Rajiv Gandhi, then Congress and now Hindutva have accelerated funding to push greedy pro-caste anti-Sikh people within our community in this direction (how wonderful for the masters to allocate apartheid segregated Golaks as the exclusive preserve of their allocated pro-caste minions).

3. You mention the Singh Sabha movement in one breath as if it was an entirely bad thing. May I please request you to perhaps differentiate between:

the Amritsar Singh Sabha of Khemu Bedi who were undoubted lackeys of the British and who was chosen by the British to oversee the 1897 Sodhak committee which juxtaposed Sri Chaupai Sahib with the sexually erotic Hindu tales of Triya Charitar. 

and on the other hand we have the humble, sincere and honest Giani Ditt Singh Ji as the driving force behind the Lahore Singh Sabha. Giani Ditt Singh Ji were spat upon and despised by the Muslims and Hindu's for being in Muslim+Hindu eyes as a low-caste Chamar. Whereas Giani Ditt Singh intellectually led our Qaum and de facto saved our Qaum from oblivion that could have hit us between had the Sikh Panth's population percentage (amongst Punjabi's) remained as low as it was in 1871.

Between 1871 to 1947 the Sikh percentage amongst Punjabi's effectively doubled from a small percentage of the Punjabi population which was overwhelmingly Muslim and Hindu in 1871 to 13% of the Punjab population by 1947 thanks to the Lahore Singh Sabha efforts.

Whilst 87% of Punjabi's were still non-Sikh in 1947 without Lahore Singh Sabha parchar the Sikhs may not have had the critical mass in numbers to resist ethnic cleansing in Majha and Doaba at the hands of Muslims in 1947 and perhaps the same argument could even be made of Malwa given that even there more Jatts were Hindu and Muslim there as compared Sikh in 1871.

By virtue of the Sikh population jumping to about a third of the total population in Majha, Malwa, Doaba by 1947 that was a critical factor in Sikhs avoiding ethnic cleansing in 1947 at the hands of Muslim Jatts, Muslim Rajputs, etc in east Punjab.

4. What exactly is the Jatt agenda? 80% of Jatts are Muslim and Hindu (with over half of Jatts being Pakistani's and indeed even the majority of Mirpuri Pakistani's). A mere 20% of Jatts are Sikh. So the British and Hindutva agenda of equating Jattism to Sikhism does not work. Presently, in India, Jatts are a clear minority of the Sikh population comprising 25% of the Punjab population (which currently is 55% Sikh).

However, thanks to Hindutva and RSS-supporting Jatt-castists ensuring the proliferation of apartheid Balmiki and Dera Ballan mandirs in Punjab nowadays (which you seem to indicate your support for) ... Sikhs could once again return to being a minority in even the tiny area of the old Punjab now known as east Punjab (which had become our bastion after the Pakistani Genocide of Sikhs in 1947).

It should be added that the first Prime Minister of Pakistan (Liaquat Ali Khan), the last Chief Minister of Punjab pre-partition (Sikandar Hayat Tiwana) and the majority of those that drafted the 1940 resolution for Pakistan were Muslim Jatts. It's only now that Brahmin caste Muslims (Butts) have become PM of Pakistan via Nawaz Sharif and CM of Pakistani Punjab via his brother.

The best way to fight the Jatt agenda you perceive is not by deliberately enhancing their percentage control of certain Gurdwara's but by ensuring a united Sangat in every locality.

4. If a large paercentage of Tharkhans, Bhatre, Ravidassia voluntarily go to apartheid based Gurdwara's then inevitably that strengthens the hands of castist Jatts that you oppose in other Gurdwara's. We need united Gurdwara's in the next 4 years in the UK as a pre-cursor to the same drive being led at pind level in Punjab if we don't want to become a minority even in little east Punjab. I see no reason why we can't have Panj Piare leading the merged Gurdwara's (even if that means taking one Panj Pyara each from the erstwhile apartheid committee Gurdwara's).

To Bhai Sahib DSG:

Brother, the best way to get rid of the corrupt committee is vote with your feet - if all Sangat refuse to financially patronise Gurdwara's which insists on biraderi purity as a pre-condition for membership but congregate in united Sangat Gurdwara's where all are welcome then that is a solution - however it would be important that such Gurdwara assets are safeguarded with Trustees and the Charity Commission as otherwise unscrupulous apartheid Committee crooks could simply asset strip the property assets once Golak funds desert them.

Edited by SinghSabha1699

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    • Can you provide the exact references as to where this is written in the Gurbilas? 
    • Brother JacfSingh2 Ji, remember that Hindutva and RSS forces are keen to push this genealogy of Dasam Pita as supposedly being a descendent of the Hindu God-King Ram Chander. However, in relation to what is stated in Bachittar Natak below it is not related to Ram Chander but the insinuation that GurGaddi was not chosen upon the basis of bibek buddhi and kamai between 1469-1708 but instead was divided up akin to a business deal in previous lives by a bunch of Hindu Kings enthralled by the Vedas. Bachittar Natak (Chapter 4) Sri Dasam Guru Granth Sahib Ji ਰਿਖੰ ਭੇਸ ਕੀਯੰ ॥ ਤਿਸੈ ਰਾਜ ਦੀਯੰ ॥੫॥
      रिखं भेस कीयं ॥ तिसै राज दीयं ॥५॥
      He put on the garb of a sage (rishi) and gave his kingdom to the reciter (Amrit Rai)5.

      ਰਹੇ ਹੋਰਿ ਲੋਗੰ ॥ ਤਜੇ ਸਰਬ ਸੋਗੰ ॥
      रहे होरि लोगं ॥ तजे सरब सोगं ॥
      The people tried to tell the king not to do so, but, he had abandoned all sorrows.

      ਧਨੰ ਧਾਮ ਤਿਆਗੇ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭੰ ਪ੍ਰੇਮ ਪਾਗੇ ॥੬॥
      धनं धाम तिआगे ॥ प्रभं प्रेम पागे ॥६॥
      And leaving his wealth and property, absorbed himself in divine love.6.

      ਅੜਿਲ ॥
      अड़िल ॥
      ARIL

      ਬੇਦੀ ਭਏ ਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ਰਾਜ ਕਹ ਪਾਇ ਕੈ ॥ ਦੇਤ ਭਯੋ ਬਰਦਾਨ ਹੀਐ ਹੁਲਸਾਇ ਕੈ ॥
      बेदी भए प्रसंन राज कह पाइ कै ॥ देत भयो बरदान हीऐ हुलसाइ कै ॥
      Having been bestowed the kingdom, the Bedis were very much pleased. With happy heart, he predicted this boon:

      ਜਬ ਨਾਨਕ ਕਲਿ ਮੈ ਹਮ ਆਨ ਕਹਾਇਹੈਂ ॥ ਹੋ ਜਗਤ ਪੂਜ ਕਰਿ ਤੋਹਿ ਪਰਮ ਪਦ ਪਾਇਹੈਂ ॥੭॥
      जब नानक कलि मै हम आन कहाइहैं ॥ हो जगत पूज करि तोहि परम पद पाइहैं ॥७॥
      When in the Iron age, I shall be called Nanak, you will attain the Supreme State and be worshipped by the world."7.

      ਦੋਹਰਾ ॥
      दोहरा ॥
      DOHRA

      ਲਵੀ ਰਾਜ ਦੇ ਬਨਿ ਗਏ ਬੇਦੀਅਨ ਕੀਨੋ ਰਾਜ ॥
      लवी राज दे बनि गए बेदीअन कीनो राज ॥
      The descendants of Lava, after handing over the kingdom, went to the forest, and the Bedis (descendants of Kusha) began to rule.

      ਭਾਂਤਿ ਭਾਂਤਿ ਤਿਨਿ ਭੋਗੀਯੰ ਭੂਅ ਕਾ ਸਕਲ ਸਮਾਜ ॥੮॥
      भांति भांति तिनि भोगीयं भूअ का सकल समाज ॥८॥
      They enjoyed all comforts of the earth in various ways.8.

      ਚੌਪਈ ॥
      चौपई ॥
      CHAUPAI

      ਤ੍ਰਿਤੀਅ ਬੇਦ ਸੁਨਬੋ ਤੁਮ ਕੀਆ ॥ ਚਤੁਰ ਬੇਦ ਸੁਨਿ ਭੂਅ ਕੋ ਦੀਆ ॥
      त्रितीअ बेद सुनबो तुम कीआ ॥ चतुर बेद सुनि भूअ को दीआ ॥
      O Sodhi king! You have listened to the recitation of three Vedas, and while listening to the fourth, you gave away your kingdom.

      ਤੀਨ ਜਨਮ ਹਮਹੂੰ ਜਬ ਧਰਿਹੈਂ ॥ ਚਉਥੇ ਜਨਮ ਗੁਰੂ ਤੁਹਿ ਕਰਿਹੈਂ ॥੯॥
      तीन जनम हमहूं जब धरिहैं ॥ चउथे जनम गुरू तुहि करिहैं ॥९॥
      When I shall have taken three births, you will be made the Guru in he fourth birth."9.

      ਉਤ ਰਾਜਾ ਕਾਨਨਿਹ ਸਿਧਾਯੋ ॥ ਇਤ ਇਨ ਰਾਜ ਕਰਤ ਸੁਖ ਪਾਯੋ ॥
      उत राजा काननिह सिधायो ॥ इत इन राज करत सुख पायो ॥
      That (Sodhi) king left for the forest, and this (Bedi) king absorbed himself in royal pleasures.

      ਕਹਾ ਲਗੇ ਕਰਿ ਕਥਾ ਸੁਨਾਊਂ ॥ ਗ੍ਰੰਥ ਬਢਨ ਤੇ ਅਧਿਕ ਡਰਾਊਂ ॥੧੦॥
      कहा लगे करि कथा सुनाऊं ॥ ग्रंथ बढन ते अधिक डराऊं ॥१०॥
      To what extent, I should narrate the story? It is feared that this book will become voluminous.10. Dr.  Baldev Singh from PA in his commentary states: The next three chapters are about the ancestors of Guru Nanak Dev and Guru Gobind Singh. Both Guru Nanak and Guru Gobind Singh are described as descendents of Sri Ram Chander, the mythical god who was a king in the mythical age of Treta. His sons, Lav and Kush founded the City of Lahore and Kasur in Punjab, respectively, and ruled over there for a very long time.  Later on there was a war between their descendents. It was a long war. Shiv Ji with his army of ghosts and goblins witnessed the battle scenes. The Lavis, who were then called Sodhis, defeated their rivals, the Kushis, who then ran away to Kashi. The Kushis were called Bedis after they learned to recite the four Vedas (sacred Hindu scriptures).  Later on a Sodhi king sent an emissary to them with the message, “Let us forget the past; come back to Panjab.”  The Bedis came back and recited the Vedas to the Sodhi king.  All his sins were washed away after listening to the Vedas.  The Sodhi king was so much pleased that as an act of gratitude he donated his kingdom to the Bedis.  This made the Bedi clan so happy that in return the head of the Bedi clan granted a boon to the Sodhi ex-king. “O pious one, when I will take birth in the age of Kaljug, I will make you worthy of world-wide veneration.  As you first listened to the first three Vedas and then donated your kingdom while listening to the fourth Veda, so I will transfer the Guruship to you after I have become Guru three times, consecutively.” This absurd story is an affront to commonsense.  The writer implies that Guru Nanak (Bedi) and the six Gurus (Sodhi), Ram Das to Gobind Singh became Gurus because their ancestors were very pious Hindus, who studied Vedas or were very generous to those who recited Vedas to them.  In other words, it was due to the blessing earned through the study of Vedas or the donation of kingdom to the reciter of Vedas, which was responsible for the reward of Guruship.  On the contrary, Guru Angad Dev and Guru Amar Das acquired Guruship after they gave up their Hindu faith's study of the Vedas and other Hindu scriptures. No wonder, the writer does not mention their lineage or how did they earn the Guruship? The writer does not know that belief in caste and lineage contradicts Guru Gobind Singh’s own edict of Kul Nash (freedom from lineage).  Besides, the first three Gurus did not come from a Bedi family, only Guru Nanak was born into a Bedi family, Gurus Angad Dev and Amardas were born in Trehan and Bhala clans respectively. The writer also implies that Guru Angad Dev was the reincarnation of Guru Nanak and Guru Amardas was the reincarnation of Guru Angad Dev, but the first three Gurus were contemporaries and reincarnation takes place after the death of a person.
    • Don't feed the troll.  Ask poster jonny101 of this troll if you don't believe me.  He's got an agenda and that is to further slander Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji.  When he first came here, many tried educating him but he made up his mind before he came to this site.  He's on a mission to spread his hatred. 
    • I don't translate this as a Hindu King genealogy, but rather talking about the physical ancestor of the Guru: (who is Ramchandar), not that it means anything other than ancestory. The light of Vaheguru revealed himself in the form body of a Bedi, (Dhan Dhan Sri Guru Nanak Dev Ji), and in his 4th form and lasting till 10th form he was a Sodhi. Also when Guru Sahib refers to "Bedi Nanak", he's refering to himself and the Gur-Gaddi, (just how read those lines, if someone more educated than me wishes I'd be willing to hear any other views).
    • If I remember correctly, Dhumma was a minor player then but one who sold his soul to the authorities along with Jasbir Rode and Dr. Sohan Singh.