Jump to content

Puratan Bir from Guru Jee's time with Raagmala found!


Recommended Posts

7 hours ago, 13Mirch said:

Such exegetical saroops have always existed within the Panth. The B40 manuscript is one such example where Bhagat Bani has been demarcated from the Bani of the Gurus, Bhatts and Gursikhs to explain the history behind it. Baba Ji's Saroop is also one such Saroop. We cannot accept it as Gurbani, Per se, as it is exegetical but this should not be made into a reason to cast doubt over it. The presence of Sri Raagmala is enough to indicate that Purataan Sikhs actually accepted this Bani unlike the AKJ of today. I am posting a picture of a similar saroop as well; this one is a combined recension of both the Adi Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Dasam Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Where the Raagmala concludes, the Sri Jaap Sahib commences. The need for such saroops, in the past, is quite self evident if one was to pursue Sikh history from unbiased sources i.e. devoid of the ramblings of white-clad "Babas." 

 

  'Now we have printing presses which produce Birs in hours, but historically Birs used to be prepared by hands. It would take years for such manuscripts to be made and only those Singhs acquired them who could prove that their regions were safe and sound. The last thing any Sikh would tolerate, then, was mistreatment of Maharaj. They had a spirit which is lacking in today's Khalsa.

Now with not many Birs available, Baba Binod Singh Ji (1st Jathedar of Sri Budha-Dal) formed a new stratagem. Acting as the pontificate Jathedar of Sri Panth Khalsa he announced that for those Singhs who possessed the Sri Dasam Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Sarabloh Guru Granth Sahib Ji, they could be venerated in the same way as the Ad Guru because they too were Gurbani.

Secondly, if none of these three Granths were available then 5 Shastars, as stipulated by Guru Sahibaan, could be placed upon a thara or manji and paid obeisance to. Is this idolatry? No because Shastars, combined with Gurbani, instruct us in the conduct of a Siphai. The Khalsa is both Sant and Siphai. This has been since Sat-Yug and will be until the end of time. 

Just as the Khalsa pays obeisance to the Guru's Shastars at Nanded, so too did the Singhs when Sirhind finally fell to them in 1763 A.D. They constructed a Thara and atop it placed Shastars and in this way honored the younger Sahibzades and their martial spirit. The fact that Punjab was undergoing rapid military and political changes did not give them time to acquire a Bir. 

Due to one reason or another this situation lasted until the 1800s. Every time the Poojari Singhs requested a Bir from their patrons, they would be put on hold until they finally relinquished all hope of acquiring one. In 1844 A.D. the Maharajah of Patiala, Karam Singh, begin the construction of this present Gurudwara of Sri Fatehgarh Sahib. 

But it would be Narinder Singh, his son, who would finish the project. In agreement with the Nihungs and other sampradas it was decided that a Bir would be acquired once the Punjab had settled down under the British. But one thing led to another and no Bir graced the Gurughar. Finally the twenties arrived and with them the rumblings of dissent. 

Those who were present told me, in my youth, that members of the Akali Party soon arrived at the shrine and begin harassing the Singhs. "This is idolatry!" they proclaimed upon seeing the Shastars arranged in all their glory. Events took an ugly turn and soon the senior Singhs on both sides sat down to talk. 'Brothers,' began our Singhs, 'please just listen to us.'

At this a few of the Akalis begin lobbying cries of 'Hindu,' 'Brahamane,' (of the loins of a Brahmin) at them but silence soon prevailed. 'This arrangement is a facsimile of Nanded,' our Singhs informed them. 'We desire a Bir but please provide us with one. We emulate Nanded in our conduct and will do so here. On one hand we will honor Shabad and on the other Shastars.' 

But the Akalis wanted none of this. They went to Bhupinder Singh, and through the agencies of Lt. Gen Gurdial Singh and Col. Raghbir Singh they took control of the Gurughar. The beloved Shastars, of our ancestors, were thrown out acrimoniously and our Singhs beaten and ejected for being in tow with the "Mahants." The Akalis rejoiced at having "liberated" the shrine.

I ask you. What sort of a liberation was that? You bring the Guru here after breaking his sacred Rahit? That Rahit which was given to us at the Sri Akal-Takhat and Anandpur! Fie to such individuals who consider themselves as "Khalas" (pure) after committing such atrocious blasphemies! And afterwards this same SGPC would commission a book reiterating their canards. Read it and see.'

- Interview with Doctor Swarup Singh Ji.

13220818_10154381371507985_6745457185723530426_n.jpg

Dear veer,

This saroop belongs to which samvat(year)?.

Does it contain any kachi bani like ratanmala etc ?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

19 hours ago, shastarSingh said:

Dear veer,

This saroop belongs to which samvat(year)?.

Does it contain any kachi bani like ratanmala etc ?

From my understanding it is from Akali Bhai Mani Singh Ji Shahid's milieu. As it is an exegetical saroop it probably does include parables and allegories on the more salient Banis. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/7/2016 at 10:29 AM, 13Mirch said:

Such exegetical saroops have always existed within the Panth. The B40 manuscript is one such example where Bhagat Bani has been demarcated from the Bani of the Gurus, Bhatts and Gursikhs to explain the history behind it. Baba Ji's Saroop is also one such Saroop. We cannot accept it as Gurbani, Per se, as it is exegetical but this should not be made into a reason to cast doubt over it. The presence of Sri Raagmala is enough to indicate that Purataan Sikhs actually accepted this Bani unlike the AKJ of today. I am posting a picture of a similar saroop as well; this one is a combined recension of both the Adi Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Dasam Guru Granth Sahib Ji. Where the Raagmala concludes, the Sri Jaap Sahib commences. The need for such saroops, in the past, is quite self evident if one was to pursue Sikh history from unbiased sources i.e. devoid of the ramblings of white-clad "Babas." 

 

  'Now we have printing presses which produce Birs in hours, but historically Birs used to be prepared by hands. It would take years for such manuscripts to be made and only those Singhs acquired them who could prove that their regions were safe and sound. The last thing any Sikh would tolerate, then, was mistreatment of Maharaj. They had a spirit which is lacking in today's Khalsa.

Now with not many Birs available, Baba Binod Singh Ji (1st Jathedar of Sri Budha-Dal) formed a new stratagem. Acting as the pontificate Jathedar of Sri Panth Khalsa he announced that for those Singhs who possessed the Sri Dasam Guru Granth Sahib Ji and Sarabloh Guru Granth Sahib Ji, they could be venerated in the same way as the Ad Guru because they too were Gurbani.

 

1.The question center of the discussion of this thread was the authenticity of the bir here in question.It was alleged to be from Guru Sahib's time. Presence of Kachi Bani proves it cannot be based on the content of the saroop itself.

2. You seem to make excuses that "its ok" to have kachi bani in saroop of SGGS or dropped into the middle of Gurbani since you view it as you call it "exegetical ". My honest opinion on this opinion, you need to re-examined your faith when it comes to Gurbani itself. If you have any confusion, then 24th pauree of Anand Sahib makes it clear:

in the 3rd line, Guru Sahib tell us those who recite or listen kachi bani are ਕਚੇ . What to talk about those who advocate the acceptance of exegetical into Gurbani/SGGS itself?

4. Your whole post is devoid of any  factual evidence in light of gurmat or crystallized evidence. Ones sikhi shouldnt be based on ones blind allegiance to ones group/leanings. Other than that, there isnt much credible substance to much of what you have said nor anything conclusive. Mostly periphery talk, am sorry to say.

5. If you are of opinion that there are no puratan saroops without Raagmala exist, I suggest you pick up the book called Mundhavani by Gyani Gurdit Singh and see the pictorial evidences he has documented.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, guruvah said:

 

2. You seem to make excuses that "its ok" to have kachi bani in saroop of SGGS or dropped into the middle of Gurbani since you view it as you call it "exegetical ". My honest opinion on this opinion, you need to re-examined your faith when it comes to Gurbani itself. If you have any confusion, then 24th pauree of Anand Sahib makes it clear:

in the 3rd line, Guru Sahib tell us those who recite or listen kachi bani are ਕਚੇ . What to talk about those who advocate the acceptance of exegetical into Gurbani/SGGS itself?

 

Very interesting. Bhaji, what do you feel is sachi bani, and what is kachi bani according to the shabad you have quoted?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, guruvah said:

1.The question center of the discussion of this thread was the authenticity of the bir here in question.It was alleged to be from Guru Sahib's time. Presence of Kachi Bani proves it cannot be based on the content of the saroop itself.

 

Bhai Banno prepared his beerh in Guru Arjan's time, and still added Kachi bani into it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, chatanga said:

 

Bhai Banno prepared his beerh in Guru Arjan's time, and still added Kachi bani into it.

 

Exactly, the presence of kachi Bani does not automatically mean this Saroop is not from Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji's time. nor do we disregard the whole Saroop because of kachi Bani being written in the saroop.  Neither does the presence of kachi Bani mean Ragmala is kachi Bani as well.  Ragmala is in Kartarpur Bir and this is the earliest Bir written by Sri Guru Arjan Dev ji.  Also present in Bhai Banno Bir.  Also present in DamDam Bir.  Also present in 4 Saroops hand written by Baba Deep Singh ji.  

Also guruvah, leave the group accusations out of this discussion because the other side can very easily dish out the facts, which will be very sour for you to swallow.  

http://damdamitaksaal.org/code-of-conduct#h13-raagmala

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Closed conditioned mind driven by ideology, concept, personality, group worship unfortunately unable to see infinite ocean wisdom of Guru maharaj as its not open and receptive towards it. It's life is just like frog being conditioned to only well. Good news is its only psychological not biological limitations and super good news is that closed conditioned mind is one step away from full embrace from Guru sahib all it had to do is drop its conditioning and go back to its innocence of open and receptivity to eternal endless possibilities. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 8/9/2016 at 0:44 PM, N30S1NGH said:

Closed conditioned mind driven by ideology, concept, personality, group worship unfortunately unable to see infinite ocean wisdom of Guru maharaj as its not open and receptive towards it. It's life is just like frog being conditioned to only well. Good news is its only psychological not biological limitations and super good news is that closed conditioned mind is one step away from full embrace from Guru sahib all it had to do is drop its conditioning and go back to its innocence of open and receptivity to eternal endless possibilities. 

Since mods or admin need to approve my post.  I want to ask you, how is the above post related to the topic being discussed?   Go to sikh awareness forum site and this poster directly insults others because he can get away with it as he is the root admin there.   Here he covers the insults because he fears the possibility of being put on quality control.  I'm not saying the insults are directed at me and don't care.  If we want to make this site better these types of post have to be weeded out.  This post brings no knowledge of the topic being discussed.  Mods this is my formal way to report the post and ask if such post are accepted on this site.    

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
 Share


  • advertisement_alt
  • advertisement_alt
  • advertisement_alt


  • Topics

  • Posts

    • yeh it's true, we shouldn't be lazy and need to learn jhatka shikaar. It doesn't help some of grew up in surrounding areas like Slough and Southall where everyone thought it was super bad for amrit dharis to eat meat, and they were following Sant babas and jathas, and instead the Singhs should have been normalising jhatka just like the recent world war soldiers did. We are trying to rectifiy this and khalsa should learn jhatka.  But I am just writing about bhog for those that are still learning rehit. As I explained, there are all these negative influences in the panth that talk against rehit, but this shouldn't deter us from taking khanda pahul, no matter what level of rehit we are!
    • How is it going to help? The link is of a Sikh hunter. Fine, but what good does that do the lazy Sikh who ate khulla maas in a restaurant? By the way, for the OP, yes, it's against rehit to eat khulla maas.
    • Yeah, Sikhs should do bhog of food they eat. But the point of bhog is to only do bhog of food which is fit to be presented to Maharaj. It's not maryada to do bhog of khulla maas and pretend it's OK to eat. It's not. Come on, bro, you should know better than to bring this Sakhi into it. Is this Sikh in the restaurant accompanied by Guru Gobind Singh ji? Is he fighting a dharam yudh? Or is he merely filling his belly with the nearest restaurant?  Please don't make a mockery of our puratan Singhs' sacrifices by comparing them to lazy Sikhs who eat khulla maas.
    • Seriously?? The Dhadi is trying to be cute. For those who didn't get it, he said: "Some say Maharaj killed bakras (goats). Some say he cut the heads of the Panj Piyaras. The truth is that they weren't goats. It was she-goats (ਬਕਰੀਆਂ). He jhatka'd she-goats. Not he-goats." Wow. This is possibly the stupidest thing I've ever heard in relation to Sikhi.
    • Instead of a 9 inch or larger kirpan, take a smaller kirpan and put it (without gatra) inside your smaller turban and tie the turban tightly. This keeps a kirpan on your person without interfering with the massage or alarming the masseuse. I'm not talking about a trinket but rather an actual small kirpan that fits in a sheath (you'll have to search to find one). As for ahem, "problems", you could get a male masseuse. I don't know where you are, but in most places there are professional masseuses who actually know what they are doing and can really relieve your muscle pains.
×
×
  • Create New...

Important Information

Terms of Use