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weareallone

Authentic/Original Kirpan

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14 hours ago, ms514 said:

300px-Gurugobindisnghknife.jpg

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

Waheguru ji, the one from the videos and second photo was meant to have been found after the Guru's funeral. His body, like that of Guru Nanak ji, vanished. His everyday kakkar "small kirpan" which he wore on his body, is at Keshgarh sahib which I have posted before. I don't believe that this is necessarily a "small kirpan" from the point of view as a kakkar- e.g. the handle looks brass or gold and welded on, whereas the Guru's own rahitnama for a kakkar karad ("small kirpan") is for it to be a single piece of iron, but it certainly is very special indeed and shows that the either the Guru was cremated holding this or his body was replaced with this. It is also small and is likely to have been kept in his kesh or serves some other purpose that we no longer know. Nevertheless notice that it is straight, indeed a perfect dagger with both sides going to a point and is not curved like the ARAB knives that is being carried today.

The other example you provide is much more recent- perhaps 19th century, but nevertheless this too is not an ARAB knife. The thing in particular that makes the "taksali kirpan" stand out is the sudden curving away tip and the ostentatious sheath which is very curved at the end. This is characteristic of the Arab Janbiya and no other culture used it. The original sheath was leather and completely straight. There is a loop on the top end. It could not be fixed to the gatra the way it is today so some other form of attachment method would have been there. The stainless steel taksali ones we wear today makes a mockery of everything.

Edited by weareallone

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VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

The pictures posted above are all from either Guru Gobind Singh Ji or Baba Deep Singh per the link referenced.  The small Kirpan attributed to Dasam Patshah from his pyre was a Dumalla Shastar.

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On 06/08/2016 at 6:14 PM, ms514 said:

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

The pictures posted above are all from either Guru Gobind Singh Ji or Baba Deep Singh per the link referenced.  The small Kirpan attributed to Dasam Patshah from his pyre was a Dumalla Shastar.

You can't believe websites without research. It is easy to paste photos and label them incorrectly. For the three photos in the link you referenced:

1. The two shastar and khanda are decorative dumalla shaster belong to Bagrian family in Sangrur. These never belonged to the Guru. They probably date to the 19th century as per style and usage (the Guru and his Sikhs did not carry symbolic/decorative dumalla shaster- only real full size usable shastar, whether in kamarkasa, gatra, dumalla, arms, legs or back. Dumalla shastar, particularly symbolic Khanda become very popular in the 19th century especially amongst Nihangs and Sikh reformists, including ironically Baba Ram Singh of Namdhari fame- as per historical accounts and paintings).

phoca_thumb_l_Small-Sri-Sahib.jpg

2. Baba Deep singh's "small (kakkar) kirpan" which is at Akal takht Sahib, which I have already posted before in this thread. The other examples in this photo are probably not authentic for reasons highlighted above. At Akal Takt sahib, they display this "small kirpan" and the Baba ji's full sized chakar and khanda (likely used for Amrit Sanchar) from the photo, to the public during their Purtan Shastar display session and not these small symbolic so called dumalla shaster, which I doubt was ever worn for reasons highlighted above.

2184019561_7197f01a99-150x150.jpg

3. The small artefact that is supposed to have been recovered from funeral pyre. Purpose unknown. It was not a dumalla shastar and purpose is unknown. Even if story is to be believed, provenance is not known. How did it reach Damdami taksal? Who claimed to have found it?

300px-Gurugobindisnghknife-150x150.jpg

Once again I will stress that I have started this thread specifically asking for information on the "small kakkar kirpan" as per authentic and verifiable sources, and not shaster, dumalla shastar, decorative pieces etc. There are few more examples of Gurdwaras holding "small kirpan" of famous Sikhs around India. Mata Sahib kaur e.g. in Delhi, which is supposed to be straight like Baba Deep Singh's. I will confirm this shortly. There must be other such examples. The Guru and Sikhs had access to so much Shaster that even if they once looked or set hand on it, Gurdwaras claim it was "theirs". Only some unique aretefacts such as kanga, kach, chola, and karad "small kirpan" are likely to have worn by them and out of these, only their single karad "small kirpan" worn 24/7 till death.

Edited by weareallone

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VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Do you have approximate size measurement of the overall length, blade and handle?  Spine thickness and other measurements or approximations would help. 

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On 08/08/2016 at 8:20 PM, ms514 said:

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Do you have approximate size measurement of the overall length, blade and handle?  Spine thickness and other measurements or approximations would help. 

waheguru  ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

I'm so sorry I missed your post. I have been delayed travelling to Anandpur Sahib to get the measurements. In fact I plan to visit next week. I doubt they will let me touch Guru Sahib's artefacts but perhaps they may allow someone well respected to take measurements. Any suggestions are welcome.

From the photos whilst exact measurements are not clear (possibly 7-8 inches blade, 12-14" total), proportions may be deduced i.e. ratio of blade:handle is 4:3 (meaning long handle), handle is quite narrow/roundish and the blade straight curving inwards slightly at the end. The sheath is leather and is long enough to hold the blade and 1/3 of the handle.

As an update I ran into an old Nihang Singh who was carrying a puratan kakkar kirpan which was straight. He also happened to have a curved tip knife which resembled the standard taksali kirpan, which he himself said was an arab knife. Some locally made/puratan nihang kakkar kirpans are apparently straight.

Exact measurements will have to be taken from the original. It should not be too difficult for good sarbloh wale to reproduce. Any contacts will be helpful.

 

 

 

 

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