weareallone

Authentic/Original Kirpan

36 posts in this topic

19 hours ago, ms514 said:

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

"Anything with a separate handle is not a kakkar kirpan."

I have heard this before, but this was never qualified with a reference, rehatnamae or other evidence.  True, the two Kirpan pictures of Guru Sahib and Baba Deep Singh appear to of one piece, but longer Sri Sahib's could not then be Kirpans as their handles are not forged from the same piece of Sarbloh.

This also brings into question whether a full tang shastar with handles pinned to its side still constitutes a Kirpan, or do the handle slabs somehow disqualify it from being a Kirpan.  But at the root, the question is where the reference or source of the one piece of Sarbloh (whose base composition itself is still somewhat controversial as to which variant of carbon steel is Sarbloh) is.  

Any such source or reference would most appreciated.

 

1. Sarbloh itself means "completely iron", not just iron, which is loh(a). This implies no other material added or attached, such as an alloy or welded handle.

2. You will find Dasam/Sarblog granth experts who can give you information on the spiritual energy aspect of being in direct contact with the iron. The Sarbloh bibekis can also tell you more about this I'm sure. They have a lot of knowledge of Sarbloh.

3. Sri sahibs is a kirpan but it is not a "kakkar". Again I will differentiate: the Guru gave the kakkar. The sri sahib kirpan is a shastar. The so called "small kirpan" is a separate kakkar, that was originally called Karad in all rehatnamas. The sri sahib cannot be and has never been used to bless degh. It was never and cannot be worn 24/7 etc. The handle is typically welded on with a different material for battle purposes. Meanwhile the kakkar serves a different purpose and requires direct contact with the iron on the handle. If it is full tang, the material (wood/ivory) should be removed.

4. There is apparently purtan maryada. You will find that Taksali maryada requires this and they claim to have maintained this from historical practice. This following discussion will answer your questions in detail. You can contact the person there for details: http://gurmatbibek.com/forum/read.php?3,1069

Edited by weareallone

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Having done some further research I believe that I have found some information that can help to answer this question: The concept of "5Ks" is one that Sikhs take for granted. Certainly I have always taken it for granted. However further research shows that what is presently known as the 5Ks was settled by the Singh sabha movement. It turns out that nearly all 18th century rahitnamas or references to the kakkars use the terminology "kar(a)d [short second 'a' sound- krD in Punjabi], or more specifically "sarbloh karad" rather than "kirpan". "Kirpan" is either not mentioned at all, or mentioned separately as a reference to shastar to be worn. The karad is taken by Punjabi/Hind speakers to mean kharag (sword), and therefore synonymous with sri sahib and therefore kirpan. This is very significant: The karad is not an Indian Kharag, but rather it is a style of Persian KARAD knife which matches EXACTLY what Guru Gobind Singh ji himself and all the other Sikhs (as so far determined) wore including the sheath (Also note that the Karad sheath is noteably unique in that it is leather and elongated as to partially cover the handle). The word Karad itself is Persian and not Pujabi and in Persian it does not mean sword. You will see reference to this below.

The Karad is stated to be a Persian knife "Mostly used in the 18th century and before" (wikipedia). This could either be that the Guru made the Karad knife mainstream (we know he spoke fluent Persian) and so it is now taken to be a Persian knife, or that it just so happens by coincidence that the Karad knife was mostly used exactly after the Guru started the Khalsa. Needless to say that regardless of what a "small kirpan" looks like, the Guru would have given instructions for it to be made with Shabad etc and it has a unique significance to Sikhs.

I've now found several documented cases of what are described to be "kirpans" that match the Guru's own "small kirpan", i.e. a Karad knife which has a unique thin round long handle and is fully made of iron. I have recently posted several more examples. Interestingly Damdami taksal also claims to have the Guru's "small kirpan".

Edit: I posted the image before- it further demonstrates the fact that the original "small kirpan" was straight/dagger edged. As to the authenticity of this Taksali artefact, I am working on it and will report back, as the Guru's own "small kirpan" (the one he wore daily) is at Keshgarh sahib.

Search for yourself what a Persian Karad knife looks like (its commonly spelled “Kard” in English). Note that handles are just covers, they are full tang as shown below, so the same as a single piece taksali but in shape and sheath:

photo+3+(2).JPGIMG_20130510_110110.jpgurgh.JPGphoto+3+(3).JPGhttp://ancientpoint.com/imgs/a/g/j/v/g/antique_ottoman_iran_double_sliding_kard_knife_gold_overlaid_khanjar_no_shamshir_1_thumb2_lgw.jpg17158150_1_l.jpg


You can find some good research in this Thesis entitled "THE EVOLUTION OF THE “FIVE Ks” WITHIN SIKH TEXTS" by Parminder Singh Kairo, Department of Theology and Religion, The University of Birmingham January 2015.

Just to shed some light on the karad and kirpan in 5K's as per the research: The earliest reference to 5k's is an alleged hukamnama reproduced by Mansukhani (1989). This is however accepted as being a forgery that was written very recently. There is however an authentic hukamnama requiring all Khalsa to bear panj hathiar, but that this goes back to Guru Hargobind and it is accepted that the Guru specifically gave articles of faith to the Khalsa.

Koer  Singh’s  Gurbilās  Pātashāhī  Das  completed  in  1751 states these as being the following 5: 

Dohara: shastr mel gur sabad so, kachh kesan sad prem, karad rakhani panch ey tajai na kab hi nem 

One  should  always  love  the  company  of  shastar,  gur
shabad), kachh, and kes. The wearing of the karad makes the
total five, and one should never abandon them from the daily disciple (translation).

All the accepted 18th century rahitnama refer to karad and not kirpan (3 foot shastar). Bhai Nand lal also states Karad in a Persian couplet:

nishan-i-sikkhī in pańj haraf kāf
hargiz nā bāshad in pańj mu‘ āf;
Kara, karad kachha, kangha bi dan,
Bina kes hech ast jumla nishan.

The Five Ks are the emblems of the Sikh. These five are most incumbent,
steel bangle, big knife, shorts and a comb; without unshorn hair the other four
are of no significance. (Nand Lal cited in McLeod: 2003: 204-205).

This is the earliest reference to the kakkas and it is very clear that it is “karad” "and not “kirpan”.

To back this up, Sarab Loh Granth mentions mudras of kachh (5 garments), kes (5 body kakkars) and kirpan (5 shastars including Sri Sahib kirpan). The 5 garments and 5 shasters are not of interest here but the 5 body kakkars are of interest. The kirpan (3 foot sri sahib) therefore is clearly under the category of shastar, both as the desirable shastar and representing a list of 5 shastar that all Khalsa have to carry (in addition to the kakkar), so a 3 foot sri sahib kirpan is required by Khalsa.

The earliest construct of modern day 5Ks comes from Earnest Trumpp, the first European to publish a translation of Guru Grant Sahib Ji. His list of 5 are kes, kanghā, karad, kirpān and kacch, further showing that karad and kirpan are separate things and that the British were well aware of this.

Analysis

1.      What is understood to be Khalsa kakkars was recently formulated and agreed upon by Singh Sabha.

2.      The original requirement is for Sarbloh Karad (Persian knife) and not kirpan (3 foot sri sahib) as a 24/7 kakkar.

3.      It is widely documented and well understood that the Guru and Khalsa wore “small kirpan” (knife) and “large kirpan” (sri sahib) and that the “small kirpan” was the kakkar and the latter, the (mandatory) shastar.

4.      The 3 foot sri sahib cannot be used for the same purpose as the “small kirpan”, i.e. blessing degh, wearing 24/7 and meeting the spiritual requirements of “Sarbloh”, which means “all of iron” and not just “iron” (loha).

5.      Original rahitnama asks for iron karad. There is purtan maryada which requires this to be sarbloh (i.e. fully iron). Shastars including Sri Sahibs and other daggers almost always have a separate welded handle (typically made of another material).

6.      The Guru’s (and several other examples found) “small kirpan”/”kakkar kirpan” is identical in design to the Persian Karad, which has a sharp straight edge for piercing. This includes the leather sheath which uniquely for a Persian Karad partly covers the handle. The Persian Karad is always a single piece of metal, sometimes with wood/ivory on top (full tang). The Guru’s “small kirpan” doesn’t have this handle covering for Sarbloh spiritual purposes.

7.      Khalsa rehit with regard to the body is understood to consist of clothing, kakkars and shastars. All of these were worn by the original Khalsa. 19th century, only Nihangs and others were maintaining this. First to capitulate to society’s demands were Kaurs who went straight back to look like Hindu housewives. Then the Singhs stopped carrying Shastar, but many still carried kirpan (large and small). Then the turban style changed. Then the clothing also changed. British missionaries then took away tanti saaj and introduced harmonium. Then the British banned kirpan.

8.      When kirpan was banned, Nihangs continued to carry both “small” (kakkad) and “large” kirpan (sri sahib), along with other shastars. Namdharis stopped wearing sri sahib and initially carried a “small kirpan” in their turbans, and later this was also replaced with just a symbol on the kanga. It is clear that by the late 19th century, there was not only great confusion amongst Sikhs as to what the Khalsa rahit is, but also regarding kirpan as kakkar. It seems to be the case that somewhere along the line, most Sikhs apart from Nihangs and some small sects were no longer carrying either the “small” or the “large” kirpan. Eventually even the “small” kirpan became lost altogether.

9.      The British were very apprehensive of the spiritual power of the Sikhs and it is well known that they set about to destroy the Khalsa. They knew about the Khalsa rahit (Earnest Trumpp) at a time when Sikhs had lost knowledge of this (Earnest Trumpp clearly specifies that the karad and kirpan are two separate things). The tanti saaj and raag tradition was almost destroyed. Many puritan instruments were probably burned and teachers killed. As only Nihangs and small groups were maintaining the full Khalsa rahit and had a bounty on their heads, it is possible that the British confiscated and destroyed many “small” kirpans. Either they purposefully introduced the Arab Knife to replace both the karad and kirpan, as a symbolic version of the kirpan (whilst cleverly getting rid of our karads and further diminishing our spiritual energies), or some clever nut in the Sikh Reform movement, perhaps associated with the Taksalis came up with the Taksali kirpan (copied directly from Arab Design, even the sheath is 100% Arab and was not in existence in the 18th century amongst Sikhs), as a “symbolic kirpan” that satisfies new British rules that began to permit symbolic kirpans.

10.  By the time the Sikh reform movements came into being, the concept of a separate “small” kirpan as kakkar and “large” kirpan as a shastar was so badly distorted by British rule that they could took the 3 foot kirpan as being the kakkar. This, even though it cannot be a kakkar, even through they had the knowledge and in their possession the early karad examples and the fact that they were using sarbloh (single iron piece) “small” kirpans for blessing the degh and not a sri sahib, which has never been used by anyone to bless the degh. In any case, the Singh Sabha (as per extensive research report cited above) decided to go ahead with “kirpan” as the kakkar, symbolic version to be worn and be used for degh purposes also.

11.  In the modern area, the “small” and “large” kirpans have become merged in people’s mind as one and the same thing. People including myself until today believed that the 3 foot kirpan was one of the 5Ks, and that the “small” kirpan was just a modern invention because of British rule; a symbolic small version of the larger sri sahib.

12.  Yet we have the knowledge that Khalsa have always worn what we today are calling “small” and “large” “kirpans” as two separate things, with the “small kirpan” being the kakkar and in complete opposition to the fact that we think that the “small” kirpan was a modern invention; a symbolic small sri sahib, a “small kirpan” fully made of iron, has always been used for degh purposes and was always carried separately. Even today many some Nihangs will have a rough and ready "small kirpan" somewhere in their dastaar, Nanaksaris will carry a sarbloh kirpan without sheath under their clothes etc and various groups wear the "small kirpan" as separate to a sri sahib kirpan, albeit in the fake Arab taksali style.

Conclusion.

1.      The knowledge that the kakkar is karad and not kirpan has been lost.

2.      Most people believe that 3 foot kirpan is the authentic kakkar.

3.      Most people do not know that Khalsa always carried a small knife and that this was the kakkar and the kirpan was a shastar (which was also mandatory).

4.      British rule and loss of knowledge amongst Sikhs brought confusion as to Khalsa Rehit in many matters.

5.      Sikh reform movement declared kirpan as kakkar even through all the rahitnama and writing declare it to be karad. Karad was taken to mean synonymous with sword, and therefore kirpan. This is excusable for someone only knowing Punjabi/Hindu, where Kharag is sword, but the word Karad, from which Kharag is probably derived, is itself Persian.

6.      The Guru’s and his Sikhs (what we call) “small kirpans” are the Persian Karad knife, in sarbloh (fully iron/full tang handle not coated with wood).

7.      The Taksali kirpan combines features of the karad in that it is sarbloh, but copies the shape and design (including sheath) of the Arab Janbiya dagger, in particular the end curve and sheath with very sharp curve. (Edited) This is in spite of the fact that the Damdami Taksal has a historic "small kirpan" in its possession that is more straight (but it may not be authentic due to taksali style handle- I am searching for its provenance).

8.      Curved daggers existed as shastars in the Gurus time, but this sheath did not- it is a 100% Arab import and did not exist amongst Sikhs in the 18th century. Maybe an old Arab dagger has been the inspiration for the taksali kirpan? I have seen a number of historcal artifacts including "small kirpans" that claim to have some "association" to the Guru (but not his own). Whilst generally straightish, they are lower in quality and have no consistent size, whereas all the authentic and documented "small kirpans" are identical.

9.      The more you probe and ask knowledgeable people, they will tell you that Khalsa have always had “small” and “large” kirpan, the former being kakkar and latter being shastar. However even they are using the Taksali kirpan and have lost knowledge of the original kakkar, which was not “small kirpan” but rather karad.

10.  Rahitnama says karad and the authentic "small kirpans" (kakkar) ARE actually karads and NOT SYMBOLIC SMALL SRI SAHIBS. THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT. More and more examples are surfacing from private collections of the authentic “small kirpans”. Guru sahib’s own Karad, the only known example to still retain its leather Karad sheath was only put on public display in May 2015 after fighting the Nabha royals in court. It has documented provenance. Every single “small kirpan” (sarbhoh- single iron piece/no welded handle) from the original Khalsa match the Guru’s karad. This is because they are Karads. I am in the process of contacting Sikh leaders and puratan Shastar blacksmith in this regard.

11.  The idea that "small kirpans" that we wear are miniaturised sri sahibs is potently false. Sikhs have always had to carry the "small kirpan", as separate to the sri sahib kirpan.

12.  This goes beyond just the size and shape of a kakkar. It’s not so simple. This is HUGE. It changes everything. All Sikhs alive today have been told from the beginning that “kirpan” is the kakkar and that it’s meaning variously described as to “cut through the truth”, “represent reminder to stand up for the downtrodden” etc. This may well be the meaning of the kirpan. But the kirpan was a defensive weapon given to the Sikhs an it may well be that we need to reimage that the karad is meant for, as was originally intended by the Guru. This will not be easy because we have invested ourselves emotionally in what was decided by the Sikh reform movement as being ‘gospel truth’ and especially those outside India have spent their lives explaining to others that the kirpan is a symbolic version of the sri sahib. How will they accept that not only is the “small kirpan” not a symbol, but the real thing as worn by the Guru himself, and that their kirpans are Arab Janbiya daggers .

13.  Do we even keep referring to our “small kirpan” as kirpan, when it is not a sri sahib, nor a symbolic version of a sri sahib, but an article of faith in its own right that is of utter and great spiritual importance to Khalsa? Do we start calling it Kar(a)d? Unlikely since now modern Sikhs have told themselves and the whole world that kirpan is the article of faith, that the small kirpan is just a symbolic small version of the sri sahib. It doesn’t help that most Sikhs are Punjabis, who have typically been born Sikh families and so carry this cultural and emotional baggage that makes it difficult for them to overcome biases and errors that have arisen over time. For sake of simplicity we can continue for now to refer to this kakkar as “small kirpan”. Perhaps it would be more accurate to refer to it as "Kaarad kirpan".

 I will strive to recreate the authentic “small kirpan” in the style of the Guru and Khalsa. I have contacted certain people. Otherwise I will forge it by my own hand and converse with the Guru. I have had Darshan of Guru sahib but I did not pay attention to the “small kirpan”. This was when I had a very strong spiritual life but the Guru has never left my side and I have been saved when I should have died. I will seek Gurus Darshan and/or guidance in this matter. Anyone who has a strong connection, I kindly request that you do so. Everytime I see the image of the Guru's actual "small kirpan", my breath is taken away, there is definitely power in the Guru's own design of the karad, which is even coming across on a image. I have not experience this sensation with anything else. The British took this power away from the Sikhs, like they took away the spiritual power by destroying Raag. Raag is coming back. Will the REAL "small kirpan" come back?

Edited by weareallone

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On 02/08/2016 at 11:09 PM, ms514 said:

Wahguru ji.

Yes sure, but there is a unique shape to the Persian Kaar'd dagger. The other unique thing about the Kaar'd is that it has a straight leather sheath which covers half of the handle, and this matches the Guru's kirpan sheath exactly).

As to the general shape, you will find that African and South Indian knives also have a very similar shape. Very old knives from ancient civilisations made from bone have this general shape. Kitchen knives probably look like this because of the efficient design, it has no bearing on the discussion here. But you could say that such a shape has been with human civilisation from the beginning, so it must have some akaal significance. In any case there is a specific significance for Sikhs. It matches no other historic aretefact especially since it has a straight single piece of handle without any covering, as there is a spiritual requirement to transfer energy through the iron, by being in contact with the iron directly. All other knives and daggers in history have a ornamental, carved, welded or covered handle. Only the Guru's kakkar has a handle without any covering which remains practical to hold and use.

If you have read my lengthy post above, you will see that all the rahitnama and Sikh literature actually refer to what we today call the "small kirpan" as the Kaar'd (Persian word pronounced Kaarad in Punjabi) and that that this was even known by the British whose historian declared that Sikhs are meant to carry Kaarad as well as (full length) sri sahib kirpan. Thanks for pointing out that Punjabis call their knives as Kaarad. The fact that It is well known that the Kaarad is a dagger and not a sword, does not fit in with the fact that the Singh Sabha movement chose to decide that the Kaarad as given in the original rahitnama, basically means Kirpan. Somebody has replaced the Guru's Kaarad, which is the original kakkar, with a symbolic and inauthentic Arab knife, especially given the sheath which has no relation to Sikhs whatsoever and is only found with Arabs. Why should Sikhs be wearing Arab knives? Funnily enough, there was a controversy recently where the Punjabi Sikh community were in uproar over an actress filmed dancing wearing "kirpan". The director clarified that she is not wearing kirpan, but rather ARAB JANBIYA KNIFE.

So Sikhs have become fools. I was made a fool when I was told that this is one of the 5Ks when it is not authentic. Nobody ever told me that the original rahitnama and literature all refers to Karad an not kirpan as being the 5K kakkar. I was always told that "small kirpan" is just a symbolic representation of a sri sahib kirpan and that Sikhs originally carried only Sri Sahib. Now I know that this is a lie: it is well known that Sikhs have always worn the so called "small kirpan" as the kakkar, and the shastar was a weapon worn as and when required for defensive purposes. Sikhs have already had tanti saaj and raag taken away from them but it is coming back. We must bring back the real Guru's kakkar for regaining energy in the Khalsa.

Edited by weareallone

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The exact shape (and how it is actually made*) is of great spiritual importance to Sikhs; it is not a mere symbol. When I look at even just the photo of the Guru's "small kirpan", my eyes become transfixed and I can feel the energy radiating from it and it blinds my eyes. It effuses raw energy.

Somehow the concept of Kaarad ("small kirpan") has been lost over time and corrupted. Fortunately the Guru is great and the truth has been revealed. I am trying to work with experienced people to recreate the authentic and original Kaarad ("small kirpan") that Sikhs are supposed to keep as kakkar. But like many things, Sikhs of today are not so helpful and stuck in their ways so I may struggle towards this. One person has already demanded lots of money for this sewa, just seeing it business opportunity. Message me privately if you know of anyone who can help with this sewa. I am a craftsman myself but not in a position to complete this by myself at this time.

*Note: How it is made is of equal importance. I would imagine that if the karah prasad being prepared needs to have such strong focus of gurmantar, and blessed with "small kirpan", this "small kirpan" itself needs to have been prepared by a true Sikh with gumantar, and that the iron should come from ethical source. Most iron comes from mines that employ child slaves, displace indigneous people, involves rape and genocide and destroys nature- including ALL of our so called kirpans today- we are not only wearing inauthentic so called kirpans, but they are sourced from BLOOD. Everyone knows the story of Guru Nanak and squeezing the blood out of food. I am just surprised that Sikhs today couldn't care less. There are still some samuri masters who prepare the iron directly from ore.

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14 hours ago, ms514 said:

300px-Gurugobindisnghknife.jpg

Waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

Waheguru ji, the one from the videos and second photo was meant to have been found after the Guru's funeral. His body, like that of Guru Nanak ji, vanished. His everyday kakkar "small kirpan" which he wore on his body, is at Keshgarh sahib which I have posted before. I don't believe that this is necessarily a "small kirpan" from the point of view as a kakkar- e.g. the handle looks brass or gold and welded on, whereas the Guru's own rahitnama for a kakkar karad ("small kirpan") is for it to be a single piece of iron, but it certainly is very special indeed and shows that the either the Guru was cremated holding this or his body was replaced with this. It is also small and is likely to have been kept in his kesh or serves some other purpose that we no longer know. Nevertheless notice that it is straight, indeed a perfect dagger with both sides going to a point and is not curved like the ARAB knives that is being carried today.

The other example you provide is much more recent- perhaps 19th century, but nevertheless this too is not an ARAB knife. The thing in particular that makes the "taksali kirpan" stand out is the sudden curving away tip and the ostentatious sheath which is very curved at the end. This is characteristic of the Arab Janbiya and no other culture used it. The original sheath was leather and completely straight. There is a loop on the top end. It could not be fixed to the gatra the way it is today so some other form of attachment method would have been there. The stainless steel taksali ones we wear today makes a mockery of everything.

Edited by weareallone

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VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

The pictures posted above are all from either Guru Gobind Singh Ji or Baba Deep Singh per the link referenced.  The small Kirpan attributed to Dasam Patshah from his pyre was a Dumalla Shastar.

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On 06/08/2016 at 6:14 PM, ms514 said:

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

The pictures posted above are all from either Guru Gobind Singh Ji or Baba Deep Singh per the link referenced.  The small Kirpan attributed to Dasam Patshah from his pyre was a Dumalla Shastar.

You can't believe websites without research. It is easy to paste photos and label them incorrectly. For the three photos in the link you referenced:

1. The two shastar and khanda are decorative dumalla shaster belong to Bagrian family in Sangrur. These never belonged to the Guru. They probably date to the 19th century as per style and usage (the Guru and his Sikhs did not carry symbolic/decorative dumalla shaster- only real full size usable shastar, whether in kamarkasa, gatra, dumalla, arms, legs or back. Dumalla shastar, particularly symbolic Khanda become very popular in the 19th century especially amongst Nihangs and Sikh reformists, including ironically Baba Ram Singh of Namdhari fame- as per historical accounts and paintings).

phoca_thumb_l_Small-Sri-Sahib.jpg

2. Baba Deep singh's "small (kakkar) kirpan" which is at Akal takht Sahib, which I have already posted before in this thread. The other examples in this photo are probably not authentic for reasons highlighted above. At Akal Takt sahib, they display this "small kirpan" and the Baba ji's full sized chakar and khanda (likely used for Amrit Sanchar) from the photo, to the public during their Purtan Shastar display session and not these small symbolic so called dumalla shaster, which I doubt was ever worn for reasons highlighted above.

2184019561_7197f01a99-150x150.jpg

3. The small artefact that is supposed to have been recovered from funeral pyre. Purpose unknown. It was not a dumalla shastar and purpose is unknown. Even if story is to be believed, provenance is not known. How did it reach Damdami taksal? Who claimed to have found it?

300px-Gurugobindisnghknife-150x150.jpg

Once again I will stress that I have started this thread specifically asking for information on the "small kakkar kirpan" as per authentic and verifiable sources, and not shaster, dumalla shastar, decorative pieces etc. There are few more examples of Gurdwaras holding "small kirpan" of famous Sikhs around India. Mata Sahib kaur e.g. in Delhi, which is supposed to be straight like Baba Deep Singh's. I will confirm this shortly. There must be other such examples. The Guru and Sikhs had access to so much Shaster that even if they once looked or set hand on it, Gurdwaras claim it was "theirs". Only some unique aretefacts such as kanga, kach, chola, and karad "small kirpan" are likely to have worn by them and out of these, only their single karad "small kirpan" worn 24/7 till death.

Edited by weareallone

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VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Do you have approximate size measurement of the overall length, blade and handle?  Spine thickness and other measurements or approximations would help. 

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On 08/08/2016 at 8:20 PM, ms514 said:

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA, VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Do you have approximate size measurement of the overall length, blade and handle?  Spine thickness and other measurements or approximations would help. 

waheguru  ji ka khalsa waheguru ji ki fateh

I'm so sorry I missed your post. I have been delayed travelling to Anandpur Sahib to get the measurements. In fact I plan to visit next week. I doubt they will let me touch Guru Sahib's artefacts but perhaps they may allow someone well respected to take measurements. Any suggestions are welcome.

From the photos whilst exact measurements are not clear (possibly 7-8 inches blade, 12-14" total), proportions may be deduced i.e. ratio of blade:handle is 4:3 (meaning long handle), handle is quite narrow/roundish and the blade straight curving inwards slightly at the end. The sheath is leather and is long enough to hold the blade and 1/3 of the handle.

As an update I ran into an old Nihang Singh who was carrying a puratan kakkar kirpan which was straight. He also happened to have a curved tip knife which resembled the standard taksali kirpan, which he himself said was an arab knife. Some locally made/puratan nihang kakkar kirpans are apparently straight.

Exact measurements will have to be taken from the original. It should not be too difficult for good sarbloh wale to reproduce. Any contacts will be helpful.

 

 

 

 

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    • Vaheguru ji Ka Khalsa
      Vaheguru ji Ki Fateh, ji 1stly, I see a clear difference between amritdharis and hindus because our guru sahib jis have denied certain hindu practices (and if it ever felt like I have said there is no difference in the past then I am sorry for my mistake). 2ndly I agree with sikhs not wearing hindu threads. What I was saying in my post was that I have no objection with strangers in real life because who am I to advise a stranger since I don't know anything about them. Hindu threads are not gurmat.. practices that our guru sahib jis have not taken part of is not seen as part of sikhi to me. Sorry for the misunderstanding Singh ji.. There are a lot of things I've changed my mind on due to the cycle of learning. Another reason why I choose to not advise people to practice anything other than patth.  bhull chuk maaf kijye Vaheguru ji Ka Khalsa Vaheguru ji Ki Fateh
    • Bit of a leap your making my friend by implicitly saying all Hindus see shiva as a devta as 'god' Hindu philosophy has many congruent philosophical threads as sikhi. One of which is that there are many avatars or more accurately characteristics of Ongkaar. The term Vahiguroo is used in the Bhagat bani and to reduce it to a definable 'object'  is no different than idolatry ..  The dominant practices  of Hinduism as well as Islam is what was criticised and rejected.. Guru Nanak Dev Ji taught us to transcend narrow ideas, the foolishness in creating and trying to own the truth.. 
    • By saying the above she is trying to obscure the clear difference between Sikhs and Hindus.  If a person wants to worship the Gurus then worship the Gurus as they taught.  Instead these Hindus are worshipping in their manmat way.  Saying Vaheguru before an idol as a form of worship is no different for when Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji tells Hindus not to worship idols by saying a devi or devta name.  Vaheguru description and form of worship is given in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.  If Hindus want to worship by saying Vaheguru then follow Gurbani instructions.  Gurbani uses the name shiva to describe an attribute of Vaheguru.  But Hindus are worshipping Shiva the devta who came down went against Vaheguru Hukam and died.  By saying vaheguru before a shivling the Hindus are calling shiva thee Vaheguru.  They are being clever by taking gullible people to worship a shivling of Shiva.   Sikhs do not wear Hindu threads.  These threads have some sort of manmat behind them.  This poster does not clearly say she objects to Sikhs wearing these threads because she thinks according to Gurmat wearing a thread is right.  Now in this topic she is going on about how she does not tell others what to do.  She is a bold face liar because anyone can see her objections to Sikhs eating meat on a different topic.  Also she is trying to give merit to wearing threads by saying a lot of people do it.  Again another Hindu fable to get others to follow them to reincarnation.  Sikhs will always have a problem with the Hindu thread because it creates some to be more deserving of Gods worship because they were born in a certain family than another who was born to a so called lower family lineage.  Some threads are worn to keep away evil spirits which is also against the Sikhs teaching.  
    • Is there something wrong with saying jai shri Ram