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weareallone

Authentic/Original Kirpan

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weareallone    31

I'm trying to find some authentic information regarding the original kirpan.

Along with other artifacts, the Kirpan allegedly belonging the Guru (handed over by Nabha royal family after court battle), has recently (2015) been on display in Anandpur Sahib and on specially organised tour. The kirpan is short and there are longer swords and other artefacts- see this link. The Kirpan itself has a sharp straight edge. It is not curved (photo below, top left). The sheaths on all artifacts are made of leather perhaps with some wood on the larger ones and are straight in shape (no end hook). Given the design of the leather sheath, the manner in which it would be held by a gatra would be very different as there is no holding edge. The gatra would have had to be secured to the leather sheath somehow- perhaps the original gatra was also different to what is known today. Leather is used to keep the edge sharp, so the kirpan would have been very much functional with a cutting edge. The longer sword sheaths, consistent with sword designs from the era, have hooks on them for mounting to a leather horse saddle. If someone has high quality photos of these can they please share them.

They look very different to the bog standard modern (20th century) style of kirpan, which resembles an arab knife, complete with sharp curve in the metal/wood decorative sheath. This modern design has always struck me as odd and inauthentic. The recently revealed artefacts are more in line with what has appeared to me in spiritual visualisation, but there are certain missing features, which presumably could have been lost over time.

Who invented the modern style of Kirpan? How many other examples exist of authentic early kirpans, sheaths and gatras (with documented provenance)?

Presumably the presentation of the Guru's short kirpan sets aside the belief that the original kirpan was "full length" and only shortened in length in the 19th century.

 

Sri_Guru_Gobind_Singh_Ji_Dia_Nishanian_1

kirpaaan.jpg

Edited by weareallone

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weareallone    31

Any feedback please? Has anyone seen other examples of this old style of kirpan and sheath? How would it be attached to the gatra?

The original leather sheath is longer than the blade, leaving sufficient space to store the kanga when required.

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ms514    436

VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Puraatan Shastars of Amar Shaheed Baba Deep Singh Jee

 

#7 is Baba Deep Singh's Kirpan, which also seems to be similar in nature.

Thought it would add to this post.

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weareallone    31

waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji fateh

Thank you so much for sharing Baba Deep Singh's kirpan. It indeed appears to be similar.

The modern kirpan looks more like a decorative arab knife (especially given the sheath with sharp end curve), whereas it seems the original kirpan was sharp, functional and the leather sheath functional also with space for kanga built in. When I see this original kirpan, I can feel a very unusual sensation in my body and it almost blinds my eyes with a flash of bright light (only way to explain the sensation), with a combination of awe and raw power.

I am going to try and remake the original kirpan by my own hands. It would be very helpful to find some more high quality images. I will try also to visit Anandpur Sahib to see the Guru's kirpan.

 

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Singh123456777    1,110
16 minutes ago, weareallone said:

PS, do you know where Baba Deep Singh's kirpan and other artifacts are stored/on display?

At Sri akaal takhat sahib. They also have baba deep singh's chakars there.

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Singh123456777    1,110

You can have darshan of the shastars after rehras sahib.

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weareallone    31
6 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:

At Sri akaal takhat sahib. They also have baba deep singh's chakars there.

Thank you brother Singh. They seem to have quite a collection of kirpans, going back to Guru Hargobind, I will have to go there.

Why does the modern kirpan resemble an arab knife (especially given the sheath), when these historical examples are available?

Edited by weareallone
typo

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Singh123456777    1,110
1 hour ago, weareallone said:

 

Why does the modern kirpan resemble an arab knife (especially given the sheath), when these historical examples are available?

I think it has something to do with the british 

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weareallone    31
2 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:

I think it has something to do with the british 

Any definitive information on this? And why hasn't it been reverted back to what it should be, after all the British are long gone. Even the Nihangs and the 20/21st century Sikh preachers and leaders are wearing the modern style. It is only the arab knife which has this end kink in the sheath. It is clear that Guru Gobind Singh Jis kirpan is straight, sharp, very narrow handle and sheath is leather with space for kanga, and what could be attachment for securing mala and other such items.

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Singh123456777    1,110
3 minutes ago, weareallone said:

Any definitive information on this? And why hasn't it been reverted back to what it should be, after all the British are long gone. Even the Nihangs and the 20/21st century Sikh preachers and leaders are wearing the modern style. It is only the arab knife which has this end kink in the sheath. It is clear that Guru Gobind Singh Jis kirpan is straight, sharp, very narrow handle and sheath is leather with space for kanga, and what could be attachment for securing mala and other such items.

I seen a Sri sahib of sahib Sri guru tegh bahadur ji maharaj that looks like the modern taksali kirpan. But mostly the old kirpans were straight.

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weareallone    31
3 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:

I seen a Sri sahib of sahib Sri guru tegh bahadur ji maharaj that looks like the modern taksali kirpan. But mostly the old kirpans were straight.

I am also referring in particular to the sheath. Metal and wooden decorative sheath with the sharp bend at the end is a typical arab design.

Given that there is only one surviving example of kirpan sheath, it was clearly made only of leather and looks nothing like an arab design whatsoever. I have seen this in meditation before seeing the Guru's own example.

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weareallone    31
48 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:

I seen a Sri sahib of sahib Sri guru tegh bahadur ji maharaj that looks like the modern taksali kirpan. But mostly the old kirpans were straight.

Do you mean small or large size? If small, I don't believe that this would be authentic. All I can find is straight (small) kirpans and certainly no arab style sheath. After further research I can find that the small kirpan was always straight whereas the long sri sahib (sword) was shamsheer style (curved blade). This full length sri sahib (sword) is similar to what you will find today in terms of shape but for some reason the small kirpan (which nearly all sikhs wear as their kakkar), i.e. the taksali kirpan has morphed into an arab knife.

I've also learned that Mata Saheb Kaur Ji's kirpans, both small (straight and sharp) and large (3 foot, curved) are on display. I will visit there and report back.

I believe that it is very important to be true to the purtaan kakkar. I have felt it's spiritual energy personally. The on-body kakkar kirpan (as opposed to the shastar sri sahib kirpan- the Guru and all great Sikhs from the time clearly carried BOTH and the full version probably taken off whilst bathing, but kakkar kirpan never leaving the body), has a great significance. It is my aim to recreate this by hand and teach others.

Edited by weareallone

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Singh123456777    1,110
19 minutes ago, weareallone said:

Do you mean small or large size? If small, I don't believe that this would be authentic. All I can find is straight (small) kirpans and certainly no arab style sheath. After further research I can find that the small kirpan was always straight whereas the long sri sahib (sword) was shamsheer style (curved blade). This full length sri sahib (sword) is similar to what you will find today in terms of shape but for some reason the small kirpan (which nearly all sikhs wear as their kakkar), i.e. the taksali kirpan has morphed into an arab knife.

I've also learned that Mata Saheb Kaur Ji's kirpans, both small (straight and sharp) and large (3 foot, curved) are on display. I will visit there and report back.

I believe that it is very important to be true to the purtaan kakkar. I have felt it's spiritual energy personally. The kakkar kirpan (as opposed to the shastar sri sahib) has a great significance. It is my aim to recreate this by hand and teach others.

Just because there are not many examples of that type of kirpan does not mean its not authentic. How do we know what is authentic and not?

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weareallone    31
3 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:

Just because there are not many examples of that type of kirpan does not mean its not authentic. How do we know what is authentic and not?

Historical artefacts can have a provenance (demonstrable line of history of being passed down and documentary evidence to support this).

The Guru's own kirpan matches that of Baba Deep Singh, Mata Sahib Kaur and many others. I have not found a single example of a small taksali kirpan that can be attributed to any Sikh from the time. You claim that you have seen one but show no evidence for this. Where did you see it and what was the size and shape? I will go there and check for myself. All I can find is that Guru Tegh Bahadur's sri sahib is preserved at Guruwara Dukhi Waran Sahib (Patiala), which is a regular shamsheer sri sahib. All Sri sahibs throughout history look identical. It is quite probabe that Gurus before Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not have the small kakkar kirpan.

I cannot speak for yourself but the reason why I am here asking these questions is because I have seen the authentic kirpan in meditation, when all I knew that existed was the taksali kirpan that I wear. I never knew there was any other. Then it came to me in meditation and I have found that it matches exactly, the Guru's kirpan, in particular the sheath.

These are very important questions.

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