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weareallone

Authentic/Original Kirpan

36 posts in this topic

I'm trying to find some authentic information regarding the original kirpan.

Along with other artifacts, the Kirpan allegedly belonging the Guru (handed over by Nabha royal family after court battle), has recently (2015) been on display in Anandpur Sahib and on specially organised tour. The kirpan is short and there are longer swords and other artefacts- see this link. The Kirpan itself has a sharp straight edge. It is not curved (photo below, top left). The sheaths on all artifacts are made of leather perhaps with some wood on the larger ones and are straight in shape (no end hook). Given the design of the leather sheath, the manner in which it would be held by a gatra would be very different as there is no holding edge. The gatra would have had to be secured to the leather sheath somehow- perhaps the original gatra was also different to what is known today. Leather is used to keep the edge sharp, so the kirpan would have been very much functional with a cutting edge. The longer sword sheaths, consistent with sword designs from the era, have hooks on them for mounting to a leather horse saddle. If someone has high quality photos of these can they please share them.

They look very different to the bog standard modern (20th century) style of kirpan, which resembles an arab knife, complete with sharp curve in the metal/wood decorative sheath. This modern design has always struck me as odd and inauthentic. The recently revealed artefacts are more in line with what has appeared to me in spiritual visualisation, but there are certain missing features, which presumably could have been lost over time.

Who invented the modern style of Kirpan? How many other examples exist of authentic early kirpans, sheaths and gatras (with documented provenance)?

Presumably the presentation of the Guru's short kirpan sets aside the belief that the original kirpan was "full length" and only shortened in length in the 19th century.

 

Sri_Guru_Gobind_Singh_Ji_Dia_Nishanian_1

kirpaaan.jpg

Edited by weareallone

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Any feedback please? Has anyone seen other examples of this old style of kirpan and sheath? How would it be attached to the gatra?

The original leather sheath is longer than the blade, leaving sufficient space to store the kanga when required.

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VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

Puraatan Shastars of Amar Shaheed Baba Deep Singh Jee

 

#7 is Baba Deep Singh's Kirpan, which also seems to be similar in nature.

Thought it would add to this post.

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waheguru ji ka khalsa waheguru ji fateh

Thank you so much for sharing Baba Deep Singh's kirpan. It indeed appears to be similar.

The modern kirpan looks more like a decorative arab knife (especially given the sheath with sharp end curve), whereas it seems the original kirpan was sharp, functional and the leather sheath functional also with space for kanga built in. When I see this original kirpan, I can feel a very unusual sensation in my body and it almost blinds my eyes with a flash of bright light (only way to explain the sensation), with a combination of awe and raw power.

I am going to try and remake the original kirpan by my own hands. It would be very helpful to find some more high quality images. I will try also to visit Anandpur Sahib to see the Guru's kirpan.

 

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PS, do you know where Baba Deep Singh's kirpan and other artifacts are stored/on display?

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16 minutes ago, weareallone said:

PS, do you know where Baba Deep Singh's kirpan and other artifacts are stored/on display?

At Sri akaal takhat sahib. They also have baba deep singh's chakars there.

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You can have darshan of the shastars after rehras sahib.

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6 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:

At Sri akaal takhat sahib. They also have baba deep singh's chakars there.

Thank you brother Singh. They seem to have quite a collection of kirpans, going back to Guru Hargobind, I will have to go there.

Why does the modern kirpan resemble an arab knife (especially given the sheath), when these historical examples are available?

Edited by weareallone
typo

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1 hour ago, weareallone said:

 

Why does the modern kirpan resemble an arab knife (especially given the sheath), when these historical examples are available?

I think it has something to do with the british 

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2 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:

I think it has something to do with the british 

Any definitive information on this? And why hasn't it been reverted back to what it should be, after all the British are long gone. Even the Nihangs and the 20/21st century Sikh preachers and leaders are wearing the modern style. It is only the arab knife which has this end kink in the sheath. It is clear that Guru Gobind Singh Jis kirpan is straight, sharp, very narrow handle and sheath is leather with space for kanga, and what could be attachment for securing mala and other such items.

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3 minutes ago, weareallone said:

Any definitive information on this? And why hasn't it been reverted back to what it should be, after all the British are long gone. Even the Nihangs and the 20/21st century Sikh preachers and leaders are wearing the modern style. It is only the arab knife which has this end kink in the sheath. It is clear that Guru Gobind Singh Jis kirpan is straight, sharp, very narrow handle and sheath is leather with space for kanga, and what could be attachment for securing mala and other such items.

I seen a Sri sahib of sahib Sri guru tegh bahadur ji maharaj that looks like the modern taksali kirpan. But mostly the old kirpans were straight.

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3 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:

I seen a Sri sahib of sahib Sri guru tegh bahadur ji maharaj that looks like the modern taksali kirpan. But mostly the old kirpans were straight.

I am also referring in particular to the sheath. Metal and wooden decorative sheath with the sharp bend at the end is a typical arab design.

Given that there is only one surviving example of kirpan sheath, it was clearly made only of leather and looks nothing like an arab design whatsoever. I have seen this in meditation before seeing the Guru's own example.

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48 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:

I seen a Sri sahib of sahib Sri guru tegh bahadur ji maharaj that looks like the modern taksali kirpan. But mostly the old kirpans were straight.

Do you mean small or large size? If small, I don't believe that this would be authentic. All I can find is straight (small) kirpans and certainly no arab style sheath. After further research I can find that the small kirpan was always straight whereas the long sri sahib (sword) was shamsheer style (curved blade). This full length sri sahib (sword) is similar to what you will find today in terms of shape but for some reason the small kirpan (which nearly all sikhs wear as their kakkar), i.e. the taksali kirpan has morphed into an arab knife.

I've also learned that Mata Saheb Kaur Ji's kirpans, both small (straight and sharp) and large (3 foot, curved) are on display. I will visit there and report back.

I believe that it is very important to be true to the purtaan kakkar. I have felt it's spiritual energy personally. The on-body kakkar kirpan (as opposed to the shastar sri sahib kirpan- the Guru and all great Sikhs from the time clearly carried BOTH and the full version probably taken off whilst bathing, but kakkar kirpan never leaving the body), has a great significance. It is my aim to recreate this by hand and teach others.

Edited by weareallone

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19 minutes ago, weareallone said:

Do you mean small or large size? If small, I don't believe that this would be authentic. All I can find is straight (small) kirpans and certainly no arab style sheath. After further research I can find that the small kirpan was always straight whereas the long sri sahib (sword) was shamsheer style (curved blade). This full length sri sahib (sword) is similar to what you will find today in terms of shape but for some reason the small kirpan (which nearly all sikhs wear as their kakkar), i.e. the taksali kirpan has morphed into an arab knife.

I've also learned that Mata Saheb Kaur Ji's kirpans, both small (straight and sharp) and large (3 foot, curved) are on display. I will visit there and report back.

I believe that it is very important to be true to the purtaan kakkar. I have felt it's spiritual energy personally. The kakkar kirpan (as opposed to the shastar sri sahib) has a great significance. It is my aim to recreate this by hand and teach others.

Just because there are not many examples of that type of kirpan does not mean its not authentic. How do we know what is authentic and not?

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3 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:

Just because there are not many examples of that type of kirpan does not mean its not authentic. How do we know what is authentic and not?

Historical artefacts can have a provenance (demonstrable line of history of being passed down and documentary evidence to support this).

The Guru's own kirpan matches that of Baba Deep Singh, Mata Sahib Kaur and many others. I have not found a single example of a small taksali kirpan that can be attributed to any Sikh from the time. You claim that you have seen one but show no evidence for this. Where did you see it and what was the size and shape? I will go there and check for myself. All I can find is that Guru Tegh Bahadur's sri sahib is preserved at Guruwara Dukhi Waran Sahib (Patiala), which is a regular shamsheer sri sahib. All Sri sahibs throughout history look identical. It is quite probabe that Gurus before Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not have the small kakkar kirpan.

I cannot speak for yourself but the reason why I am here asking these questions is because I have seen the authentic kirpan in meditation, when all I knew that existed was the taksali kirpan that I wear. I never knew there was any other. Then it came to me in meditation and I have found that it matches exactly, the Guru's kirpan, in particular the sheath.

These are very important questions.

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1 minute ago, weareallone said:

Historical artefacts can have a provenance (demonstrable line of history of being passed down and documentary evidence to support this).

The Guru's own kirpan matches that of Baba Deep Singh, Mata Sahib Kaur and many others. I have not found a single example of a small taksali kirpan that can be attributed to any Sikh from the time. You claim that you have seen one but show no evidence for this. Where did you see it and what was the size and shape? I will go there and check for myself. All I can find is that Guru Tegh Bahadur's sri sahib is preserved at Guruwara Dukhi Waran Sahib (Patiala), which is a regular shamsheer sri sahib. All Sri sahibs throughout history look identical. It is quite probabe that Gurus before Guru Gobind Singh Ji did not have the small kakkar kirpan.

I cannot speak for yourself but the reason why I am here asking these questions is because I have seen the authentic kirpan in meditation, when all I knew that existed was the taksali kirpan that I wear. I never knew there was any other. Then it came to me in meditation and I have found that it matches exactly, the Guru's kirpan, in particular the sheath.

These are very important questions.

The Sri sahib is in patiala. I have seen a picture and if I do find it again I will show it.

 

PS: I myself don't like taksali kirpans that much.

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9 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:

The Sri sahib is in patiala. I have seen a picture and if I do find it again I will show it.

 

PS: I myself don't like taksali kirpans that much.

Okay. But just to avoid confusion in terminology, by sri sahib, do you mean the 3 foot shamsheer (curved) blade or a few inches of kirpan? I am interested in the small kirpan. There is no doubt as to the size and shape of the 2-3 foot sri sahib.

I can find this, which is the long sri sahib as belonging to Guru Tegh Bahadur ji, located in patiala. There is no small kirpan (taksali or otherwise) on the table:

96e6f3dfd0b40991438fabd3319dd99a.jpg

Edited by weareallone
add photo
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I am talking about small gatra kirpan. 

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Also guru gobind Singh Ji had many different type of Sri sahibs.

image.png

image.jpeg

image.jpeg

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From the handle you can tell that these are not kakar kirpans. These are shastar of which the Guru had plenty.

There is a puratan marayada that makes clear that the only the kakkar kirpan which is a single piece of iron (no separate handle) can be used for blessing the degh.

As per this the kakkar kirpan can only be the style of a single piece of iron, which the taksali kirpan is, but it does not stay true to the shape and the sheath.

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There is a difference between bana and pant-shirt, even though most sikhs wear the latter. There is a difference between purataan dastaar and patiala/afghani turban, even though sikhs wear the latter. There is a difference between tanti saaj and harmonium etc.

For me personally the kirpan is one of the most important things in my life. I cannot comment for others. This has been troubling me for some time and I believe that the Guru has given me some guidance to help me in this matter.

I wanted to see what was available on the internet before conducting offline enquiries with some elders.

I will report back what I find.

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27 minutes ago, Singh123456777 said:

I am talking about small gatra kirpan. 

Brother Singh, please see my comment above. I think there is a miscommunication between us regarding what we are referring to. I am referring to a kakkar kirpan, which has to be a single piece of iron. I am not referring to sri sahibs or any other shastar. Anything with a separate handle is not a kakkar kirpan. There is significant spiritual signifance in this single piece of iron. The taksali kirpan does do justice in terms of this, but only this. It has no sharp edge, no point, it is curved and the sheath with its sharply curved tip and wood/steel decorative style is an arab style dagger which has nothing whatsoever to do with Sikhs. The taksali kirpan has someting going for it but it's not authentic as far as I can tell.

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17 hours ago, weareallone said:

PS, do you know where Baba Deep Singh's kirpan and other artifacts are stored/on display?

I had an opportunity in getting the personal close Darshan of khanda sahib and the haveli of baba deep singh ji in pahuwind village. Col. Sandhu from Chandigarh usually take care of the gurdwara and stuff related to baba deep singh ji. He comes from baba deep singh jees brother family. 

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VAHEGURU JI KA KHALSA VAHEGURU JI KI FATEH

"Anything with a separate handle is not a kakkar kirpan."

I have heard this before, but this was never qualified with a reference, rehatnamae or other evidence.  True, the two Kirpan pictures of Guru Sahib and Baba Deep Singh appear to of one piece, but longer Sri Sahib's could not then be Kirpans as their handles are not forged from the same piece of Sarbloh.

This also brings into question whether a full tang shastar with handles pinned to its side still constitutes a Kirpan, or do the handle slabs somehow disqualify it from being a Kirpan.  But at the root, the question is where the reference or source of the one piece of Sarbloh (whose base composition itself is still somewhat controversial as to which variant of carbon steel is Sarbloh) is.  

Any such source or reference would most appreciated.

 

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Some more examples of Sikh “small kirpans”. Along with Guru’s “small kirpan” at Keshgar Sahib, all the “small kirpans” at Akal Takht sahib are the same, including belonging to Baba Deep Singh etc. Mata Sahib’s “small” and “large” kirpan are at Bala Sahib, delhi and the "small kirpan" is the same straight shape as that of the Guru's. There are several more examples including Mata Bhago and many such well known Sikhs whose personal effects have been preserved. Damdami taksal also claims to have Guru Gobind Singh's small kirpans. These are very similar to the others in being more straight. It has a more taksali style of handle design but nevertheless looks nothing like the modern taksali kirpan.

Edit: I previously made a comment regarding the authenticity of this kirpan, as the Guru's kirpan and kanga are known to be in Keshgarh sahib and that perhaps these were gifts or had some association to the Guru, which I shall endevour to find out. This nevertheless further supports the fact that the early "small kirpans" were not a curved Arab knife, but rather a Kard dagger with straight/dagger like edge. I will need to determine from Taksali sources, as to where their kirpan design came from.

https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2169/2184019561_be0b2d758b_o.jpg32_PURAATAN-533-800-600-80-wm-right_top-

Edited by weareallone
correction

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