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Some Home Truths

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jkvlondon    3,513
4 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

I've asked this before, at what age do bibian think it is appropriate to start broaching the subject matter of CP with the youth, especially young girls?

You have to be careful with your sons, especially if they are mixed race. We aren't in a position to dictate arrange marriages in this day and age. And frankly speaking, mums have to be careful of not being overbearing with their sons (many Panjabi Sikh women are like this, naturally, and they don't even perceive it!) because in the same way abusive dads become models for the types of men daughters go on to seek, an overbearing mom easily becomes the archetype for boys who become attracted to bossy, dominating women in adulthood - I've seen it umpteen times, even in my own family.  This continually locks males into dysfunctional relationships. 

The whole issue of attracting females is a big one for Sikh males in this day and age, where a failure to be able to do so leads to all manner of self-esteem issues and isolation. Especially when they grow up seeing umpteen Sikh females having relationships with all and sundry. 

 

For the record, I don't think them having 'girlfriends' makes them prone to be indifferent to protecting their sisters. If anything it may well give them an insight into female psychology that they wouldn't get otherwise.  

Unfortunately I had to start talking to Isher when she was six because she was groped by a classmate (I told the school that I didn't want to traumatise either child and wanted to let them know so they could get the parents to advise their lad what is not allowed ) . The school was impressed at the method with which I dealt with it and Isher wasn't bothered by the lad ever again . We had to go through the whole talk about not accepting behaviour that makes us feel uncomfortable and how to be safe . Recently we had the full on talk she is approaching 9 and I can see that the fact she is in an 75% muslim dominant situ means she needs to be equipped with the truth( I never BS my kids ). 

The lads are good in terms of running stuff past me , My only take on the whole thing is to be discerning , not rush headlong into stuff as Girls are teases (the pure truth) and manipulate guy's emotions to bolster their own egos . They have seen the clash of cultures so they get it when I say go for someone who is into sikhi rather than other faiths , they've been told to stay away from musalmahs as they would look to convert rather than become gursikhs . They knwo colour is not an issue just the sikhi

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dallysingh101    1,585
2 hours ago, jkvlondon said:

Unfortunately I had to start talking to Isher when she was six because she was groped by a classmate (I told the school that I didn't want to traumatise either child and wanted to let them know so they could get the parents to advise their lad what is not allowed ) . The school was impressed at the method with which I dealt with it and Isher wasn't bothered by the lad ever again . We had to go through the whole talk about not accepting behaviour that makes us feel uncomfortable and how to be safe . Recently we had the full on talk she is approaching 9 and I can see that the fact she is in an 75% muslim dominant situ means she needs to be equipped with the truth( I never BS my kids ). 

The lads are good in terms of running stuff past me , My only take on the whole thing is to be discerning , not rush headlong into stuff as Girls are teases (the pure truth) and manipulate guy's emotions to bolster their own egos . They have seen the clash of cultures so they get it when I say go for someone who is into sikhi rather than other faiths , they've been told to stay away from musalmahs as they would look to convert rather than become gursikhs . They knwo colour is not an issue just the sikhi

Wow, 6 years old and you have to talk about that stuff....

I don't think the touching was sexual by the boy (unless he is getting abused himself or acting from what he sees at home - vicarious learning), but your approach was smart. 

I've got a few mixed race kids in my family, but they seem a bit confused as to identity, what with their 'Sikh' <cough, cough> parent being totally apathetic (maybe even holding covert feelings of antipathy towards their roots due to past bad experiences). Can your kids talk Panjabi? Someone overheard one of my mixed-race nephews talking about feeling stupid because he couldn't talk to his granddad in Panjabi. When you have coconut parents, it sadly leaves the kids a bit adrift. 

People talk about 'love conquers all' and all that, but often the kids from certain unions (when not given a strong identity) are put in a very sorry place. They usually end up either 'white' or converting to some other religion or generally irreligious. Unless the other partner is Muslim - them lot almost invariably seem to ensure the kids have a Muslim identity. At least the kids perceived themselves as Muslim. Our lot are pretty tough to get assimilated into when you're an outsider. 

In future we might see a wave of the offspring of mixed unions exploring their Sikh roots, I hope we are ready and capable of integrating them into our community by then. 

 

By the way, blokes can tease girls too, when they know they like them. You know, play dumb to what's going on. 

Edited by dallysingh101

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jkvlondon    3,513
51 minutes ago, dallysingh101 said:

Wow, 6 years old and you have to talk about that stuff....

I don't think the touching was sexual by the boy (unless he is getting abused himself or acting from what he sees at home - vicarious learning), but your approach was smart. 

I've got a few mixed race kids in my family, but they seem a bit confused as to identity, what with their 'Sikh' <cough, cough> parent being totally apathetic (maybe even holding covert feelings of antipathy towards their roots due to past bad experiences). Can your kids talk Panjabi? Someone overheard one of my mixed-race nephews talking about feeling stupid because he couldn't talk to his granddad in Panjabi. When you have coconut parents, it sadly leaves the kids a bit adrift. 

People talk about 'love conquers all' and all that, but often the kids from certain unions (when not given a strong identity) are put in a very sorry place. They usually end up either 'white' or converting to some other religion or generally irreligious. Unless the other partner is Muslim - them lot almost invariably seem to ensure the kids have a Muslim identity. At least the kids perceived themselves as Muslim. Our lot are pretty tough to get assimilated into when you're an outsider. 

In future we might see a wave of the offspring of mixed unions exploring their Sikh roots, I hope we are ready and capable of integrating them into our community by then. 

 

By the way, blokes can tease girls too, when they know they like them. You know, play dumb to what's going on. 

My lads can understand more than they speak because the lingua franca is english in the house but I insist on throwing in the punjabi idioms and phrases to get them used to conversational Punjabi they feel embarassed that they don't know more vocab but I have gotten in english-punjabi koshs and conversational punjabi  practice cds . My Mum's great she's always challenging them to learn more ... They have a strong identification with Sikhi more so than their other grandparent's culture because they don't like the falseness of the behaviour and speech , just to flatter and preen in front of others . They like like plain talking and what you is what you get ... They've never had a problem picking up languages so I can't see them not being fluent soon .

What I have experienced in my life is that if sikhi becomes part of their natural being , you cannot shake it ... big one because he was traumatised by apnay when he was tiny has trust issues with other sikhs but he still hasn't stopped being normal with me , we have major discussions about spirituality.

Yes gursikhs will be of every hue and world culture , and in that will be our strength provided we make proper preps now and be welcoming and fully in sikh culture including martial arts

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Not2Cool2Argue    347
11 hours ago, dallysingh101 said:

Wow, 6 years old and you have to talk about that stuff....

I don't think the touching was sexual by the boy (unless he is getting abused himself or acting from what he sees at home - vicarious learning), but your approach was smart. 

I've got a few mixed race kids in my family, but they seem a bit confused as to identity, what with their 'Sikh' <cough, cough> parent being totally apathetic (maybe even holding covert feelings of antipathy towards their roots due to past bad experiences). Can your kids talk Panjabi? Someone overheard one of my mixed-race nephews talking about feeling stupid because he couldn't talk to his granddad in Panjabi. When you have coconut parents, it sadly leaves the kids a bit adrift. 

People talk about 'love conquers all' and all that, but often the kids from certain unions (when not given a strong identity) are put in a very sorry place. They usually end up either 'white' or converting to some other religion or generally irreligious. Unless the other partner is Muslim - them lot almost invariably seem to ensure the kids have a Muslim identity. At least the kids perceived themselves as Muslim. Our lot are pretty tough to get assimilated into when you're an outsider. 

In future we might see a wave of the offspring of mixed unions exploring their Sikh roots, I hope we are ready and capable of integrating them into our community by then. 

 

By the way, blokes can tease girls too, when they know they like them. You know, play dumb to what's going on. 

I think even 6 years old might be too late. There was a post on langar hall blog by a guy who hates babas and bana and goin to gurudwara because he was abused by a baba. His dad helped out at the gurudwara n let the kid run around. Another kid told him to go play in the van, and thats where the baba was hiding and trapped him. The baba had used the other kid to lure him to the van. I think he was younger than 5. Of course the baba said if u tell ur dad, he will be mad at u. So he kept quiet for years. And now he has trust n anxiety issues with gurudwaras etc

So, I think its really important to build confidence in kids, and teach them that adults even authority figures can be bad and if u feel uncomfortable, its ok to run away, scream and tattle. And man, we need to fear ppl in our community as well not just muslims. Especially babe, who become  babe for very shady reasons these days.  

My parents always had a suspicion of the priestly class. Never let the girls stay at gurudwara for too long, go alone, and were encouraged to stay away from babe. As i think panjabis fear the celibates, rightly so as the Catholic priests showed. But it was only the girls they were worried about, never the boys....

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MisterrSingh    2,805
4 hours ago, Not2Cool2Argue said:

My parents always had a suspicion of the priestly class. Never let the girls stay at gurudwara for too long, go alone, and were encouraged to stay away from babe. As i think panjabis fear the celibates, rightly so as the Catholic priests showed. But it was only the girls they were worried about, never the boys....

Do you think there's ulterior motives in sections of the contemporary younger generation of Sikhs in the West, particularly those who follow certain traditions and sects, who've latched onto the apparently self-sacrificing idea about wishing to stay celibate and "serve the panth", in order to shield themselves from the pressure of getting married, allowing them to indulge their homosexual desires behind closed doors whilst presenting an image of religious piousness to their families and the community? 

Edited by MisterrSingh

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jkvlondon    3,513

I think that is the main reason that Guru ji rejected celibacy as a pathway , because they said it plain Kaam will NEVER be conquered that way . Plus Guru ji also explodes the whole danda of the brahmins and imams who trick the general population . Sikhi does NOT have priests , traditionally every gursikh was trained to be able to read larivaar so they could do their sehaj paat themselves so this whole substantard celibate granthi scene is a product of our own laxness.

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MisterrSingh    2,805
1 hour ago, jkvlondon said:

I think that is the main reason that Guru ji rejected celibacy as a pathway , because they said it plain Kaam will NEVER be conquered that way . Plus Guru ji also explodes the whole danda of the brahmins and imams who trick the general population . Sikhi does NOT have priests , traditionally every gursikh was trained to be able to read larivaar so they could do their sehaj paat themselves so this whole substantard celibate granthi scene is a product of our own laxness.

The thing that gets to me is the organised nature of it. They think they're being so smart about it, but anyone who can see through bull in general can immediately detect what's transpiring. It's incredibly cynical, but nobody is prepared to confront it. The elders give it a pass because either they're incredibly naive that such things are occurring, or because they've been completely hoodwinked. Give it another few decades and there'll be scandal after scandal emerging. All it takes is a couple of people breaking their silence, and it'll be laid bare.

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dallysingh101    1,585
10 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

Do you think there's ulterior motives in sections of the contemporary younger generation of Sikhs in the West, particularly those who follow certain traditions and sects, who've latched onto the apparently self-sacrificing idea about wishing to stay celibate and "serve the panth", in order to shield themselves from the pressure of getting married, allowing them to indulge their homosexual desires behind closed doors whilst presenting an image of religious piousness to their families and the community? 

I think a certain portion of people definitely do this. 

 

Abuse is going on everywhere - including within our own community, within families. 

 

 

Edited by dallysingh101

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MisterrSingh    2,805

Im not too familiar with the workings of SAS, although I'm aware they perform admirable seva. I was just wondering, whenever SAS do whatever it is to retrieve these girls, do they make a distinction between a vulnerable girl from an unstable familial situation who was manipulated and groomed, and on the other end of the spectrum a brazen thrill seeker who bit off more than she could chew, and ended up in dire straits due to her own hubris? Or do they treat them all with the same touch? Is there an aftercare policy in place? 

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jkvlondon    3,513
43 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

Im not too familiar with the workings of SAS, although I'm aware they perform admirable seva. I was just wondering, whenever SAS do whatever it is to retrieve these girls, do they make a distinction between a vulnerable girl from an unstable familial situation who was manipulated and groomed, and on the other end of the spectrum a brazen thrill seeker who bit off more than she could chew, and ended up in dire straits due to her own hubris? Or do they treat them all with the same touch? Is there an aftercare policy in place? 

well the bibi above had mentioned she was given counselling by the police and social services but it didn't help as much as talking to apne under SAS umbrella. Veer ji has mentioned there is definitely a spectrum , both in the types of girls  and their reactions to being rescued  (some are violent towards him because they are so brainwashed and under the influence of drugs) so he tailors his approach

 

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MisterrSingh    2,805
8 minutes ago, jkvlondon said:

well the bibi above had mentioned she was given counselling by the police and social services but it didn't help as much as talking to apne under SAS umbrella. Veer ji has mentioned there is definitely a spectrum , both in the types of girls  and their reactions to being rescued  (some are violent towards him because they are so brainwashed and under the influence of drugs) so he tailors his approach

 

That's good to hear. The reason I asked the question was due to the thought of how each of these situations is incredibly unique despite the desired end result being the same. I'd like to think those girls who have been raised in a home that is lax on discipline and certain positive Punjabi cultural norms, should be made aware that those undertaking this seva are putting a lot on the line to extricate them from a situation that is mostly self-inflicted. I'd hate to think the naive Sikh girl who is preyed upon by opportunists is treated the same as the Sikh girl who escapes to uni in the hope of sleeping with as many guys she can get her hands on. There's a marked difference between the two, and I'd hope the situational approach from SAS reflects that difference. That's not to say I'd expect SAS to wag their finger in disapproval at those girls, especially during a traumatic period of time regardless of blame, but ultimately considering the service being provided for these girls and their families, I would think SAS are well within their rights to impress the need for certain religious values to prevent any future misshaps. 

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Guest Jagsaw_Singh   
Guest Jagsaw_Singh

Well now. If anyone ever wanted proof of why other communities paint we Sikhs as simple people incapable of intellectual thinking, the last 2 pages of this thread are it. This is what we've learned about ourselves from the second half of page 2 to here:

1) Ignore and forget the fact that our 7th Guru (Sri Guru Har Rai Ji) was the world's foremost and greatest 'eco'warrior' and start labelling others as 'ecowarriors' as a term of insult. And then start talking continously about gay men.

2) Just ignore and pretend that you're not being told that animals are killed in order to make 'Fairy-Liquid' whilst there are some supermarket own label ones out there that animals did not die for. Just ignore the fact that langar in the gurdwara is being served in dishes washed with the dead animal product and instead just start abusing the lady that should have made you think why we make that decision to take the dead animal one to the Gurdwara like un-padhs incapable of thinking. And then start talking continously about gay men. 

 

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Guest Jacfsing2   
Guest Jacfsing2
On 2/10/2017 at 5:07 PM, jkvlondon said:

My lads can understand more than they speak because the lingua franca is english in the house but I insist on throwing in the punjabi idioms and phrases to get them used to conversational Punjabi they feel embarassed that they don't know more vocab but I have gotten in english-punjabi koshs and conversational punjabi  practice cds . My Mum's great she's always challenging them to learn more ... They have a strong identification with Sikhi more so than their other grandparent's culture because they don't like the falseness of the behaviour and speech , just to flatter and preen in front of others . They like like plain talking and what you is what you get ... They've never had a problem picking up languages so I can't see them not being fluent soon .

What I have experienced in my life is that if sikhi becomes part of their natural being , you cannot shake it ... big one because he was traumatised by apnay when he was tiny has trust issues with other sikhs but he still hasn't stopped being normal with me , we have major discussions about spirituality.

Yes gursikhs will be of every hue and world culture , and in that will be our strength provided we make proper preps now and be welcoming and fully in sikh culture including martial arts

Do they speak more Punjabi or Portuguese, (since your husband is from Brazil?)

 

On 2/10/2017 at 3:34 PM, dallysingh101 said:

Wow, 6 years old and you have to talk about that stuff....

I don't think the touching was sexual by the boy (unless he is getting abused himself or acting from what he sees at home - vicarious learning), but your approach was smart. 

I've got a few mixed race kids in my family, but they seem a bit confused as to identity, what with their 'Sikh' <cough, cough> parent being totally apathetic (maybe even holding covert feelings of antipathy towards their roots due to past bad experiences). Can your kids talk Panjabi? Someone overheard one of my mixed-race nephews talking about feeling stupid because he couldn't talk to his granddad in Panjabi. When you have coconut parents, it sadly leaves the kids a bit adrift. 

People talk about 'love conquers all' and all that, but often the kids from certain unions (when not given a strong identity) are put in a very sorry place. They usually end up either 'white' or converting to some other religion or generally irreligious. Unless the other partner is Muslim - them lot almost invariably seem to ensure the kids have a Muslim identity. At least the kids perceived themselves as Muslim. Our lot are pretty tough to get assimilated into when you're an outsider. 

In future we might see a wave of the offspring of mixed unions exploring their Sikh roots, I hope we are ready and capable of integrating them into our community by then. 

 

By the way, blokes can tease girls too, when they know they like them. You know, play dumb to what's going on. 

If people of 2 religions marry then the person whose religion is more dominant in the house usually becomes the religion of the kids. (A hypothetical example of this is if a Easter-Christmas Christian were to marry an Orthodox Heredi Jew, then the kids for their childhood raising purposes will be raised Jewish, maybe even more othodox then the father himself.) In terms of Sikhi if a Sunday-Day Sikh were to marry another faith, the child will belong to the other faith, but if someone becomes a really Rehitvale Gursikh who does Nitnem, Amritvela, Seva, but for some reason or another married a non-Sikh, then the kids will pick that-up, (this is a rare thing, but it does happen).

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dallysingh101    1,585
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If people of 2 religions marry then the person whose religion is more dominant in the house usually becomes the religion of the kids. (A hypothetical example of this is if a Easter-Christmas Christian were to marry an Orthodox Heredi Jew, then the kids for their childhood raising purposes will be raised Jewish, maybe even more othodox then the father himself.) In terms of Sikhi if a Sunday-Day Sikh were to marry another faith, the child will belong to the other faith, but if someone becomes a really Rehitvale Gursikh who does Nitnem, Amritvela, Seva, but for some reason or another married a non-Sikh, then the kids will pick that-up, (this is a rare thing, but it does happen).

From what I've seen (including in my family) is that it is not uncommon for both parents in such situations to be indifferent to their respective religions/heritage. What then appears to happen is that uncles and aunts who do have a connection to their faith/heritage (from both the mother's and father's side) try and pass on the kids heritage to him/her - but often the parents are either low key, or overtly resistant to this. The kids can pick on this and start to devalue what they are being taught as well.

Language is a big issue - because we know from linguistic studies that the tongue sort of forms to stick to the phonemes (the individual sounds of a language) one is exposed to at a relatively young age - so if they are not exposed to and practicing the words/sounds of a particular language from young, there is a cut off point where the person struggles or finds it impossible to pronounce the sounds properly when older. So then, even when they want to learn the language when older - it becomes 10x harder for them. 

That being said, the resources and knowledge about language acquisition has mushroomed in recent years (including within our panth). So if anyone is truly dedicated to the idea of picking up the language - they are in a better position to do so than ever . 

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