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Societal Segregation Versus Sikhi

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Part II of Tisarpanth's Misconceptions Series. Here two main misconceptions are answered:

1.) Sikhi survived due to the sole efforts of the Jats and,

2.) Sikhi was a reaction against contemporary economics.

To quote a few portions:

'Sikh history, and tradition, substantiates that no lapse was ever tolerated from the faith’s ideology. The names of Baba Atal Rai and Baba Ram Rai are only some of the many examples which depict the penalties imposed upon those who, for one reason or another, deviated from established norms. The former resurrected a victim of snakebite and was so sternly reprimanded by his father, the sixth Guru, that he discarded his mortal frame whilst the latter intentionally changed a line of Gurbani and was excommunicated by his own father, the seventh Guru. Summarily we can easily conclude then that it is impossible to assert that the sixth Guru who was more than satisfied to witness his own son’s demise, but could not tolerate any deviation from the faith’s ideology would concede to any demands made by the Jats.'

'Non-Sikh records mention the respect with which the Sikhs treated women, even extending courtesy and safety to those who were of their sworn foes. (19) If compared with Jat practices, historic and present, than these contrast starkly as the Jat objectification of women is a well known fact. Secondly, the Sikh ability to unite in face of a common threat historically is a well-established fact. This principle emerged out of two factors namely a channeling of all energies towards achieving a singular goal, and a singular interpretation of the faith. The Jats were and still are avid worshipers of Jatheras or shrines dedicated to some Sisyphean ancestor(s). (20) With each locality, tribe, clan, village espousing a different ancestor any ideological unity and singular channeling of energy is impossible. The establishment of Bharatpur can only be called a miracle as the Jat unity forged for it’s establishment soon disintegrated afterwards.'

https://tisarpanthdotcom.wordpress.com/2016/04/24/misconceptions-ii/

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Regarding the Jats, what a complete load of nonsense.

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Part II of Tisarpanth's Misconceptions Series. Here two main misconceptions are answered:

1.) Sikhi survived due to the sole efforts of the Jats and,

2.) Sikhi was a reaction against contemporary economics.

To quote a few portions:

'Sikh history, and tradition, substantiates that no lapse was ever tolerated from the faiths ideology. The names of Baba Atal Rai and Baba Ram Rai are only some of the many examples which depict the penalties imposed upon those who, for one reason or another, deviated from established norms. The former resurrected a victim of snakebite and was so sternly reprimanded by his father, the sixth Guru, that he discarded his mortal frame whilst the latter intentionally changed a line of Gurbani and was excommunicated by his own father, the seventh Guru. Summarily we can easily conclude then that it is impossible to assert that the sixth Guru who was more than satisfied to witness his own sons demise, but could not tolerate any deviation from the faiths ideology would concede to any demands made by the Jats.'

'Non-Sikh records mention the respect with which the Sikhs treated women, even extending courtesy and safety to those who were of their sworn foes. (19) If compared with Jat practices, historic and present, than these contrast starkly as the Jat objectification of women is a well known fact. Secondly, the Sikh ability to unite in face of a common threat historically is a well-established fact. This principle emerged out of two factors namely a channeling of all energies towards achieving a singular goal, and a singular interpretation of the faith. The Jats were and still are avid worshipers of Jatheras or shrines dedicated to some Sisyphean ancestor(s). (20) With each locality, tribe, clan, village espousing a different ancestor any ideological unity and singular channeling of energy is impossible. The establishment of Bharatpur can only be called a miracle as the Jat unity forged for its establishment soon disintegrated afterwards.'

https://tisarpanthdotcom.wordpress.com/2016/04/24/misconceptions-ii/

WJKK WJKF

Yea sounds about right....still today within sikhi the jat strives for some form of supremacy over other sikhs within sikhi continuously taking it back to their leanage. A jatt what took Amrit and became Khalsa will always be considered Khalsa, until they then marginlise themselves as a "jatt sikh" and marry within caste and continue to do so misunderstanding and misinterpretating the gurus sikhi for caste supremacy. Usually justifying it with ridiculous notions.

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WJKK WJKF

Yea sounds about right....still today within sikhi the jat strives for some form of supremacy over other sikhs within sikhi continuously taking it back to their leanage. A jatt what took Amrit and became Khalsa will always be considered Khalsa, until they then marginlise themselves as a "jatt sikh" and marry within caste and continue to do so misunderstanding and misinterpretating the gurus sikhi for caste supremacy. Usually justifying it with ridiculous notions.

Can you confirm if Sikhs of non Jatt background also marry "within caste" or is it just Jatts who do this.

Does a Sikh of Tharkan/Ramgharia background consider themselves superior to some who is a chamar or Mazhabi background or is it just Jatts that does this?

Is this perceived superiority of Jatts happen to be due to the fact that Sikhs of Jatt background just happen to be numerous?

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Can you confirm if Sikhs of non Jatt background also marry "within caste" or is it just Jatts who do this.

Does a Sikh of Tharkan/Ramgharia background consider themselves superior to some who is a chamar or Mazhabi background or is it just Jatts that does this?

Is this perceived superiority of Jatts happen to be due to the fact that Sikhs of Jatt background just happen to be numerous?

WJKK WJKF

Obviously the other groups you mentioned do.....without going into the usual debate that's the usual caste based issue again. But when have you watched a film with a "Tharkaan sikh" (a contradiction in itself) being the pinnacle of what a sikh should be?

However no group claims sikhi to be their own more than the jatts. You only hear jatts claiming mahaan shaheed as jat and not Khalsa. Just look at the topic to do with the film "Ardas" a few weeks back...and watch the YouTube clip of ghughi and his views on Shaheed Baba Deep Singh as "Jatt" lol.

It's not the number of jatts what causes the superiority complex, it's what they think and say before and after accepting Amrit what is the problem. If one believes they are "better" than someone genetically and ethically just because of their ancestry, it's wrong right?

That's the problem. Alil like the Nazi Ideology of the supremacy of the Arian Race.

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Can you confirm if Sikhs of non Jatt background also marry "within caste" or is it just Jatts who do this.

Does a Sikh of Tharkan/Ramgharia background consider themselves superior to some who is a chamar or Mazhabi background or is it just Jatts that does this?

Is this perceived superiority of Jatts happen to be due to the fact that Sikhs of Jatt background just happen to be numerous?

Numerical preponderance is not the root cause here, it is more of a chain effect. When Jat-vaad is given more credence than a chain effect occurs where others also feel entitled to do the same.

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Numerical preponderance is not the root cause here, it is more of a chain effect. When Jat-vaad is given more credence than a chain effect occurs where others also feel entitled to do the same.

Is anything stopping others doing the same?

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Is anything stopping others doing the same?

WJKK WJKF

It's kinda sounds like your justifying it due to other groups now doing the same caste segregation. Again other groups segregate themselves onto castes however it is only the jatts what act as supremacists.

Why don't you just condemn the jatts and the others for doing any caste segration rather than in away say " they do it, so will we"?

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WJKK WJKF

It's kinda sounds like your justifying it due to other groups now doing the same caste segregation. Again other groups segregate themselves onto castes however it is only the jatts what act as supremacists.

Why don't you just condemn the jatts and the others for doing any caste segration rather than in away say " they do it, so will we"?

How are Jatts supremists? Can jatts be arrogant, of course but you conflated Jatts to be nazi's. Unless jatts have invaded countries and put people into concentration camps, that is not a valid comparison.

If Jatts dominate areas of Sikhi, it could be because Jatts comprise a very large proportion of Sikhs.

If Jatts overwhelmingly take up higher positions of Sikh institutions they perhaps took initiative and the risks for the panth in a higher proportion than Sikhs of other background.

Would one call that segregation?

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WJKK WJKF

Yea sounds about right....still today within sikhi the jat strives for some form of supremacy over other sikhs within sikhi continuously taking it back to their leanage. A jatt what took Amrit and became Khalsa will always be considered Khalsa, until they then marginlise themselves as a "jatt sikh" and marry within caste and continue to do so misunderstanding and misinterpretating the gurus sikhi for caste supremacy. Usually justifying it with ridiculous notions.

Can you please enlighten us and tell what caste were all our Guru's Maharaj? What caste women did they marry into?

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Ranjeet,

You've missed the point. Its not about invading countries. It's about defining a particular group as a "superior race" and somehow 'a cut above the rest'.

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Ranjeet,

You've missed the point. Its not about invading countries. It's about defining a particular group as a "superior race" and somehow 'a cut above the rest'.

No. Actually YOU are missing the point. Let's assume Jatts do consider themselves superior and you are right. How does that affect you? What actions have they taken in regards to feeling superior affected your well being?

Edited by Quantavius

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No. Actually YOU are missing the point. Let's consider Jatts do consider themselves superior. How does that affect you? What actions have they taken in regards to feeling superior affected your well being?

Quantavius, Jatt supremacism isn't some harmless quirk or bit of eccentricity, it directly affects many lives. It is no coincidence that so many of the anti-Sikh deras in the Punjab rely upon majhbi and low-caste former Sikhs to constitute the bulk of their following, or that Christian missionaries are specifically targeting these people. They have turned to these cults to find the acceptance which they are convinced that Sikhi denies them, because of the actions of bigoted Jatt supremacists - excluding them from Gurdwara committees, assaulting them when they agitate for their rights [this still happens from time to time in my nanke's pind Talhan), refusing to sell them land because of their caste. You appear totally disconnected from the reality of it. I don't know how often you visit Punjab, if at all, but the implications of casteism there are not the same as they are for Sikhs like you living in the West, in a society where these labels mean nothing at all.

Edited by Balkaar
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Quantavius, Jatt supremacism isn't some harmless quirk or bit of eccentricity, it directly affects many lives. It is no coincidence that so many of the anti-Sikh deras in the Punjab rely upon majhbi and low-caste former Sikhs to constitute the bulk of their following, or that Christian missionaries are specifically targeting these people. They have turned to these cults to find the acceptance which they are convinced that Sikhi denies them, because of the actions of bigoted Jatt supremacists - excluding them from Gurdwara committees, assaulting them when they agitate for their rights [this still happens from time to time in my nanke's pind Talhan), refusing to sell them land because of their caste. You appear totally disconnected from the reality of it. I don't know how often you visit Punjab, if at all, but the implications of casteism there are not the same as they are for Sikhs like you living in the West, in a society where these labels mean nothing at all. Your last name still counts for something in Punjab.

surely selling punjab's land to our bretheren is better than outsiders because the local economy gets a big boost .They get land and independance they are happy, Punjab is looked after it's own children rather than getting asset stripped by outsiders and anyrevenue from crops going outside punjab's economy too. Problem with Punjabis is their NOSE is too easily cut ...

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Ranjeet,

You've missed the point. Its not about invading countries. It's about defining a particular group as a "superior race" and somehow 'a cut above the rest'.

Jatts are no superior race nor are they cut above the rest.

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Quantavius, Jatt supremacism isn't some harmless quirk or bit of eccentricity, it directly affects many lives. It is no coincidence that so many of the anti-Sikh deras in the Punjab rely upon majhbi and low-caste former Sikhs to constitute the bulk of their following, or that Christian missionaries are specifically targeting these people. They have turned to these cults to find the acceptance which they are convinced that Sikhi denies them, because of the actions of bigoted Jatt supremacists - excluding them from Gurdwara committees, assaulting them when they agitate for their rights [this still happens from time to time in my nanke's pind Talhan), refusing to sell them land because of their caste. You appear totally disconnected from the reality of it. I don't know how often you visit Punjab, if at all, but the implications of casteism there are not the same as they are for Sikhs like you living in the West, in a society where these labels mean nothing at all.

And what is stopping you and your ilk from going to Punjab and creating your own version of 'perfect Sikhism' and keeping these Majhbi Sikhs within Sikhism fold? How hard is it for you people like you getting together in the UK, putting your money where your collective mouths are and buying over a couple of Gurdwaras in Punjab to cater to these Majhbi Sikhs?

Take Jagraj as an example. He is out there doing what he believes. No attack on anybody else. This is a guy I can really respect. I would not be the least surprised if he is a Jatt. LOL! Why don't you be a Jagraj for the Mazhbi Sikhs in Punjab? Create a movement of sorts. Go help your Mazhbi brothers and sisters instead of attacking Jatts in a forum. You my friend are part of the problem.Spare us your crocodile tears for Mazhbi Sikhs. You like every other hypocrite here never cared for them. They are simply there as footstool for you to attack Jatts. People who are imbued with positive energy go out and create something. Negative people on the other hand, whine, complain and attack others and simultaneously stroking their over inflated ego.

The disconnect here is between you and your hypocrisy.

Edited by Quantavius

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And what is stopping you and your ilk from going to Punjab and creating your own version of 'perfect Sikhism' and keeping these Majhbi Sikhs within Sikhism fold? How hard is it for you people like you getting together in the UK, putting your money where your collective mouths are and buying over a couple of Gurdwaras in Punjab to cater to these Majhbi Sikhs?

Take Jagraj as an example. He is out there doing what he believes. No attack on anybody else. This is a guy I can really respect. I would not be the least surprised if he is a Jatt. LOL! Why don't you be a Jagraj for the Mazhbi Sikhs in Punjab? Create a movement of sorts. Go help your Mazhbi brothers and sisters instead of attacking Jatts in a forum. You my friend are part of the problem.Spare us your crocodile tears for Mazhbi Sikhs. You like every other hypocrite here never cared for them. They are simply there as footstool for you to attack Jatts. People who are imbued with positive energy go out and create something. Negative people on the other hand, whine, complain and attack others and simultaneously stroking their over inflated ego.

The disconnect here is between you and your hypocrisy.

Quantavius, I wasn't aware you were the world's leading scholar on my habits. You're acting very familiar all of a sudden. Get a grip, you don't know any of us and you have no idea what we do with our time. Maybe we don't buy mazhbis Gurdwaras [LOL] or fly off to India to preach, but that's because most of us have families, duties and jobs to occupy ourselves with. Not all of us can be Jagraj Singhs, the wish to do something doesn't mean you are well suited to doing it, don't be so simple-minded. But when we have time, we help fellow Sikhs in whatever modest ways we can. Not that I should have to explain any of this to you LOL. Quit making wild presumptions about people you have never met and, if God is kind, never will.

I'm not attacking Jatts Quantavius, I'm criticising people who think they are better than everyone else because of some accident of birth. You don't seem to understand very much about the problems facing mazhbis. They aren't in need of money any more than the average Jatt is these days and they definitely don't need me to buy any Gurdwaras for them. They have both. And anyway, building them their own personal Gurdwaras where they can be cut off from everyone else is hardly going to make them feel less like social pariahs is it LOL? The problem they are facing is Jatt supremacist ideology which alienates them in Guru Ghars and pushes them into the arms of cults, and to address this problem we need to be targeting Jatts, not Mazbhis. Luckily, there are many parchaaraks who set out to do exactly this, and even we on this forum are contributing to that debate in a humble sort of way.

Edited by Balkaar

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surely selling punjab's land to our bretheren is better than outsiders because the local economy gets a big boost .They get land and independance they are happy, Punjab is looked after it's own children rather than getting asset stripped by outsiders and anyrevenue from crops going outside punjab's economy too. Problem with Punjabis is their NOSE is too easily cut ...

It would be better, but Punjabi culture doesn't exactly instil a mindfulness about the well-being of the economy and society. All people care about is making money for themselves, selling their land to the highest bidder so they can send their poor and unemployed kids to the West, where they can still be poor and unemployed but with more rain and KFC.

Edited by Balkaar
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Can you please enlighten us and tell what caste were all our Guru's Maharaj? What caste women did they marry into?

Guru tegh bahadur married a gujjar.

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The poster "Quantivus" has highlighted the problem with this very subject within his/her post based on their personal opinion.

It is not about building SEPARATE caste based gurdware or counting how many Sikh contributors to the faith were of jatt ancestry. That's the point right there. These individuals did it for sikhi and the panth which preaches no caste lol? They gave their lives for the tenets of Sikhi.

Until we see all our mahaan shaheed as contributors to sikhi and the panth without looking at caste, we can then move on.

It does not just affect sikh from mazhabi ancestry, it affects us all.

The usual arguments will come into debate like "who did the gurus marry" and "what caste were they". Fact of the matter and fact based on gurmat is caste has no place in sikhi. Either in marriage or either in contribution. Only when you condemn caste supremacy issues, can you really move forward as a guru ka sikh.

Guru Nanak Dev ji, denounced his caste by not accepting his janeu. He then in later life adopted farming. Surely this demonstrates that a job is a job. Over time anyone can become professional within their profession. However it sea that over time, we still have not adopted Guru Nanak Dev Jis sikhi and moved forward with him.

Edited by sikhiseeker
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Guru tegh bahadur married a gujjar.

So..? Both are Kshytria varna.

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<and the facepalm reverberated across the cosmos realigning orbits ...such was the disappointment of Dasmesh Pita ji>

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So..? Both are Kshytria varna.

Lool, yea nice try u freshy.

Guru tegh bahadur belonged to sodhi line of khatris, where as gujjars r not khatris u mug. They r 2 completely different tribes, bloodlines and even tribal occupations. Keep ur freshy/backward lies to yourself.

U r such an AVID advocate of tribal/caste apartheid, that ur willing to make up lies of how gujjars r now khatris, even tho nobody has ever heard/said that before, ever.

Every1 knows ur a hindu undercover, all ur posts glorify hindu caste system and their animal looking "gods".

Edited by StarStriker

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WJKK WJKF

The reasoning behind why our Gurusahib ji's married our dhan dhan mata ji's are above and beyond the caste issue. It's silly to bring this argument within the debate.

Dhan Dhan Shaheed Bhai Mani Singh Ji married Dhan Dhan Mata Seeto Bai, beloved daughter of Dhan Dhan Baba Lakhi Shah Vanjara.

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why do different castes think there from a diff race LOL i mean a jatt looks the exact same as any other punjabi so i don't understand why there so much tension based on a surname we all singhs

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