Nindak Missionary Dhunda At It Again

[InderjitS]

if you want to see the mind of a missionary in action watch the 6 part debate between Kulbir Singh and Inder Ghagga

note this is only part 1, the rest are available on the right hand side of the browser

and

[Akalifauj]

Like everyone else I don't know what his actual views (because we're denied the opportunity to hear it) but I would imagine he would agree with both you and me in the sense that Dasam Granth has some truly wonderfull features to it in terms of being a warrior...understanding weapons and the nature of weapons etc. I'm pretty sure however, that his only viewpoint is that it wasn't written by Sri Gobind Singh Ji. As a family unit, me, myself and wife read the scriptures daily to our kids and teach them of life from it. There are however, at least a few things from Dasam Granth that a parent could never repeat to his children and frankly would smack his or her children upside the head if they ever uttered such language and is indeed of a nature that cannot be repeated here on this forum where children visit and read. And I think (none of us know so we can only think and guess), perhaps, thats what this fella dhanda is trying to get at. Perhaps he is merely trying to say that it is impossible that Guru ji, who was most perfect, most moral, most upright, a master of poetry and verse, could have written something that, today, would get each and every one of us banned from this forum for being sexually vulgar if we ever repeated it or wrote it here. Isn't he entitled to ask that question and raise that point on an intellectual level ?

Tell me where this is from, Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji or Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji?

eyk ik®snµ srb dyvw dyv dyvw q Awqmw ]

eaek kirasana(n) sarab dhaevaa dhaev dhaevaa thaathamaa ||

The One Lord Krishna is the Divine Lord of all; He is the Divinity of the individual soul.

You complain about Dhunda not having the freedom to speak his mind. This is false because he has countless youtube videos where he speaks his mind and then retracts what he says because the crowd would reject his views. He also has been caught joining two separate tuks of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji on different angs in an question and answer session. Yet his supporters never spoke up against him. It took a Singh who accepts Gurbani of Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji to point out his mistake. So who respect Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji more?

Sri Charitorpakyan comes at the end of Sri Dasam Granth Sahib. When a child comes of age, he or she will be introduced to the teachings of Sri Charitorpakhyan. If you have a problem with Sri Charitorpakhyan, pull your child out of middle school because students are sexist and speaking about sex at a young age and even the schools teach about sex. I would rather have my Guru teach my children about the dangers of kaam than have some manmukh. The stories in Sri Charitorpakhyan are there to influence a person away from adultery, sex acts before marriage, falling for the opposite sex as the be all and end all, not devaluing the strength of women, not accepting every decision made at face value, the punishment for falling to kaam, how the world around you is going to behave around you because they fully indulge in maya, etc. Sant Maskeen Singh ji said, those who can't read Sri Charitorpakhyan without being ashamed are the problem and not Sri Charitorpakhyan. He used harsh words, but I will not because mod's will think I am using that tone. According to your post, I can understand you did not even grasp the ability of how Guru Sahib used Devi and devta names in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji or Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji. Here is a direct question to see how much hindophobhia you have. Was any of the Devi or Devta saved? If so, who and where did you get your information from? Very basic and simple question for those who contemplate over Gurbani. Let's see if you even attempt to answer this question.

We, who accept Sri Dasam Granth Sahib ji as Guru Sahib Bani, do not hide any shabads of Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji from the sangat because it will disapprove what I as a lowly insect is saying. Dhunda and co. are famously known for this act. When directly challenged they run off or show up 3 hours late to a discussion and have one of their supporters purposely cause a chaos to end the discussion. Honest men do not hide from discussion. If Dhunda was following the teachings of Sri Guru Nanak Dev ji, he would not be scared of open discussions.

[chatanga]

We all know what its supposed to signify Balkar....You haven't broken any new ground by stating the obvious.

Ask yourself why he needed to state it in the first place, if he is stating the obvious.

That sounds very much like the mahatama Gandhi excuse....i.e the way he used to sleep naked with his young neices because he believed it ws the best way to show how celibate he was. Sp seriously now, do you really believe that our most wonderous, majestic Guru Ji, who was the epitome of morality and a beautifull master of the written word and poetic verses would not be able to demonstrate in words the evils of lust without going into pornographic detail ?

There it is. It's pornography if it's intention is to arouse sexual feelings in someone. Sri CharitroPakhyan Granth is not intended to do that. People who can only see some words and not beyond, get stuck on these words? Why? Because they have the same vikaar in their mind to begin with. Only a person obsessed with pornogrphy would describe Sri CharitroPakhyan as such. Just like your mentor and inspiration Khushwant Singh did. he used the same words for this granth, and you could see where his mind was at from his own writings.

OUR Master of the beautiful written word and poetic verse has done just that. He has given us a Granth to make us think so deeply about our own behaviour and interaction with others but wrapped a layer of intrinsic covered intellect and wisdom under a cloak of base human desires to discern the wheat from the chaff.

I would talk about the dangers of sex and lust with my children by mentioning the words 'sex' and 'lust'. I would not need to first create a story about me placing my manhood inside some whores as a way of describing how lust can be bad.

Why would you be ashamed to use words from Guru Granth Sahib such as the ones i have listed above? Are you now feeling ashamed of Guru Granth Sahib and Guru Nanak Dev Ji's literary magic?

Don't be such a bandar Balkar. You know as well as I do that there are many Sikhs out there, like me, who have so much faith and respect for the moral integrity and literary prowess of our Guru that we know he could not and would not have written pornographic material. We know his masterfull experience of the written verse would ensure he could make a point about lust without the use of graphic detail. Men lacking in writing skills do that, That is not our Guru.

Come on West London Singh Sahib!

You dare to insult your Guru's intentions? It isn't the Guru who lacked in writing skills (in either Granth) but man's own lack of understanding. It again brings me back to the use of the words in Guru Granth Sahib. Couldn't Guru Nanak Sahib have found other words than breasts and nipples?

So, as you can imagine, for large chunks of the Sikh population, it is actually those that believe our Guru could have written such things who are seen as insulting Guru ji. Not the other way round. I cannot believe or understand how anyone could have such a low opinion of our Guru that they could even sully his good name and attribute such things to him.

Don't throw "large chunks of the Sikh population" in our face. You haven't taken any poll into this and neither have I.

People who I have personally interacted with, are aware of the use of words in Sri Dasme Patshah's Granth but totally unaware of the same words in Guru Granth Sahib. They could use the same argument you have used above. "How could Guru Nanak Dev Ji use such words?" couldn't they?

[chatanga]

Lol JagsawSingh, I have to hand it to you, you say it very bluntly and dont hold back I think your posts in this thread have been spot on. Now due to this post Waljinder sio will think we are both the same person lol.

He has only pointed out one thing very bluntly, and that is his inability to understand Guru Sahib's writings.

[Jonny101]

See originally the missionaries came out attacking only Charitropakhyan because its an easy target. But now they have not even spared Nitnemi Banis of Jaap Sahib, Chaupi Sahib and Svaiye. What is objectionable in these Banis? They are just pure Ustat of Vaheguru. These Banis are crucial because they are read out by the Panj Pyaras when preparing Amrit. If these Banis are discarded then there can be no Amrit and no Amrit means no Khalsa.

All Shakti we get is from Bani. It gives us strength to fight against our enemies.

[MOD]

JagsawSingh - you've been warned previously for your personal attacks and foul language. I've PMed an Admin to put you on quality control just so you can't freely post insults, foul language and insult bani of our Guru.

If it were up to me I'd just click 'spammer' on your profile and be done with your account. You're the very definition of a missionary who speaks loudly and has nothing relevant to add to the discussion. Your agenda on this site is clear.

[InderjitS]

One thing you will notice for sure is that Nindaks of Dasam Bani are usually the worldly educated type, but they lack spirituality at the right level. We are not even dung beetles compared to the Gursikhs who believed in Dasam Granth Sahib in its entirety. One thing these pare hoi mooraks (educated fools) cannot compete with is the avastha of previous Sants of Taksal at Mehta, Bhindri and Bhoparai, Bhai Randhir Singh, Sant Harnam Singh Rampur Khere Wale, Puratan Sampardas etc all who promoted Dasam Bani and did katha of it. By questioning the Bani we automatically question these Jewels of the Panth.

It is not entertainment of any sort and neither are the tales literal but a moral guide to teach, caution and protect us from base desires. Guru Sahib is above this base level of thinking and was not stuck in the material world like we are so the writings are difficult to comprehend, but we need to remember this is not limited to Dasam Bani. Chatanga has already pointed out some tuks in Guru Granth Sahib that anti DG brigade cannot explain, there are more that mention wiles of women in Bhai Gurdas Ji Vaars that these type will question and remove it they had their way!

When children are at the age to understand the moral message behind the tales and not in a one dimensional blinkered view, I see no reason why this Bani should be avoided.

Ultimately we can argue about yet another ridiculous controversy until we are blue in the face, it's unlikely to change the thinking of those who find the writings hard to swallow and will just cause another big rift in the Panth and one we can do without.

[Balkaar]

We all know what its supposed to signify Balkar....You haven't broken any new ground by stating the obvious.

Sp seriously now, do you really believe that our most wonderous, majestic Guru Ji, who was the epitome of morality and a beautifull master of the written word and poetic verses would not be able to demonstrate in words the evils of lust without going into pornographic detail ?

I state the obvious only because I'm skeptical whether you have actually read Dasam Bani. If you had then I don't see why you'd be insisting that it goes into 'pornographic detail', because Guru Sahib doesn't furnish us with very many details at all in these tales. Indeed he rarely goes further than saying that so and so 'made love'. I've yet to come across anything about the pleasure that ensues when someone's manhood slips into a v4gina, or anything else rendered with such obsessive specificity as you seem to believe. I wonder whether these pornographic details aren't simply some colorful imaginings based on rumors you've heard about Charitropakhyaan.

You know as well as I do that there are many Sikhs out there, like me, who have so much faith and respect for the moral integrity and literary prowess of our Guru that we know he could not and would not have written pornographic material. We know his masterfull experience of the written verse would ensure he could make a point about lust without the use of graphic detail. Men lacking in writing skills do that, That is not our Guru.

No, I don't know that. But I am more confident in my belief that many of these anti-Charitropakhyaan types oppose the Tenth King's Bani out of a selfish attempt to expiate themselves of the guilt and self-loathing they feel when their gandheh minds lead them to become aroused when reading Sri Charitropakhyaan, or when their active imaginations embellish it with raunchy details not otherwise specified. This is no poor reflection of the Bani itself, but only of their own corrupt thinking. Plenty of people are able to read this Bani like mature and dignified Gursikhs. The others have some growing up to do.

I would talk about the dangers of sex and lust with my children by mentioning the words 'sex' and 'lust'. I would not need to first create a story about me placing my manhood inside some whores as a way of describing how lust can be bad.

And when they ask what exactly this 'sex' is? You'll have to create a story about someone's manhood entering something, unless you want to leave them in the dark forever. There is no healthy way to avoid talking about this, a fact which was not lost on Guru Sahib.

[S1ngh]

Chatanga ji wrote in reply to Jagsaw singh

Come on West London Singh Sahib!

So he is West london singh who is a known slanderer of Dasam pita's bani in the past and was banned several times.'

He has no substance but harps on anti sikh rhetorics. HE SHOULD BE SHOWN THE DOOR WITHOUT warning.

To rebut a few of his assertions.He writes that this Granth promotes Hindu deities.

If there is any granth that condemns brahminism it is Dasam Granth sahib, Read below

ਜੌ ਕਹੌ ਰਾਮ ਅਜੋਨਿ ਅਜੈ ਅਤਿ ਕਾਹੇ ਕੌ ਕੌਸ਼ਲ ਕੁੱਖ ਜਯੋ ਜੂ ॥ ਕਾਲ ਹੂੰ ਕਾਲ ਕਹੈ ਜਿਹਿ ਕੌ ਕਿਹਿ ਕਾਰਣ ਕਾਲ ਤੇ ਦੀਨ ਭਯੋ ਜੂ ॥
जौ कहौ राम अजोनि अजै अति काहे कौ कौशल कु्ख जयो जू ॥ काल हूं काल कहै जिहि कौ किहि कारण काल ते दीन भयो जू ॥
If we consider Ram, the Lord as Unborn, then how did he take brith from the womb of Kaushalya ? He, who is said to be the KAL (destroyer) of KAL (death), then why did none become subjugated himself before KAL?

Sri Dasam Granth sahib

ਆਦਿ ਅਜੋਨਿ ਕਹਾਇ ਕਹੋ ਕਿਮ ਦੇਵਕਿ ਕੇ ਜਠਰੰਤਰ ਆਯੋ ॥ ਤਾਤ ਨ ਮਾਤ ਕਹੈ ਜਿਹ ਕੋ ਤਿਹ ਕਯੋਂ ਬਸੁਦੇਵਹਿ ਬਾਪੁ ਕਹਾਯੋ ॥੧੪॥
आदि अजोनि कहाइ कहो किम देवकि के जठरंतर आयो ॥ तात न मात कहै जिह को तिह कयों बसुदेवहि बापु कहायो ॥१४॥
He is said to be unborn and beginningless, then how did he come into the womb of Devaki ? He , who is considered without any father or mother, then why did he cause Vasudev to be called his father?14.

Sri Dasam Granth sahib

[MisterrSingh]

To be fair, there are some pretty harsh words used in SGGS Ji too (not in relation to women, but terms used to describe one who has stepped away from God). Off the top of my head, something like "kumjaat" is something most of us recite daily from certain banis.

The "Will somebody think of the children?" argument is weak. The Dasam Granth issue is an incredibly divisive subject, loaded with nuance and subtleties that fly over the pagri of most of our one-dimensional, literally-minded people.