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Gurudwara Protocol

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Fateh…

A few points on Gurudwara protocol:
Appreciate your thoughts/comments and constructive feedback on if I am right in the first place, and how some of these can be improved.

1. Basant: We have any traditional gurudwara in India, where a basant raag shabad is recited at the beginning of kirtan. However I notice that in the UK and USA the ragis don’t follow this. Even ragis who are from India (including Hazoori Ragis) tend to forget this when they are in the West.
Should a basant raag shabad not be recited in the west during the months of Jan – Mar.

2. Prashad: In many traditional gurudwaras when serving prashad, the bata is covered with a cotton white cloth to preserve cleanliness, barkat etc… However in the west this is somewhat forgotten where you notice the beard of the Prashad Service Sewadar is flowing into the Bata.
Again should this not be followed.

3. The ragis doing kirtan in 3’s generally tend to be a sole key ragi; where the ragi on the side most of the times hardly is a mere presence to fill the numbers.It is our highest purest form which you are reciting; should you not pay more attention and really learn how to do kirtan rather than just sitting pretending.

4. Mobile Phones: Most Ragis now use the mobile phone to read a shabad. Phone sits on the baja. The requirement for Harminder Sahib ragi used to be that he should know at least 400 shabads from heart.
If we are reciting Gurbani from reading from phone, vs from our mind, it clearly shows. Esp as there is a hukamnama from Akal Takhat prohibiting use of mobile phones. Yes this is clearly violated by the Ragis. How do we enforce this for the others.

Again the above are just observations which I think are taking us away from our basic protocol which is being breached.

I will highly appreciate your thoughts /comments on this with a view of
Am I correct in the above, if yes then how do we go on about improving this.

Fateh . . . .

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Fateh…

A few points on Gurudwara protocol:

Appreciate your thoughts/comments and constructive feedback on if I am right in the first place, and how some of these can be improved.

1. Basant: We have any traditional gurudwara in India, where a basant raag shabad is recited at the beginning of kirtan. However I notice that in the UK and USA the ragis don’t follow this. Even ragis who are from India (including Hazoori Ragis) tend to forget this when they are in the West.

Should a basant raag shabad not be recited in the west during the months of Jan – Mar.

2. Prashad: In many traditional gurudwaras when serving prashad, the bata is covered with a cotton white cloth to preserve cleanliness, barkat etc… However in the west this is somewhat forgotten where you notice the beard of the Prashad Service Sewadar is flowing into the Bata.

Again should this not be followed.

3. The ragis doing kirtan in 3’s generally tend to be a sole key ragi; where the ragi on the side most of the times hardly is a mere presence to fill the numbers.It is our highest purest form which you are reciting; should you not pay more attention and really learn how to do kirtan rather than just sitting pretending.

4. Mobile Phones: Most Ragis now use the mobile phone to read a shabad. Phone sits on the baja. The requirement for Harminder Sahib ragi used to be that he should know at least 400 shabads from heart.

If we are reciting Gurbani from reading from phone, vs from our mind, it clearly shows. Esp as there is a hukamnama from Akal Takhat prohibiting use of mobile phones. Yes this is clearly violated by the Ragis. How do we enforce this for the others.

Again the above are just observations which I think are taking us away from our basic protocol which is being breached.

I will highly appreciate your thoughts /comments on this with a view of

Am I correct in the above, if yes then how do we go on about improving this.

Fateh . . . .

I am but a sinner myself and cannot judge others, but on the points you have mentioned, I will just briefly give my opinions:

2. I agree with you, the bata should be covered with cotton cloth, and given satkaar.

3. I have not seen any ragi not singing. Although I agree, all ragis on stage should participate during the course of Kirtan,

4. I personally don't like this method, as the ragi may press the wrong button, or the phone battery may finish, or the phone could slip, are some reasons.

How to go about it is, to have a meeting with the Gurdwara committees and put your concerns and suggestions forward, and they can brief the sewadaars and ragis on Gurdwara satkaar and etiquette.

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Waheguru ji ka khalsa

Waheguru ji ki fateh

Improvement can be made by sponsoring hazoori Raagis from Sri Darbar Sahib, Amritsar.

But they are costly so Sangat needs to pay from pocket & not depend on committee.

Now whosoever does this Seva will be rewarded

Ang 266 Line 4 Raag Gauri Sukhmanee: Guru Arjan Dev

ਚਾਰਿ ਪਦਾਰਥ ਜੇ ਕੋ ਮਾਗੈ ॥

Chaar Padhaarathh Jae Ko Maagai ||

चारि पदारथ जे को मागै ॥

One who prays for the four cardinal blessings.

ਸਾਧ ਜਨਾ ਕੀ ਸੇਵਾ ਲਾਗੈ ॥

Saadhh Janaa Kee Saevaa Laagai ||

साध जना की सेवा लागै ॥

Should commit himself to the service of the Saints.

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3. The ragis doing kirtan in 3’s generally tend to be a sole key ragi; where the ragi on the side most of the times hardly is a mere presence to fill the numbers.It is our highest purest form which you are reciting; should you not pay more attention and really learn how to do kirtan rather than just sitting pretending.

Yeah, what's up with that? Whenever I look at the fellow on the left his lips are moving, but you can barely hear his voice. Do they sing softly intentionally so that the kirtan superstar in the middle shines through, or are their microphones deliberately turned off?

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Yeah, what's up with that? Whenever I look at the fellow on the left his lips are moving, but you can barely hear his voice. Do they sing softly intentionally so that the kirtan superstar in the middle shines through, or are their microphones deliberately turned off?

I always wonder about the 3rd ragi. Whats his purpose? You can barely hear him like someone hit the mute button on the remote and whats the point of having a 2nd vaja? It would make more sense if he was playing a different instrument, maybe a rabab or rilruba or even simple shainne, anything that would give him some purpose or justification for being there. Edited by Jonny101

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1. Not heard of this before, personally don't think it matters.

2. Seriously, beard touching Degh, plain wrong. I have personal views on Degh Maryada but they will be viewed as 'katar' so I wont be sharing.

3. Unheard of where Professional Kirtani 'Jathas' are concerned, where they struggle to make numbers, it's like an unwritten rule or call it tradition to have a 3rd person for show. It is odd they barely make a noise and when they do it's out of tune. Not only the ragis should sing but all of the Sangat as well. In India the majority of Sangat and men in particular do not sing at all and sit there looking at the camera like its the first time they've seen one.

4. Also heard this and agree should be memorised to prevent beadbi.

Edited by InderjitS

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Fateh....

Thanks

Mer Khalon.... Veer ji...it is not a matter of who is the more humble

It is more of a concern on what and how the protocol should be adhered to

These may be minor things but we should be keeping the utmost respect esp whilst being in gurudwara (and other places as well) and I noticed that these are not being followed.
Suggestions on how to get these improved will be highly appreicated. Talking to the Gurudwara committee doesnt go anywhere. They are present in the gurudwara most of the time and surely ignore this.

Fateh .. .

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Not just Basant, but even when the season changes a shabad in a time appropriate raag should be sung. At least do a shabad in raag at the beginning rather then forget completely about this great musical organization of shabads. At least start off with even any easy and simple taal/beat and shabad.

The Raag problem is just one problem the panth isn't really noticing right now

Edited by GurburAkal
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The main problem here is ignorance. The sangat trust the raagis and the Giani jis to know what they are doing and do it the right way.

I think the lowering of the standards of kirtan performance is because most Giani jis we have performing this seva have actually turned to kirtan as a way of getting out of India.

We personally knew a Giani ji who was actually a person who rows people across the river... kisti chalaun vala and he learned a few tunes on the vaja. As long as you can sing some gurbani on the vaja - outside country committees will be fooled as to you can perform kirtan. He had a forged giani certificate. The sakhis he told us - got mixed up in between and he had a business running on the side for him. In his free time he was selling stuff to people and even this stuff was sort of fake. Once someone bought a fixo from him and it was watery and useless.

He forged reciepts too. A lady gave him 50 shillings and he cleverly wrote her a receipt of 50 and on the carbon copy it said 5. The lady came to my dad who was sevadaar at that time. This was all insider information which we were able to get at because my dad had access to the paper copies of the Guradwara.

As long as this continues and we keep getting fooled, kirtan maryada cannot be adhered to. Another giani ji - this one was a genuine one came and he was all the time getting framed up by these others. No one has the time to follow up activities which go on in guradwaras.

Our committees are the ones who employ people from India and they can only respond to applications they receive. No one makes an active effort to go seek the actual real and well trained giani's who will perform kirtan in maryada and not look at it as a way of simply making money.

These gianis then move on from countries like Kenya to go on to canada and Uk.

If possible then we should have our own trained youth to perform kirtan in the Guradwaras. There is no place where at present (or maybe there is) where a reputable person from India can impart such precious knowledge to our own youngsters who can learn and perform kirtan and also educate the sangat on the correct way of performing kirtan.

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Fateh . . .

Very true... there is a lowering of standards in all aspects and we (including me) seem to be ignoring all of this.

In turn if we look at the rehat maryada it seems to be cut and getting shortened over the time. For example Take the Damdami taksal detailed rehat maryada it states every single detail on how the protocol should be adhered to. Similarly there should be one from Akal Takhat but the available one is a much shorter version just highlighting matters rather than discussing in detail.

My concerns were on how to improve this. The committee members seem to be turning a blind eye to all of this. I have gone and spoken to the stage secretary on various occasions on what my observations were, but the response is a recorded version of "kaka dont worry, mein dekh lenda"

There needs to be some education on this. How.... welcome your thoughts.

Fateh . . .

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WJKK WJKF

one thing that nags me is kids running around with nothing covering their heads. Since when were children exempt to the satkar of the Guru Granth Sahib Ji....I did raise this on here few years back but most sangat on here very quickly dismissed it as not a big issue, as their ownly kids lol?

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WJKK WJKF

one thing that nags me is kids running around with nothing covering their heads. Since when were children exempt to the satkar of the Guru Granth Sahib Ji....I did raise this on here few years back but most sangat on here very quickly dismissed it as not a big issue, as their ownly kids lol?

When we were kids, the babey had no qualms about disciplining or even slapping children who were misbehaving. Now its a free for all and many children are running around causing havoc. The parents are not setting a great example and can be found on phones during the Ardaas, Guru Sahib giving Hukam and even try and talk louder than the kirtanis!! The Satkar and fear is missing.

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When we were kids, the babey had no qualms about disciplining or even slapping children who were misbehaving. Now its a free for all and many children are running around causing havoc. The parents are not setting a great example and can be found on phones during the Ardaas, Guru Sahib giving Hukam and even try and talk louder than the kirtanis!! The Satkar and fear is missing.

WJKK WJKF

Most parents think it's fine because thei there and doing their bit....while their kids run round like lil sh*ts playing as if we were in a playground.

My parents would of gave me a swift punch in the rib if I did masti, we just knew not to mess in the darbar. We would go and play outside or sit in the langar hall.

When my kids were really small, like two years old, my wife and I would teach em not to make noise or mess about while kirtan, katha or hukamnama was being spoken. They learnt well and behave real good and enjoy going gurdwara. If my youngest is abit restless, my wife or I will just take her into the langar hall, let her settle and come back into the darbar.

I can understand some women may not have enough support when they have more than one child from their husbands as due to panjabi manly culture. This in no way singles out women point being. The men are to be blamed equally.

I don't understand why here in the uk the parents allow their kids to run riot. Thy have to behave in school and in school assembly, why not in the gurus darbar?

Edited by sikhiseeker
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When we were kids, the babey had no qualms about disciplining or even slapping children who were misbehaving. Now its a free for all and many children are running around causing havoc. The parents are not setting a great example and can be found on phones during the Ardaas, Guru Sahib giving Hukam and even try and talk louder than the kirtanis!! The Satkar and fear is missing.

True, Satkar and fear are missing nowadays. The children will do as their parents are doing. I don't know why people are on the phone during ardas and Hukam. I think it's because they don't know what to do themselves or have any idea of what's happening. I think an announcement should be made and education on the meanings of purpose of Ardas and Hukam. And also Gurdwara Satkar and etiquette. Leaflets should be handed out to Sangat as they enter or leave the Gurdwara, written in both Gurmukhi and English.

There should be classes for children about this issue too, and parents should be encouraged to practice at home.

WJKK WJKF

Most parents think it's fine because thei there and doing their bit....while their kids run round like lil sh*ts playing as if we were in a playground.

My parents would of gave me a swift punch in the rib if I did masti, we just knew not to mess in the darbar. We would go and play outside or sit in the langar hall.

When my kids were really small, like two years old, my wife and I would teach em not to make noise or mess about while kirtan, katha or hukamnama was being spoken. They learnt well and behave real good and enjoy going gurdwara. If my youngest is abit restless, my wife or I will just take her into the langar hall, let her settle and come back into the darbar.

I can understand some women may not have enough support when they have more than one child from their husbands as due to panjabi manly culture. This in no way singles out women point being. The men are to be blamed equally.

I don't understand why here in the uk the parents allow their kids to run riot. Thy have to behave in school and in school assembly, why not in the gurus darbar?

You are right about the kids being let loose in Darbar Sahib, but kids are more naughty nowadays and the methods of discipline are different, so that's the reason why parents give in to the children, as there is not enough discipline. Some are afraid to raise their voices or discipline with a strict tone.

The langar hall idea is good, as kids being kids get bored quick. The setting in the Gurdwara should also be like school.

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WJKK WJKF

Most parents think it's fine because thei there and doing their bit....while their kids run round like lil sh*ts playing as if we were in a playground.

My parents would of gave me a swift punch in the rib if I did masti, we just knew not to mess in the darbar. We would go and play outside or sit in the langar hall.

When my kids were really small, like two years old, my wife and I would teach em not to make noise or mess about while kirtan, katha or hukamnama was being spoken. They learnt well and behave real good and enjoy going gurdwara. If my youngest is abit restless, my wife or I will just take her into the langar hall, let her settle and come back into the darbar.

I can understand some women may not have enough support when they have more than one child from their husbands as due to panjabi manly culture. This in no way singles out women point being. The men are to be blamed equally.

I don't understand why here in the uk the parents allow their kids to run riot. Thy have to behave in school and in school assembly, why not in the gurus darbar?

same reasons why they themselves come dressed like they are going clubbing rather than to see the King of Kings

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True, Satkar and fear are missing nowadays. The children will do as their parents are doing. I don't know why people are on the phone during ardas and Hukam. I think it's because they don't know what to do themselves or have any idea of what's happening. I think an announcement should be made and education on the meanings of purpose of Ardas and Hukam. And also Gurdwara Satkar and etiquette. Leaflets should be handed out to Sangat as they enter or leave the Gurdwara, written in both Gurmukhi and English.

There should be classes for children about this issue too, and parents should be encouraged to practice at home.

You are right about the kids being let loose in Darbar Sahib, but kids are more naughty nowadays and the methods of discipline are different, so that's the reason why parents give in to the children, as there is not enough discipline. Some are afraid to raise their voices or discipline with a strict tone.

The langar hall idea is good, as kids being kids get bored quick. The setting in the Gurdwara should also be like school.

kids always have tested the boundaries from time immemorial , but the parents now have zero satkar for Guru ji themselves that why they just shrug and smile like idiots when you point out that their darlings are being noisy

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WJKK WJKF

one thing that nags me is kids running around with nothing covering their heads. Since when were children exempt to the satkar of the Guru Granth Sahib Ji....I did raise this on here few years back but most sangat on here very quickly dismissed it as not a big issue, as their ownly kids lol?

That also kinda bothers me as well, as it breaks my dhyan when I hear random screaming of children.. It is odd that parents in our dharma would allow their kids to do that (these days), while in other dharmas it almost never happens.

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same reasons why they themselves come dressed like they are going clubbing rather than to see the King of Kings

True, When I went to India, it's worse there. If women are attending a family Paat, they will wear the brightest colour suit, and I was pressured into wearing one too, but I told them straight, I don't think so and gave told them that's not what we go to the Gurdwara for. I think I offended a few people, but I don't care because I'm not going to dress up like I'm in a beauty contest. Obviously I wore a lighter colour and I don't know why some women like to dress up like clowns. I love the colours of God but some do go OTT, fluorescent. ? Edited by simran345

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Old but excellent post from another forum

Here are some basic rules that should be enforced in the Gurdwara Sahib. Please try to follow as many as you can, MOST of them are common sense. If you have any questions about anything, ASK SOMEONE. If you don’t know anyone to ask, ask the heads of your gurdwara. Feel free to add anything you think needs to be added, but please ensure that it is in line with Gurmat. Lastly, please forward this to anyone who goes to the gurdwara. You may also want to print it out and post it up at your gurdwara.
>>>>

Basics:

1. Cover your head
2. Wash hands (if your feet are dirty wash them too. Many gurdwaray have a separate place for washing feet. If not, wash them in the sink or with water on your hands.)
3. Take shoes and socks off


Other stuff:

**most of these are common sense if you pay attention to number 4.

4. Keep in mind that sitting in darbaar where Guru Granth Sahib Jee is is the same thing as sitting in darbaar where Guru Nanak Dev jee/any other guru sahib is.. this point cant be stressed enough...most people would be more careful as to how they behave in darbaar if it was any other guru than guru granth sahib jee. Have as much respect, humility etc. in Guru Granth Sahib Jee's darbaar as you would in Guru Gobind Singh Jee's darbaar.

5. If someone has their eyes closed DO NOT DISTURB THEM (unless absolutely necessary). They are most likely concentrating on whats going on.. not sleeping.

6. When matha tekking, do it as if guru nanak dev jee is there... because he is.

7. Dont wear inappropriate clothing (i.e. tight clothes, shirts with low necks, shirts that show half your stomach, bright flashy sparkly suits, multicoloured suits, extravagant suits...)

8. Cover your head PROPERLY at all times. "it slipped off my head" shouldnt be an excuse.

9. Don't talk while in the darbaar, even if you can't understand doesnt mean other people aren't paying attention. Your talking will disturb them. Try to listen to whats going on and you'll catch onto a few things. Even if you dont, ask your parents or just keep quiet and do simran.

10. If you see a friend sitting nearby or walking across, dont start frantically waving at him/her. If you must talk to him/her right then, go outside and do it.

11. NO TALKING whatsoever during ardaas/vaak.

12. When getting parshad, put your hands up high so that its easier for the sevadaar and make sure to use both hands.

13. When eating parshad, dont play around with it.. just accept it and eat it.

14. Do not DANCE, or even move your shoulders to the beat when kirtan is going on. Its not bhangra.

15. Dont pay attention to what other people are wearing.

16. LISTEN to what is going on.

17. keep mobiles, pagers etc off.. or if you must, keep it atleast on vibe so that it disturbs no one but you.

18. If your cell DOES ring, take it out immediately and turn it off. Don't leave it ringing in your pocket/purse thinking that no one else can hear it. DO NOT EVER talk on your phone in teh darbaar.

19. If you see someone else talking, kindly ask them to quiet down.

20. for ANY seva in the darbaar, your hands MUST be washed and you should have a hazooria (long piece of cloth around your neck)

21. For deg di seva, hands obviously must be thoroughly washed. When giving out deg, don't talk to people.. dont even sing "satnam vaheguru" (or whatever they're singing) with the rest of the sangat because its possible that some spit from your mouth could fall into the deg. the best thing to do would be to wrap your hazooria around your mouth.

22. In the langar hall, while doing seva, hands MUST once again be thoroughly washed. This is very important.

23. If you're serving langar, dont talk to people unnecessarily.

24. When your serving OR eating langar, your head must be covered.

25. Dont go boasting to people of how much seva you do (or how many times you go to the gurdwara), this just defeats the whole purpose.

26. The Gurdwara is not a social place. You dont go to meet up with people or to show off your new suit.

27. Don't push when you're in line to matha taak.

28. Do not bow down to anything other than Sri Guru Granth Sahib jee; this is considered an insult to Maharaj jee. Even if there is another pothi in the darbaar with other bani in it, the ultimate jyot of Guru Sahib is in SGGS.

29. Try to sit cross legged when in the gurdwara.

30. Don’t sit against the wall, please reserve this area for the elderly.

31. Don’t sit at the back, find a nice spot from where you can pay attention to what is going on.

32. Dont bring any food into the darbaar

33. Teach your kids the proper way to matha tek. Some kids throw money towards SGGSJ like they're doing Guru ji a favor and then don't even bow down.

34. NO GUM!!!!!!

35. Try to stay inside the gurudwara at most times. You disturb people when you go in and out ....or if you know you're going to leave in the middle of the services, sit near the exit.

36. Participate in the programme currently going on in Gurudwara sahib like if Kirtan is going on then sit and listen and try to understand the Kirtan. Many people start doing other Paath (sukhmani sahib or others) in the Gurudwara Hall when Kirtan or katha (lectures on gurmat) are going on. A student (Sikh) should listen to what is going on (katha/ kirtan) in classroom (gurudwara) at that particular period of time. If any body really needs to do other paath then they should go to a separate room instead of doing it in the main hall.

37. The Gurdwara is not a playground, if you wanna play, play outside, not in the guru darbar or guru ka langar.

38. No portable game consoles or mobile phones with games. I have seen teenagers playing these during a diwan (session in the gurdwara).

39. No T-shirts or clothes with offensive writing like FCUK tops or beer ads or anything anti-Gurmat.

40. When coming to the Gurdwara, try to spend more time in the darbar rather then spending more time outside talking. Some people might spend 15mins in the darbar and then 2-3 hours talking outside like they are going to sort out important Panthic issues or bhaji/bhenji clubs, we know how these can end up!!. As mentioned before, the gurdwara is not a social meeting place.

41. Teach younger kids to sit inside the darbar... they're never going to learn anything if they play outside during kirtan!!

42. Try to stay in the darbar for as long as the program is going on. Stay to listen to the hukamnama, even if you don’t understand. If Guru Gobind Singh jee was giving an order to his Sikhs, you would most likely want to stay and hear what he has to say. Same thing at the gurdwara.

Vaheguroo jee ka Khalsa Vaheguroo jee kee Fateh!!!

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The main problem here is ignorance. The sangat trust the raagis and the Giani jis to know what they are doing and do it the right way.

I think the lowering of the standards of kirtan performance is because most Giani jis we have performing this seva have actually turned to kirtan as a way of getting out of India.

We personally knew a Giani ji who was actually a person who rows people across the river... kisti chalaun vala and he learned a few tunes on the vaja. As long as you can sing some gurbani on the vaja - outside country committees will be fooled as to you can perform kirtan. He had a forged giani certificate. The sakhis he told us - got mixed up in between and he had a business running on the side for him. In his free time he was selling stuff to people and even this stuff was sort of fake. Once someone bought a fixo from him and it was watery and useless.

He forged reciepts too. A lady gave him 50 shillings and he cleverly wrote her a receipt of 50 and on the carbon copy it said 5. The lady came to my dad who was sevadaar at that time. This was all insider information which we were able to get at because my dad had access to the paper copies of the Guradwara.

As long as this continues and we keep getting fooled, kirtan maryada cannot be adhered to. Another giani ji - this one was a genuine one came and he was all the time getting framed up by these others. No one has the time to follow up activities which go on in guradwaras.

Our committees are the ones who employ people from India and they can only respond to applications they receive. No one makes an active effort to go seek the actual real and well trained giani's who will perform kirtan in maryada and not look at it as a way of simply making money.

These gianis then move on from countries like Kenya to go on to canada and Uk.

If possible then we should have our own trained youth to perform kirtan in the Guradwaras. There is no place where at present (or maybe there is) where a reputable person from India can impart such precious knowledge to our own youngsters who can learn and perform kirtan and also educate the sangat on the correct way of performing kirtan.

I agree we should have numerous vidhalayas for raag kirtan and gurbani santhiya, calligraphy, sikh itihass, parchaar; each Sikh should be able to be kirtaniya,granthi, scribe if and when needed. I mean sikhs have been set up in Uk , USA and Canada over one hundred years now; it is more than time . I think that is where daswand should go to , and we should have a rota of guest lecturers from the taksals and other sangeet schools so what we lack can be fufilled and we can ensure parchaar is multifaceted, high quality and multilingual , customised to conditions on the ground (grooming issues, interfaith issues, Caste removal). Since SGPC is now antisikh in nature I can see no one objecting except those who are bought by antisikh elements in India

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The main problem here is ignorance. The sangat trust the raagis and the Giani jis to know what they are doing and do it the right way.

I think the lowering of the standards of kirtan performance is because most Giani jis we have performing this seva have actually turned to kirtan as a way of getting out of India.

We personally knew a Giani ji who was actually a person who rows people across the river... kisti chalaun vala and he learned a few tunes on the vaja. As long as you can sing some gurbani on the vaja - outside country committees will be fooled as to you can perform kirtan. He had a forged giani certificate. The sakhis he told us - got mixed up in between and he had a business running on the side for him. In his free time he was selling stuff to people and even this stuff was sort of fake. Once someone bought a fixo from him and it was watery and useless.

He forged reciepts too. A lady gave him 50 shillings and he cleverly wrote her a receipt of 50 and on the carbon copy it said 5. The lady came to my dad who was sevadaar at that time. This was all insider information which we were able to get at because my dad had access to the paper copies of the Guradwara.

As long as this continues and we keep getting fooled, kirtan maryada cannot be adhered to. Another giani ji - this one was a genuine one came and he was all the time getting framed up by these others. No one has the time to follow up activities which go on in guradwaras.

Our committees are the ones who employ people from India and they can only respond to applications they receive. No one makes an active effort to go seek the actual real and well trained giani's who will perform kirtan in maryada and not look at it as a way of simply making money.

These gianis then move on from countries like Kenya to go on to canada and Uk.

If possible then we should have our own trained youth to perform kirtan in the Guradwaras. There is no place where at present (or maybe there is) where a reputable person from India can impart such precious knowledge to our own youngsters who can learn and perform kirtan and also educate the sangat on the correct way of performing kirtan.

I agree we should have numerous vidhalayas for raag kirtan and gurbani santhiya, calligraphy, sikh itihass, parchaar; each Sikh should be able to be kirtaniya,granthi, scribe if and when needed. I mean sikhs have been set up in Uk , USA and Canada over one hundred years now; it is more than time . I think that is where daswand should go to , and we should have a rota of guest lecturers from the taksals and other sangeet schools so what we lack can be fufilled and we can ensure parchaar is multifaceted, high quality and multilingual , customised to conditions on the ground (grooming issues, interfaith issues, Caste removal). Since SGPC is now antisikh in nature I can see no one objecting except those who are bought by antisikh elements in India

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Be nice to get the gossiping women out of the kitchens and langar hall into the Darbar Sahib!

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Be nice to get men into the kitchen in the first place

The only positions in the committee offered to the women are "kitchen di seva", with the exception of Sri Guru Singh Sabha Hounslow, where females have actually had leadership roles (stage secretary).

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True, When I went to India, it's worse there. If women are attending a family Paat, they will wear the brightest colour suit, and I was pressured into wearing one too, but I told them straight, I don't think so and gave told them that's not what we go to the Gurdwara for. I think I offended a few people, but I don't care because I'm not going to dress up like I'm in a beauty contest. Obviously I wore a lighter colour and I don't know why some women like to dress up like clowns. I love the colours of God but some do go OTT, fluorescent.

The worst one was during the day I went to do matha tek and listen to sukhmani sahib at Karamsar Gurdwara . One lady comes in with two guys , the guys had full body clothing, ts and jeans however she was in a low cut vest top with white linen capri shorts on , when she did matha tek you could see everything through the cloth of her trousers ...or should I say lack of coverage of her underwear . The bibian who were of the older generation took one look and and told her to her face that one does not come before your father naked so why come before Guru ji this way ? The old guys were so flustered they could only look on the ground they were ashamed for her , but she was zero bothered. And that is the thing such people would dress demurely if it was an invitation to a Queen's tea party at Buckingham but because they do not recognise Guru Granth Sahib as the living Guru they pull this disrespectful attitude out.

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Be nice to get men into the kitchen in the first place

The only positions in the committee offered to the women are "kitchen di seva", with the exception of Sri Guru Singh Sabha Hounslow, where females have actually had leadership roles (stage secretary).

I reckon they should put the men in charge of langar and the women in charge of day to day running of the Gurdwara I reckon the women would actually be more open to new initiatives to teach sikhi and not see it as a personal affront like the guys and The langar would become simpler and run without so much chitchat

Edited by jkvlondon
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