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Harsharan paji, one thing I don't understand is I know those spirits, deities, should not do anything that is not the hukam of God, but then there are people that go to those people(babas) that worship them and get bad experiences from them. So is that the play of the person (baba) or of the deities, spirits etc? Where is the line drawn? Also can a person (baba), as they are called, misuse the deities powers? And what happens if they do?

Agree with your comment of not being easy to have faith and love for Waheguru without their hukam, one may try very hard, but it will only happen with Gods grace.

Sister,

let us not mix the terms deities and spirits.

Spirits can be good or bad, but the deities or devtas are virtuous. They are to do good or help to the good and punish the bad. They by themselves have higher powers watching over them, they can not do anything just like that, otherwise they will have to pay for their avarice, greed or kaam...

As we are nor perfect and as general rule, I would say to stay in the safe side, we must base our lives according to Gurmat, that by itself will be a Laksman rekha. which will protect us from maya, kaal, and all the possible evil.

Sat Sree Akal.

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Dear Preeet Jee,

I am sorry to disagree with your saying, that the line written by me above you find it flawing ....

Our brothers Kira Jee and Sikhni777 have provided quite a few quotations and Shabads from the Bani, where the true rank of these main gods like Brahma, Vishnu or Shiva is clearly stated.

I hate to discuss these issues, because it may seem to some, there is some type of ninda or disrespect to these gods ....

But it is also a fact that I have to be true to myself .

And one thing I will surely say, a lot of brahmanvadee is influencing us, thus we are going off track in Sikhee.

Thus we are mistaking simple traffic police officers as the Royal King ...which is not correct at all.

Jap Ji Sahib, clearly makes significant differences between these 3 main deities, and the only eternal Truth, One Supreme Wahiguru Akal PuruKh = IkOankar.

The following line gives us a small hint of the Infinite Wahiguru

ਆਦਿ ਅਨੀਲੁ ਅਨਾਦਿ ਅਨਾਹਤਿ ਜੁਗੁ ਜੁਗੁ ਏਕੋ ਵੇਸੁ

Aadh Aneel Anaadh Anaahath Jug Jug Eaeko Vaes

आदि अनीलु अनादि अनाहति जुगु जुगु एको वेसु

The Primal One, the Pure Light, without beginning, without end. Throughout all the ages, He is One and the Same

While referring to the 3 deities, it says:

ਏਕਾ ਮਾਈ ਜੁਗਤਿ ਵਿਆਈ ਤਿਨਿ ਚੇਲੇ ਪਰਵਾਣੁ

Eaekaa Maaee Jugath Viaaee Thin Chaelae Paravaan

एका माई जुगति विआई तिनि चेले परवाणु

The One Divine Mother conceived and gave birth to the three deities.

*In the above line, the divine mother is referred to Maya. If one wants to know about the beginning of the creation and Wahiguru/ Satnam, I would suggest to read the fantastic book of Bhagat Kabeer Sahib, titled Anurag Sagar, which can be found online from several authors, it is just to get an idea about Satnam, Naam, Shabad, gods, maya, kaal, mind , etc .

Then in the following line, their role in the mayavee creation is cleary described

ਇਕੁ ਸੰਸਾਰੀ ਇਕੁ ਭੰਡਾਰੀ ਇਕੁ ਲਾਏ ਦੀਬਾਣੁ

Eik Sansaaree Eik Bhanddaaree Eik Laaeae Dheebaan

इकु संसारी इकु भंडारी इकु लाए दीबाणु

One, the Creator of the World; One, the Sustainer; and One, the Destroyer.

Then in the following line, Guru Jee tells us, that even after giving to each of them their particular duties to perform, they have no free will by themselves, but all of them three act under His Hukum.

ਜਿਵ ਤਿਸੁ ਭਾਵੈ ਤਿਵੈ ਚਲਾਵੈ ਜਿਵ ਹੋਵੈ ਫੁਰਮਾਣੁ

Jiv This Bhaavai Thivai Chalaavai Jiv Hovai Furamaan

जिव तिसु भावै तिवै चलावै जिव होवै फुरमाणु

He makes things happen according to the Pleasure of His Will. Such is His Celestial Order

And still in the following line, Guru Jee clearly says, that even while having such high duties assigned by Him, the wonderful thing is, they know nothing about Him.

ਓਹੁ ਵੇਖੈ ਓਨਾ ਨਦਰਿ ਨ ਆਵੈ ਬਹੁਤਾ ਏਹੁ ਵਿਡਾਣੁ

Ouhu Vaekhai Ounaa Nadhar N Aavai Bahuthaa Eaehu Viddaan

ओहु वेखै ओना नदरि न आवै बहुता एहु विडाणु

He watches over all, but none see Him. How wonderful this is!.

* This is because, their abodes are very much within the limits of maya, only Wahiguru is beyond the region of Brahm, that is why He is called also Parbrham Parmeshwar

So dear all, nobody is denying their existence, but the fact is they all are just administrating the mayavee creation under His Hukum, they are in no way any substitute for Wahiguru.

Swarg, Baikunth, Shivpuri, is all within maya.

It would not be appropiate to say, that if I want to go to America from India, and I buy a ticket (offer devotion) which due to its cost(simran of words like Ram, Raheem, Krishna, Shiva and so on) can only take me to Afghanistan, or even then that just by buying that ticket and boarding the plane, I will reach America.

No. That will never be possible

The cost of the ticket going to America, is Naam or Shabad(Simran of the Gurmanter Wahiguru).

The Bani says: Nanak Naam Jahaz hae, jin chareeya seh utareeya paar.

Gurmat is much much higher, rather I would say the highest or the only path to the eternal Truth, Wahiguru.

In Gurmat, we may do Simran of Wahiguru, just as other dharmas do of their deities, but the difference between Gurmat and other other dharmas, including brahmanvadee lies in that, their simran takes them at most to the heights of Swarg or Baikunth for example, while with the gurmanter we reach the Shabad Guru within, with whose guidance and wisdom, we then cross the region of maya or Braham, thus reach Parbraham, and then direct to Sach Khand, at the Lotus Feet of Wahiguru Akal Purukh.

Such is mahanta of Sikhee or Gurmat.

With the simran of lesser deities or trinity gods, we at most reach their abode, but never become one with them, because they are not the ultimate Reality.

While with the Gurmanter, we reach Sach Khand and merge in Him, and become Him.

That is why the bani says: Jevad aap, tevad Teree Daat. To those who meditate on Him, He gives Himself to them, nothing less, such a bountiful giver is Wahiguru.

I am sorry, if I have hurt anyone, but at least for me, none is comparable to our beloved Wahiguru Akal Purukh.

He alone, He is.

Sat Sree Akal.

Harsharan000 ji thank you for replying! While I do agree with that, what were your thoughts on that story of Ajamal in our religion? I think he existed before Sikhi, and before Sikhi the name of Narayan was the name of Sri Vishnu which is the same name as God. So, if they share the same names, I was trying to say that if a Vaishnav worships Sri Vishnu, or any other God with the name of God, the bhakti of naam simran all leads to Paramatman Sri Vaheguru, just as Ajamal named his child Narayan because Sadhus told him to since the Sadhus knew that even repeating Narayan once is recorded as a punya. Devotees of Sri Vishnu are highly blessed beings as well and God loves people who worship Sri Vishnu.

ਬੈਸਨੋਸੋਜਿਸੁਊਪਰਿਸੁਪ੍ਰਸੰਨ ॥
बैसनोसोजिसुऊपरिसुप्रसंन ॥
Baisno so jis ūpar suparsan.
The true Vaishnaav, the devotee of Vishnu, is the one with whom God is thoroughly pleased.
ਬਿਸਨਕੀਮਾਇਆਤੇਹੋਇਭਿੰਨ ॥
बिसनकीमाइआतेहोइभिंन ॥
Bisan kī mā▫i▫ā ṯe ho▫e bẖinn.
He dwells apart from Maya.
ਕਰਮਕਰਤਹੋਵੈਨਿਹਕਰਮ ॥
करमकरतहोवैनिहकरम ॥
Karam karaṯ hovai nihkaram.
Performing good deeds, he does not seek rewards.
ਤਿਸੁਬੈਸਨੋਕਾਨਿਰਮਲਧਰਮ ॥
तिसुबैसनोकानिरमलधरम ॥
Ŧis baisno kā nirmal ḏẖaram.
Spotlessly pure is the religion of such a Vaishnaav;
ਕਾਹੂਫਲਕੀਇਛਾਨਹੀਬਾਛੈ ॥
काहूफलकीइछानहीबाछै ॥
Kāhū fal kī icẖẖā nahī bācẖẖai.
he has no desire for the fruits of his labors.
ਕੇਵਲਭਗਤਿਕੀਰਤਨਸੰਗਿਰਾਚੈ ॥
केवलभगतिकीरतनसंगिराचै ॥
Keval bẖagaṯ kīrṯan sang rācẖai.
He is absorbed in devotional worship and the singing of Kirtan, the songs of the Lord's Glory.
ਮਨਤਨਅੰਤਰਿਸਿਮਰਨਗੋਪਾਲ ॥
मनतनअंतरिसिमरनगोपाल ॥
Man ṯan anṯar simran gopāl.
Within his mind and body, he meditates in remembrance on the Lord of the Universe.
ਸਭਊਪਰਿਹੋਵਤਕਿਰਪਾਲ ॥
सभऊपरिहोवतकिरपाल ॥
Sabẖ ūpar hovaṯ kirpāl.
He is kind to all creatures.
ਆਪਿਦ੍ਰਿੜੈਅਵਰਹਨਾਮੁਜਪਾਵੈ ॥
आपिद्रिड़ैअवरहनामुजपावै ॥
Āp ḏariṛai avrah nām japāvai.
He holds fast to the Naam, and inspires others to chant it.
ਨਾਨਕਓਹੁਬੈਸਨੋਪਰਮਗਤਿਪਾਵੈ ॥੨॥
नानकओहुबैसनोपरमगतिपावै ॥२॥
Nānak oh baisno param gaṯ pāvai. ||2||
O Nanak, such a Vaishnaav obtains the supreme status. ||2||

What we seem to forget is that there is no way to worship something that isn't God, because there is only God. Nothing else exists besides God. Whatever you see is an expansion of Paramatman. Remember Sri Anand Sahib..

ਏਹੁਵਿਸੁਸੰਸਾਰੁਤੁਮਦੇਖਦੇਏਹੁਹਰਿਕਾਰੂਪੁਹੈਹਰਿਰੂਪੁਨਦਰੀਆਇਆ ॥
एहुविसुसंसारुतुमदेखदेएहुहरिकारूपुहैहरिरूपुनदरीआइआ ॥
Ėhu vis sansār ṯum ḏekẖ▫ḏe ehu har kā rūp hai har rūp naḏrī ā▫i▫ā.
This whole world which you see is the image of the Lord; only the image of the Lord is seen.
ਗੁਰਪਰਸਾਦੀਬੁਝਿਆਜਾਵੇਖਾਹਰਿਇਕੁਹੈਹਰਿਬਿਨੁਅਵਰੁਨਕੋਈ ॥
गुरपरसादीबुझिआजावेखाहरिइकुहैहरिबिनुअवरुनकोई ॥
Gur parsādī bujẖi▫ā jā vekẖā har ik hai har bin avar na ko▫ī.
By Guru's Grace, I understand, and I see only the One Lord; there is no one except the Lord.
ਕਹੈਨਾਨਕੁਏਹਿਨੇਤ੍ਰਅੰਧਸੇਸਤਿਗੁਰਿਮਿਲਿਐਦਿਬਦ੍ਰਿਸਟਿਹੋਈ ॥੩੬॥
कहैनानकुएहिनेत्रअंधसेसतिगुरिमिलिऐदिबद्रिसटिहोई ॥३६॥
Kahai Nānak ehi neṯar anḏẖ se saṯgur mili▫ai ḏib ḏarisat ho▫ī. ||36||
Says Nanak, these eyes were blind; but meeting the True Guru, they became all-seeing. ||36||
We believe in non-duality, and I think you have said it yourself (or maybe I am mistaken), something along the lines as the Trimurti do not have free will right..? That is because of non-duality meaning there is only God, all is an roop of Sri Vaheguru.

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Sister,

let us not mix the terms deities and spirits.

Spirits can be good or bad, but the deities or devtas are virtuous. They are to do good or help to the good and punish the bad. They by themselves have higher powers watching over them, they can not do anything just like that, otherwise they will have to pay for their avarice, greed or kaam...

As we are nor perfect and as general rule, I would say to stay in the safe side, we must base our lives according to Gurmat, that by itself will be a Laksman rekha. which will protect us from maya, kaal, and all the possible evil.

I'm sorry Harsharan paji I should have wrote spirits only, as I know people that have been to some and had bad experiences, such as things got worse in their lives, and still some go, so I'm a bit confused as to how they fall into place in Gods creation. As there is normally a person worshipping to them and claiming to have certain powers. Is this true and is it right to do that? I do not know much about spirits, thus asking ji. Some Sikhs go to these places and get drawn in by it, so the bit I don't understand is are the people (babas) they see doing things in hukam or not? And if somebody stops participating in that side, then what is the best way to come back into Sikhi?

Sat Sree Akal.

Sorryji my way of asking is confusing. Edited by simran345

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Harsharan paji,

1)one thing I don't understand is I know those spirits, should not do anything that is not the hukam of God, but then there are people that go to those people(babas) that worship them and get bad experiences from them.

2)So is that the play of the person (baba) or of the, spirits etc?

3)Where is the line drawn?

4)Also can a person (baba), as they are called, misuse the deities powers?

5)And what happens if they do?

6)And if somebody stops participating in that side, then what is the best way to come back into Sikhi?

Sister Simran345,

I will try the best as possible to answer your questions. I am no authority, but just my own thoughts based on my beliefs on Gurbani.

1) Spirits by themselves hardly do anything, unless they are very disturbed. It is more the impressions we have due to the film industry.

Hukum tells us to do good, Hukum never says to do bad or misbehave, but we still do what we want, though having to pay for it, so these babas can also not act accordingly as per laws of Nature, or we can say act within the limits of morality.

But frankly speaking, these spirits move mostly on the astral subtle sub planes.

They are just like us humans, with the very mind, and all the vikaars, only that they have no physical body. Their body is ethereal, or astral. All are gathered somewhere there in that plane, waiting to incarnate in a joonee to settle their karmas, mostly to get their trishnas satisfied, or if their karmas are extremely good, that soul goes to Swarg or Baikunth, or some heavenly paradise, and when those fruits are over, they fall down into the gross creation in any joonee with the remanant karmas, and not necessarily in the human form .....

2) Call it a play if you want, but ultimately they are creating more karmas and adding to their already heavy load of them.

3) The line can only be drawn, by not going to those places and by Naam Bhakti, otherwise we humans are very weak.

4) Of course they can, in that lies the free will given to us, to choose what we want to do.

5) If we do good, we shall get good in return. if we do bad, we invite pain and misery for us. And this law is universal, be it whosoever, human, animal, angel, devi, devta or gods, any forms of lives at any levels of consciousness.

6) The best way, is to abandon it as soon as possible, and then repent in not doing any foolishnes again and hold on to Gurbani firmly. And holding on to Gurbani, is nothing else, but to do His Simran "aath paher" or "saas saas simroh Gobind".

This is the only medicine to be taken, then all pain and misery shall flee away, and at the same time fill us, with His Power, Himself, what else do we want sister then, or what is left to be done?

We should Love Him with all our heart, and loving Him or doing His devotion, means to have Him present in our chits, with His Naam Simran alone.

Sat Sree Akal.

Edited by harsharan000

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The reason the names of god are added to these Devi/Devta is because their own ego made them take them. Brahma calling himself all knowing, Vishnu calling himself blotless etc etc

This video explains why calling these gods and goddesses these names isn't the same as worshiping god.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rh2KzeJJZ0

If you want to start twisting the Sakhi of Ajameel and use it to justify it following these imperfect beings then let's now use Bhagat Dhanna's story to worship stones too, It's a constant lack of insight into the meaning of these stories that people seem to forget.

You may as well start praying to a chair or something as God is indiscriminately present in all. There isn't more god in one place or another. The people people who's seva is worthwhile is that of Akaal Purkh and his saints. Calling anything other than god and giving them characteristics is the most foolhardy thing someone can do. Why call Shiva the destroyer when he can be destroyed? Why call Vishnu the Preserver when the Lord God is the one doing that? Why refer to Brahma as all knowing when the only being who is all knowing is Waheguru.

These are names the gods starts referring to themselves as, or people did. Like it or not you're worshiping the gods not Akaal Purkh. The same way bowing to a stone is idol worship and nothing else.

People should just read the Sri Dasam Granth Ji and see the actual nature of these gods and goddess. Rather than trying to twist and warp Sikh philosophy just read passages from that. Akaal Purkh made it abundantly clear (yes I said Akaal Purkh as there is a section where the words of the divine lord is actually eulogized) what these gods and goddesses are doing and why worshiping them is completely wrong.

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We all know Bhagat Kabir Jee was a great soul, a lover of God, we have gone through His Bani in the SGGS.

Today I was just surfing on the net, and I found this following poem of Kabeer Jee, which is very interesting, very inspirational, and which goes much with the topic of this very thread, thus I would like to share here it with the sangat.

Here it goes:

Bhaai, koi satguru sant kahaawe, nainan alakh lakhaawe.

Dolat Dige, na bolat bisare, jab updesh driDhawe.

Pran pujya, kiriya te nyara, sahaj samaadhi sikhaawe.

Dwaar na rundhe, pawan na roke, nahi anahad arujhaawe.

Yah man jaay jaha lag, jabahi, parmaatam darasaawe.

Karam kare, nihkaram rahe jo, aisi jugut lakhaawe.

Satt vilaas, traas nahi man me, bhog me jog jagaawe.

Dharati tyaagi, akasahu tyaage, adhar madaiyaa chhawe.

Sunn sikhar ke saar sila par, aasan achal jamaawe.

Bhitar raha so baahar dekhe, dooja drishTi na aawe.

Kahat Kabir basa hai hansaa, aavagaman miTaawe.

Kabir says - O brother, rare is the Saint Satguru who shows me unknowable.

He has given me such a firm knowledge that no one can shake it. It can’t be forgotten, neither can it be shaken off, such strong knowledge he has given to me.

He had shown me something dearer than my own life, beyond any actions, he has taught me to do effortless meditation. Now I don’t stop my sense organs, I don’t control my breaths, neither I get entangled in anahad sound(the sounds in meditation or yoga which make possible our reach up to Trikuti).

Now wherever and whenever the mind goes, it sees the supreme only. He has taught me such a method that even while I perform the action, I am beyond the actions.

Now I abide in Truth, having no pain in the mind. Now even in pleasures of this world I am in constant union with my beloved. I have abandoned the earth and the sky both and have made my hut in between.

On the rock of the great void, I sit and do the effortless meditation.

Now what is within is also without, what is inside is also outside, now there is no other at all.

Kabir says – the pure soul has taken such a place that the cycle of birth and death has come to an end.

If we read and understand this poem carefully, we can see that just as in Gurmat, He clearly only lays stress and utmost importance to the devotion of Naam Simran above any other practices, which are totally futile, in our goal of acheiving Him.

In the end He also says, that doing this type of devotion, one cuts off the chains forever from the mayavee creation and reach the region of Absolute Truth, Sach Khand.

Sat Sree Akal.

Edited by harsharan000
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Thanku ji twada, meri mat thori a, very grateful that you take out precious time to educate ji.

Pen jee Simran345,

how can you be so hard with me, in your ending line with the words "to educate ji" ?

I believe you did not meant it that way, but that is how people get wrong impressions, and the problems start .... specially with some narrow minded ones.

First of all, I am no one to educate anybody at all. It all dependes on our recptivity as persons, as human beings...

Then, rather I would be grateful, if I am taken as a friend, as a brother of the sangat here ....

We are His children, there is nothing great in giving a helping hand where needed, and be thankful to all to have a opportunity to sing and listen His apaar mahima.

We are all sikhs, learners..... He alone is the Gurmukh, is the Sadhu, Bhagat Jan or Guru Sahiban.

Sat Sree Akal.

Edited by harsharan000
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Simran as means of devotion:

Many of us, think, that devotion to the Lord consists of several outer activities.

You see, Wahiguru is One without second. He is like the powerful magnet who attracts us towards Himself.

But then, how does He attracts us? Or how do we get attracted to Him?

It is by His Simran alone.

That is why the Bani says: Prabh ka Simran, sabh te oochaa. There is nothing comparable to it. It is the highest devotion which one can offer it at His Lotus Feet..

All other activities, are mere shadows of mannmat, which lead us nowhere.

One may say, what is this ? Don´t you ever have anything else to say, apart from His Simran?

You are constantly hammering on Simran alone, in terms of devotion....

Well, it is not me, nor my personal opinion.

It is the very Bani, which insists so much. It is only, that we do what we see others do or say.

And that is not correct. We should pay attention with our eyes wide open, to only what the Bani says.

Following are the words of Dhan Dhan Satguru Sachay Patshah Arjun Dev Maharaj, where we can see by ourselves the supreme importance in doing the right type of bhakti.

He says:

ਆਠ ਪਹਰ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕਾ ਜਪੁ ਜਾਪਿ
Ath Pehar Prabh Ka Japau Jaap
आठ पहर प्रभ का जपु जापि
Twenty-four hours a day, chant God's Chant.
He clearly says 24 hours .
You see, if the day had 25 or 26 hours, one could do 24 hours Simran, and the remaing time other karamkaands. But no, He says, do His Simran 24 hours.
Now we may ask, how to do 24 hours Simran?
The answer is : khaateh, peeteh, chalteh, phirteh, sovat, jaagat, visar na jaat ... premee sunoh prem kee baat.
Apart from this His constant Simran, we should try to sit for some time, and meditate on His Naam, so that our surtee soars up in the spiritual realms within, and savour the taste of Bliss, which cometh out of this His Simran.
Sat Sree Akal.
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Simran as means of devotion:

Many of us, think, that devotion to the Lord consists of several outer activities.

You see, Wahiguru is One without second. He is like the powerful magnet who attracts us towards Himself.

But then, how does He attracts us? Or how do we get attracted to Him?

It is by His Simran alone.

That is why the Bani says: Prabh ka Simran, sabh te oochaa. There is nothing comparable to it. It is the highest devotion which one can offer it at His Lotus Feet..

All other activities, are mere shadows of mannmat, which lead us nowhere.

One may say, what is this ? Don´t you ever have anything else to say, apart from His Simran?

You are constantly hammering on Simran alone, in terms of devotion....

Well, it is not me, nor my personal opinion.

It is the very Bani, which insists so much. It is only, that we do what we see others do or say.

And that is not correct. We should pay attention with our eyes wide open, to only what the Bani says.

Following are the words of Dhan Dhan Satguru Sachay Patshah Arjun Dev Maharaj, where we can see by ourselves the supreme importance in doing the right type of bhakti.

He says:

ਆਠ ਪਹਰ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕਾ ਜਪੁ ਜਾਪਿ
Ath Pehar Prabh Ka Japau Jaap
आठ पहर प्रभ का जपु जापि
Twenty-four hours a day, chant God's Chant.
He clearly says 24 hours .
You see, if the day had 25 or 26 hours, one could do 24 hours Simran, and the remaing time other karamkaands. But no, He says, do His Simran 24 hours.
Now we may ask, how to do 24 hours Simran?
The answer is : khaateh, peeteh, chalteh, phirteh, sovat, jaagat, visar na jaat ... premee sunoh prem kee baat.
Apart from this His constant Simran, we should try to sit for some time, and meditate on His Naam, so that our surtee soars up in the spiritual realms within, and savour the taste of Bliss, which cometh out of this His Simran.
Sat Sree Akal.

Har hare, har hare! Beautiful post indeed :)

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We all know Bhagat Kabir Jee was a great soul, a lover of God, we have gone through His Bani in the SGGS.

Today I was just surfing on the net, and I found this following poem of Kabeer Jee, which is very interesting, very inspirational, and which goes much with the topic of this very thread, thus I would like to share here it with the sangat.

Here it goes:

Bhaai, koi satguru sant kahaawe, nainan alakh lakhaawe.

Dolat Dige, na bolat bisare, jab updesh driDhawe.

Pran pujya, kiriya te nyara, sahaj samaadhi sikhaawe.

Dwaar na rundhe, pawan na roke, nahi anahad arujhaawe.

Yah man jaay jaha lag, jabahi, parmaatam darasaawe.

Karam kare, nihkaram rahe jo, aisi jugut lakhaawe.

Satt vilaas, traas nahi man me, bhog me jog jagaawe.

Dharati tyaagi, akasahu tyaage, adhar madaiyaa chhawe.

Sunn sikhar ke saar sila par, aasan achal jamaawe.

Bhitar raha so baahar dekhe, dooja drishTi na aawe.

Kahat Kabir basa hai hansaa, aavagaman miTaawe.

Kabir says - O brother, rare is the Saint Satguru who shows me unknowable.

He has given me such a firm knowledge that no one can shake it. It can’t be forgotten, neither can it be shaken off, such strong knowledge he has given to me.

He had shown me something dearer than my own life, beyond any actions, he has taught me to do effortless meditation. Now I don’t stop my sense organs, I don’t control my breaths, neither I get entangled in anahad sound(the sounds in meditation or yoga which make possible our reach up to Trikuti).

Now wherever and whenever the mind goes, it sees the supreme only. He has taught me such a method that even while I perform the action, I am beyond the actions.

Now I abide in Truth, having no pain in the mind. Now even in pleasures of this world I am in constant union with my beloved. I have abandoned the earth and the sky both and have made my hut in between.

On the rock of the great void, I sit and do the effortless meditation.

Now what is within is also without, what is inside is also outside, now there is no other at all.

Kabir says – the pure soul has taken such a place that the cycle of birth and death has come to an end.

If we read and understand this poem carefully, we can see that just as in Gurmat, He clearly only lays stress and utmost importance to the devotion of Naam Simran above any other practices, which are totally futile, in our goal of acheiving Him.

In the end He also says, that doing this type of devotion, one cuts off the chains forever from the mayavee creation and reach the region of Absolute Truth, Sach Khand.

Sat Sree Akal.

Would you please let me know the ang which this shabad is from. Many thanks.

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Would you please let me know the ang which this shabad is from. Many thanks.

Sikhni777 penji it's not in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji. It's a poem by Bhagat Kabir ji praising God and describing Naam Simran as Paji Harsharan ji explained.

"Satt vilaas, traas nahi man me, bhog me jog jagaawe.

Dharati tyaagi, akasahu tyaage, adhar madaiyaa chhawe."

"Now I abide in Truth, having no pain in the mind. Now even in pleasures of this world I am in constant union with my beloved. I have abandoned the earth and the sky both and have made my hut in between."

With the beloved, God, through Naam Simran. Made my hut in between, matlab ke una di atma ne rab de Naam Di khulee banaleyi, (in a spiritual sense)? If I'm understanding this Harsharan ji?

Edited by simran345
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Sikhni777 penji it's not in Sri Guru Granth Sahib ji.

It is true what Simran says, otherwise I would have surely mentioned , the Ang or Raag from SGGS

It's a poem by Bhagat Kabir ji praising God and describing Naam Simran as Paji Harsharan ji explained.

"Satt vilaas, traas nahi man me, bhog me jog jagaawe.

Dharati tyaagi, akasahu tyaage, adhar madaiyaa chhawe."

"Now I abide in Truth, having no pain in the mind. Now even in pleasures of this world I am in constant union with my beloved. I have abandoned the earth and the sky both and have made my hut in between."

With the beloved, God, through Naam Simran. Made my hut in between,

matlab ke una di atma ne rab de Naam Di khulee banaleyi, (in a spiritual sense)? If I'm understanding this Harsharan ji?

Yes Simran jee, I would say you are preety right.

The only thing I would like to add or clear is, when Kabeer Jee says He has abandoned earth and sky and made His hut in between, He means to say that, though He is in the physicall body like us human beings , moves around and looks alike us....

But there is a huge difference between us and them Gurmukhs, Sant Janas, their surtee is beyond the region of Brahm, in Parbraham , which is between Sach Khand and Parbrahm. It is to this location, where Kabeer Jee refers in His next line of the poem, when He says:

Sunn sikhar ke saar sila par, aasan achal jamaawe. On the rock of the great void, I sit and do the effortless meditation.

The region of Parbraham, is a region of inmense void, only a Gurmukh can cross and reach that place, so to say, and there, they are absorbed in the Anhad Shabad, and while being there, it is from there where they project themselves in the human form at the gross level, and in the astral and causal planes, their swaroop is of Jot in accordance to those planes, and as we move above and above, we shall see their Sat Shabad swaroop.

These Sant Janas, true Gurmukhs do not come to create any new religion, that is not their purpose, they only come with the message of Wahiguru Akal Purukh, to awaken us in the Truth of Satnam or Shabad, which we know also as Gurmat, as in the Gurbani. It is we people that after they have gone, turn out their teachings into rituals, ceremonies and outer activities, binding them into a so called religion, which have not even an atom of Truth. Because we want to hold on everything else, but not the Naam or Shabad, to which, all of them give absolutely supreme importance.

Sat Sree Akal.

Edited by harsharan000

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Wahiguru is our paalanhaar, our sustainer, we have heard it many times.

Many a times we are afraid, that if we give more time and attention to Wahiguru, through His devotion or abhyaas, who will look after our work, our family, our jobs...etc.

For that our doubt and uncomplete faith, Sree Guru Arjun Dev Maharaj, assures us that, if we give our heart , mind and body without any reservation to Him, He will not leave us, rather hold us tighter like a mother to its baby child.

Satgur sikh kaa, halat palat savaarai.
The True Guru, arranges this world and the next for His Sikh.

The thing is we profess love and devtion to Wahiguru according to our limited and polluted minds, but according to our Guru Sahibans, when we love somebody we want to please that being, by doing what it likes most....

Wahiguru, is also a jealous lover.

He wants us to give ourselves totally to Him, by surrendering our ego, our bondages, our ignorance....just by only doing what He expects from us, which is to live and love Him according to the Bani.

He does not wants our money, nor properties...nothing, but only our mind and soul, full of humility, love, devotion, and fear of not doing anything, which He could dislike...

Toon Thakur Beant, kou virla jaane...

Edited by harsharan000
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The essence, the objective of the realization of the Supreme divinity in Gurmat, is Wahiguru through His Naam or Shabad.

Following are the words of Sachay Patshah Dhan Dhan Satguru Arjun Dev Maharaj in Raag Maroo, where He clearly states, that doing any other type of Bhakti or devotion, is as good as being corrupted or polluted with filth, and as such, we can never ever merge in Him, do whatever we may.

ਨਾਨਕ ਵਿਣੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਆਲੂਦਿਆ ਜਿਤੀ ਹੋਰੁ ਖਿਆਲੁ

Naanak Vin Navai Aloodhia Jithee Hor Khial

नानक विणु नावै आलूदिआ जिती होरु खिआलु

O Nanak, without the Name, other thoughts are polluted and corrupt.

* One can see that Guru Sahibans , Gurmukhs, do not need to give big big complicated lectures, to convey us the simple yet profound spiritual truths.

In just a line of 6 or 7 words, they disclose all the depth, all the inmensity of true spirituality .....

Why or how is that possible?

Because they are the very embodiment of the Supreme Truth.

Sat Sree Akal.

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The essence, the objective of the realization of the Supreme divinity in Gurmat, is Wahiguru through His Naam or Shabad.

Following are the words of Sachay Patshah Dhan Dhan Satguru Arjun Dev Maharaj in Raag Maroo, where He clearly states, that doing any other type of Bhakti or devotion, is as good as being corrupted or polluted with filth, and as such, we can never ever merge in Him, do whatever we may.

ਨਾਨਕ ਵਿਣੁ ਨਾਵੈ ਆਲੂਦਿਆ ਜਿਤੀ ਹੋਰੁ ਖਿਆਲੁ

Naanak Vin Navai Aloodhia Jithee Hor Khial

नानक विणु नावै आलूदिआ जिती होरु खिआलु

O Nanak, without the Name, other thoughts are polluted and corrupt.

* One can see that Guru Sahibans , Gurmukhs, do not need to give big big complicated lectures, to convey us the simple yet profound spiritual truths.

In just a line of 6 or 7 words, they disclose all the depth, all the inmensity of true spirituality .....

Why or how is that possible?

Because they are the very embodiment of the Supreme Truth.

Sat Sree Akal.

ਬਿਲਾਵਲੁ ਮਹਲਾ ੫ ॥ बिलावलु महला ५ ॥ Bilāval mėhlā 5. Bilawal 5th Guru.

ਭੂਲੇ ਮਾਰਗੁ ਜਿਨਹਿ ਬਤਾਇਆ ॥ भूले मारगु जिनहि बताइआ ॥ Bẖūle mārag jinėh baṯā▫i▫ā.

One who shows the Lord's path to the erring mortal;

ਐਸਾ ਗੁਰੁ ਵਡਭਾਗੀ ਪਾਇਆ ॥੧॥ ऐसा गुरु वडभागी पाइआ ॥१॥ Aisā gur vadbẖāgī pā▫i▫ā. ||1||

such a Guru is found by the greatest good fortunate.

ਸਿਮਰਿ ਮਨਾ ਰਾਮ ਨਾਮੁ ਚਿਤਾਰੇ ॥ सिमरि मना राम नामु चितारे ॥ Simar manā rām nām cẖiṯāre.

O my soul, contemplate and utter thou the Lord's Name.

ਬਸਿ ਰਹੇ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਗੁਰ ਚਰਨ ਪਿਆਰੇ ॥੧॥ ਰਹਾਉ ॥ बसि रहे हिरदै गुर चरन पिआरे ॥१॥ रहाउ ॥ Bas rahe hirḏai gur cẖaran pi▫āre. ||1|| rahā▫o.

The Guru's loved feet are enshrined within my mind. Pause.

ਕਾਮਿ ਕ੍ਰੋਧਿ ਲੋਭਿ ਮੋਹਿ ਮਨੁ ਲੀਨਾ ॥ कामि क्रोधि लोभि मोहि मनु लीना ॥ Kām kroḏẖ lobẖ mohi man līnā.

My mind is engrossed in lust, wrath, avarice and worldly attachments.

ਬੰਧਨ ਕਾਟਿ ਮੁਕਤਿ ਗੁਰਿ ਕੀਨਾ ॥੨॥ बंधन काटि मुकति गुरि कीना ॥२॥ Banḏẖan kāt mukaṯ gur kīnā. ||2||

Snapping my bonds the Guru has emancipated me.

ਦੁਖ ਸੁਖ ਕਰਤ ਜਨਮਿ ਫੁਨਿ ਮੂਆ ॥ दुख सुख करत जनमि फुनि मूआ ॥ Ḏukẖ sukẖ karaṯ janam fun mū▫ā.

Enduring weal and woe, the mortal comes and goes again and again.

ਚਰਨ ਕਮਲ ਗੁਰਿ ਆਸ੍ਰਮੁ ਦੀਆ ॥੩॥ चरन कमल गुरि आस्रमु दीआ ॥३॥ Cẖaran kamal gur āsram ḏī▫ā. ||3||

The Guru's lotus feet bless him with peace.

ਅਗਨਿ ਸਾਗਰ ਬੂਡਤ ਸੰਸਾਰਾ ॥ अगनि सागर बूडत संसारा ॥ Agan sāgar būdaṯ sansārā.

In the ocean of fire, the world is being drowned.

ਨਾਨਕ ਬਾਹ ਪਕਰਿ ਸਤਿਗੁਰਿ ਨਿਸਤਾਰਾ ॥੪॥੩॥੮॥ नानक बाह पकरि सतिगुरि निसतारा ॥४॥३॥८॥ Nānak bāh pakar saṯgur nisṯārā. ||4||3||8||

Holding me by the arm the True Guru has saved me, O Nanak.

Raag Bilaaval Guru Arjan Dev Ji Ang 803

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Simran Jee,

beautiful Shabad above of Fifth Patshahee.

It is one of my most favourites.

Thank you.

Following is a Shabad sung by Amarjit Singh Patiala Wale. Titled: " Bin Har Simran "

The voice is powerful and melodious also, and the Bani as usual is Amrit, for our souls.

Sat Sree Akal.

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HAR IKO DAATA SEVIYE, HAR IK DHIAEEYEH

ਪਉੜੀ ॥
pa-orhee.
Pauree:

ਹਰਿ ਇਕੋ ਦਾਤਾ ਸੇਵੀਐ ਹਰਿ ਇਕੁ ਧਿਆਈਐ ॥
har iko daataa sayvee-ai har ik Dhi-aa-ee-ai.
Serve the One Lord, the Great Giver; meditate on the One Lord.

ਹਰਿ ਇਕੋ ਦਾਤਾ ਮੰਗੀਐ ਮਨ ਚਿੰਦਿਆ ਪਾਈਐ ॥
har iko daataa mangee-ai man chindi-aa paa-ee-ai.
Beg from the One Lord, the Great Giver, and you shall obtain your heart's desires.

ਜੇ ਦੂਜੇ ਪਾਸਹੁ ਮੰਗੀਐ ਤਾ ਲਾਜ ਮਰਾਈਐ ॥
jay doojay paashu mangee-ai taa laaj maraa-ee-ai.
But if you beg from another, then you shall be shamed and destroyed.

ਜਿਨਿ ਸੇਵਿਆ ਤਿਨਿ ਫਲੁ ਪਾਇਆ ਤਿਸੁ ਜਨ ਕੀ ਸਭ ਭੁਖ ਗਵਾਈਐ ॥
jin sayvi-aa tin fal paa-i-aa tis jan kee sabh bhukh gavaa-ee-ai.
One who serves the Lord obtains the fruits of his rewards; all of his hunger is satisfied.

ਨਾਨਕੁ ਤਿਨ ਵਿਟਹੁ ਵਾਰਿਆ ਜਿਨ ਅਨਦਿਨੁ ਹਿਰਦੈ ਹਰਿ ਨਾਮੁ ਧਿਆਈਐ ॥੧੦॥
naanak tin vitahu vaari-aa jin an-din hirdai har naam Dhi-aa-ee-ai. ||10||
Nanak is a sacrifice to those, who night and day, meditate within their hearts on the Name of the Lord. ||

In this Shabad above sung by the Raagi, Guru Jee is mainly telling us, that if you want to serve, devote or love anybody as the Lord, just meditate on the One Wahiguru alone.

Because if you go on begging from several doors, like gods, godesses, devtas, etc; then you shall pass with shame to the next world.

Why?

Because from others, you can at most get Baikunth, Swarg, Shivpuri or Brahamlok, but there is not Wahiguru, so you just waste away your golden opportunity of the human birth, for the sake of worshhiping those beings which are not more worthy than stones.

On the contrary, if you worship the One True Lord Wahiguru, you fulfill your coming as human, and also quench all your thrist for all mayavee desires, which is the root cause for all our maladies, thus, cut your bonds from the cycle of births and deaths, to only become wholly pure to reach Sach Khand, the realm of utmost Truth and Love, to only merge in Wahiguru Nirankar and become one with Him.

This is the wadeeayee of Wahiguru´s devotion, becoming one with Him.

We must bear in mind, from Wahiguru we shall only get Him. If we expect any other thing than Him, apart from Him, then Nature in form of gods, maya... is eveready there to satsify all our wishes, with the cost of having to pay in being prisoner in the Chaurasee ka Chakar for a very very long time..... Only stupid manmukhs can do so, not His bhagats, not His devotees...not His real sikhs

From Wahiguru, we can only, and only get Him. If He were to give us anything less than Him, than for sure we would be condemmed for ever, nobody could ever help us.

That is why the Bani says: Jevad Aap, tevad Teree daat.

And the fact is, He wants us back with Him, that is why Gurmukhs, Bhagats, Sant Janas, Guru Sahibans come time after time, to remind us of Him, and reconnect us with Him, with the power of Naam and Shabad.

Waheguru Waheguru Waheguru ......

Edited by harsharan000

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Dear Preet Jee,

let me answer some of your queries in the post above.

Sorry for the delay, not that I had forgotten, but I wanted just some time to answer you.

Harsharan000 ji

what were your thoughts on that story of Ajamal in our religion?

Gurbani is very clear, when it says: Sach Khand vasay Nirankar.

Means, He is formless.

Gurmat describes Wahiguru as the highest level of consciouss energy, which is equal to calling that Supreme Power, as Naam or Shabad.

And this power is an inmense ocean of bliss, mercy, and love as its major virtues.

Third Patshahee tells us in Anand Sahib: Naam jinke man vaseeya, vaajeh Shabad ganere. Means, when you are blessed by Him and get Naam pargat within you, you realize as akhoot Light and sweet melodious sound or dhun.

Moreover in Aarti, we listen: Sabh meh Jot, Jot hae soee. Means, He is Light and is present in all jeevas, as a ray of that Light, which we call soul. And this has its logic or makes sense.

Because as energy, analogically, He is Aroop, Alakh, Agam, Anami..... And in Sach Khand, though He is omnipresent, He is there in His full splendour.

So in Baikunth you can see the being Vishnu Jee, in form, with 4 arms, with wife Lakshmi, sitting on Seshanaag on a milk of ocean. This is his real form. And all this does not telly at all with Gurbani.

I will not go deep into why in the Bani Vishnu Jee is mentioned in various ways, with his avatars as Krishna or Rama, but for me it is suffice, to be clear enough that neither Vishnu Jee, nor the hindu trinity, with all the other gods and godesses can ever be subsitutes for the only one reality, Wahiguru Akal Purukh.

To mistake Vishnu or anyone else as equal or equation to Wahiguru, is being in a state of profound stupidity or braham.

No matter if a big part of humanity worships him, but thanks to our Guru Sahibans and Gurmukhs, we know if there is anyone, whom we should offer our love and devotion, that One is Wahiguru alone.

I think he existed before Sikhi, and before Sikhi the name of Narayan was the name of Sri Vishnu which is the same name as God.

So, if they share the same names, I was trying to say that if a Vaishnav worships Sri Vishnu, or any other God with the name of God, the bhakti of naam simran all leads to Paramatman Sri Vaheguru, just as Ajamal named his child Narayan because Sadhus told him to since the Sadhus knew that even repeating Narayan once is recorded as a punya.

Punya is a part of duality, the opposite pair of paap or sin. So repeating Narayan or Vishnu, is still being very much as part and parcel of the mayavee creation.

While repating the Name of Wahiguru, is suffice and the only adecuate Jahaaz, to take us beyond the realms of gods, swargs, Baikunth, Brahmalok, or Shivpuri much much higher ....direct to Sach Khand.

Devotees of Sri Vishnu are highly blessed beings as well and God loves people who worship Sri Vishnu.

Sorry jee, but this a also an misconception widely spread all over.

Why would God love those who worship Vishnu? Because, worshiping Vishnu will take to the realm of Baikunth, and this means away from Wahiguru, away from Sach Khand.

Preet Jee, I admire your love and devotion, but if you allow me to give you an humble suggestion as a brother: give all your heart, mind and soul fully, without any reservations to Wahiguru only.

Because then something beyond any imaginaton will take place with His grace : you will become one with Him.

Not because I say this, but because the pure paviter Bani of our Guru sahibans, says : Jin Har (Wahiguru, Satnam, Ikoankar) japeeya, se Har hoeeya.

Sat Sree akal.

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Dear Preet Jee,

let me answer some of your queries in the post above.

Sorry for the delay, not that I had forgotten, but I wanted just some time to answer you.

Totally agree with you Harsharan paji on everything you have wrote here. Nothing is equivalent or higher than, the praises of Waheguru.

I like Sant Singh Maskeen ji's katha :

Edited by simran345
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I just thought I'd add in something here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rh2KzeJJZ0

This explains how the Deva got these names and why worshiping them isn't the same as Worshiping Akaal. To use an analogy posed by Balkaar Bhaji, It's like taking a chocolate bar, taking the wrapper off and throwing away the chocolate and eating the wrapper.

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Following is a beautiful prayer or poem of Bhagat Nam Dev :

Always be in rapport with the Lord

And enjoy true contentment

This is the state of ineffable serenity

There is peace, except in the Name of the Lord.

Meditate on it with one pointed attention

Experience the state of superconsciousness

where the Lord´s love surges

And you will see your own form

In each particle of the creation.

O Nama, the Lord will make

The pupil of your eye His home

And your eye will expand

To contain the entire universe.

Sat Sree Akal.

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