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sikhni777,

Nice words jee.

But I would say, these deities have their powers due to the role they have to play in the creation, not that they ask for it.

Just as law authorizes a policeman to catch a thief, or a judge to send someone to prison ....

In a similar way, Nature has given them(these gods) such attributes in order not to display them but to run the mayavee creation to an extent. That´s it.

Because as you very well say in a line below, they also ask for the alms for the Lord´s meditation and praise.

Then if so is the case, then naturally it makes no sense in worshipping them, but rather according to the Bani, directly to Wahiguru Akal Purukh.

Because as stated beautifully at the end of the Shabad quoted by you above, they too, if they want emancipation, they too have to come first in the human joonee, and grasp the Feet of a Gurmukh, of a Sadh Jana, who are one with Wahiguru Akal Purukh, and thus get the Amrit Naam from them.

Sat Sree Akal.

Bhaji. With all Due respect. These Devi-Devta play a little role in the running of the Creation. Akaal Purkh thyself creates and Akaal Purkh thyself destroys when he wishes. Akaal Purkh Sustains and Akaal Purkh tears down.

In Benti Chaupai the 10th Lord makes that clear in the Pauri regarding when God expands creation comes forth and when he absorbs all within him Creation is destroyed.

The Gods aand Goddess, from my understanding of the Bachitar Natak came after creation. Akaal Purkh created them but they themselves became so absorbed in the Worship of Power that they forget their creator.

ਜਬ ਪਹਿਲੇ ਹਮ ਸ੍ਰਿਸਟਿ ਬਨਾਈ ॥ ਦਈਤ ਰਚੇ ਦੁਸਟ ਦੁਖਦਾਈ ॥

जब पहिले हम स्रिसटि बनाई ॥ दईत रचे दुसट दुखदाई ॥
When I created the world in the beginning, I created the ignominious and dreadful Daityas.

ਤੇ ਹਮ ਤਮਕਿ ਤਨਕ ਮੋ ਖਾਪੇ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕੀ ਠਉਰ ਦੇਵਤਾ ਥਾਪੇ ॥

ते हम तमकि तनक मो खापे ॥ तिन की ठउर देवता थापे ॥
I destroyed them in no time and created gods in their place.
ਤੇ ਭੀ ਬਲਿ ਪੂਜਾ ਉਰਝਾਏ ॥ ਆਪਨ ਹੀ ਪਰਮੇਸੁਰ ਕਹਾਏ ॥੭॥
ते भी बलि पूजा उरझाए ॥ आपन ही परमेसुर कहाए ॥७॥
They were also absorbed in the worship of power and called themselves Ominipotednt.7.
ਮਹਾਦੇਵ ਅਚੁੱਤ ਕਹਾਯੋ ॥ ਬਿਸਨ ਆਪ ਹੀ ਕੋ ਠਹਿਰਾਯੋ ॥
महादेव अचु्त कहायो ॥ बिसन आप ही को ठहिरायो ॥
Mahadeo (Shiva) was called Achyuta (blotless), Vishnu considered himself the Supreme.
ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ ਆਪ ਪਾਰਬ੍ਰਹਮ ਬਖਾਨਾ ॥ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੋ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਨ ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਜਾਨਾ ॥੮॥
ब्रहमा आप पारब्रहम बखाना ॥ प्रभ को प्रभू न किनहूं जाना ॥८॥
Brahma called himself Para Brahman, none could comprehend the Lord.8.
ਤਬ ਸਾਖੀ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਅਸਟ ਬਨਾਏ ॥ ਸਾਖ ਨਮਿਤ ਦੇਬੇ ਠਹਿਰਾਏ ॥
तब साखी प्रभ असट बनाए ॥ साख नमित देबे ठहिराए ॥
Then I created eight Sakshis in order to give evidence of my Entity.
ਤੇ ਕਹੈ ਕਰੋ ਹਮਾਰੀ ਪੂਜਾ ॥ ਹਮ ਬਿਨ ਅਵਰੁ ਨ ਠਾਕੁਰੁ ਦੂਜਾ ॥੯॥
ते कहै करो हमारी पूजा ॥ हम बिन अवरु न ठाकुरु दूजा ॥९॥
But they considered themselves all in all and aasked the people to worship them.9.
ਪਰਮ ਤਤ ਕੋ ਜਿਨ ਨ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥ ਤਿਨ ਕਰਿ ਈਸਰ ਤਿਨ ਕਹੁ ਮਾਨਾ ॥
परम तत को जिन न पछाना ॥ तिन करि ईसर तिन कहु माना ॥
Those who did not comprehend the Lord, they were considered as Ishvara.
ਕੇਤੇ ਸੂਰ ਚੰਦ ਕਹੁ ਮਾਨੈ ॥ ਅਗਨਿ ਹੋਤ੍ਰ ਕਈ ਪਵਨ ਪ੍ਰਮਾਨੈ ॥੧੦॥
केते सूर चंद कहु मानै ॥ अगनि होत्र कई पवन प्रमानै ॥१०॥
Several people worshipped the sun and the moon and several others worshipped Fire and Ait.10.
ਕਿਨਹੂੰ ਪ੍ਰਭੁ ਪਾਹਨ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ॥ ਨ੍ਹਾਤ ਕਿਤੇ ਜਲ ਕਰਤ ਬਿਧਾਨਾ ॥
किनहूं प्रभु पाहन पहिचाना ॥ न्हात किते जल करत बिधाना ॥
Several them considered God as stone and several others bathed considering the Lordship of Water.
ਕੇਤਕ ਕਰਮ ਕਰਤ ਡਰਪਾਨਾ ॥ ਧਰਮ ਰਾਜ ਕੋ ਧਰਮ ਪਛਾਨਾ ॥੧੧॥
केतक करम करत डरपाना ॥ धरम राज को धरम पछाना ॥११॥
Considering Dharmaraja as the Supreme representative of Dharma, several bore fear of him in their actions. 11.
ਜੋ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਸਾਖ ਨਮਿਤ ਠਹਿਰਾਏ ॥ ਤੇ ਹਿਆਂ ਆਇ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਕਹਵਾਏ ॥
जो प्रभ साख नमित ठहिराए ॥ ते हिआं आइ प्रभू कहवाए ॥
All those whom God established for the revelation of His Supremacy, they themselves were called Supreme.
ਤਾ ਕੀ ਬਾਤ ਬਿਸਰ ਜਾਤੀ ਭੀ ॥ ਅਪਨੀ ਅਪਨੀ ਪਰਤ ਸੋਭ ਭੀ ॥੧੨॥
ता की बात बिसर जाती भी ॥ अपनी अपनी परत सोभ भी ॥१२॥
They forgot the Lord in their race for supremacy. 12
ਜਬ ਪ੍ਰਭ ਕੋ ਨ ਤਿਨੈ ਪਹਿਚਾਨਾ ॥ ਤਬ ਹਰਿ ਇਨ ਮਨੁਛਨ ਠਹਿਰਾਨਾ ॥
जब प्रभ को न तिनै पहिचाना ॥ तब हरि इन मनुछन ठहिराना ॥
When they did not comprehend the Lord, then I established human beings in their place.

In my humblest Opinion. The gods are nothing more than extremely powerful beings that Mahakaal blessed with Power. The Jobs that many people attribute to Brahma,Vishnu,Shiva are all being done by the Lord.
The dogs are entangled in Maya like the rest of us.
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पवणु पाणी अगनि तिनि कीआ ब्रहमा बिसनु महेस अकार ॥

Pavaṇ pāṇī agan ṯin kī▫ā barahmā bisan mahes akār.

He has created air, water, fire, Brahma, Vishnu, Shiva and the entire creation.

ਉਸ ਨੇ ਹਵਾ, ਜਲ, ਅੱਗ, ਬ੍ਰਹਮਾ, ਵਿਸ਼ਨੂੰ, ਸ਼ਿਵਜੀ ਅਤੇ ਸਮੂਹ ਰਚਨਾ ਸਾਜੀ ਹੈ।

सरबे जाचिक तूं प्रभु दाता दाति करे अपुनै बीचार ॥४॥

Sarbe jācẖik ṯūʼn parabẖ ḏāṯā ḏāṯ kare apunai bīcẖār. ||4||

All are mumpers, Thou alone art the Beneficent Lord. Thou givest volition.

ਸਾਰੇ ਮੰਗਤੇ ਹਨ, ਕੇਵਲ ਤੂੰ ਹੀ ਦਾਤਾਰ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਹੈ। ਤੂੰ ਆਪਣੀ ਰਜ਼ਾ ਅਨੁਸਾਰ ਬਖਸ਼ਸ਼ਾਂ ਦਿੰਦਾ ਹੈ।

कोटि तेतीस जाचहि प्रभ नाइक देदे तोटि नाही भंडार ॥

Kot ṯeṯīs jācẖėh parabẖ nā▫ik ḏeḏe ṯot nāhī bẖandār.

Thirty three millions of gods bed (actually supposed to be beg) of the Lord Master, whose treasures exhaust not by giving.

ਤੇਤੀ ਕ੍ਰੋੜ ਦੇਵਤੇ ਸੁਆਮੀ ਮਾਲਕ ਪਾਸੋਂ ਮੰਗਦੇ ਹਨ, ਜਿਸ ਦੇ ਖਜਾਨੇ, ਦੇਣ ਨਾਲ ਮੁੱਕਦੇ ਨਹੀਂ।

mumpers above means beggars.

volition meaning blessings, asisa

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Thankuji so much Harsharan paji, Sikhni777 penji and Kira ji for your kind responses.

For some reason I am not able to like Sikhni777 ji's posts, the screen jumps when I click on like. Another question, (deleted, sorryji I already asked it in the first post ) .and Jacfsing2 ji, I can't spell oops for your reply too. Thanku ji for ur reply too* not typing too well today. ?

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Bhaji. With all Due respect. These Devi-Devta play a little role in the running of the Creation. Akaal Purkh thyself creates and Akaal Purkh thyself destroys when he wishes. Akaal Purkh Sustains and Akaal Purkh tears down.

In Benti Chaupai the 10th Lord makes that clear in the Pauri regarding when God expands creation comes forth and when he absorbs all within him Creation is destroyed.

The Gods aand Goddess, from my understanding of the Bachitar Natak came after creation. Akaal Purkh created them but they themselves became so absorbed in the Worship of Power that they forget their creator.

In my humblest Opinion. The gods are nothing more than extremely powerful beings that Mahakaal blessed with Power. The Jobs that many people attribute to Brahma,Vishnu,Shiva are all being done by the Lord.
The dogs are entangled in Maya like the rest of us.

Wise words full of truth Kira Jee.

The Shabads or quotations you have provided are just fantastic.

Overall, your post denotes deep reverence and a solid faith in Wahiguru, which is admirable. And such sincere attitude of devotion, makes me feel to bless(best wishes) you, so that you may achieve your goal Wahiguru, as soon as possible with His grace.

Next.... I have no doubt at all, that everything is executed by His Hukum, to the extent, that, as some has beautifully said: not even a leaf of a tree can move without His Hukum.

When I say, that these gods have a role to play, I mean to say, they are also under His Hukum. Nobody can dare to do anything if that is not His will.

Neither have we any power or control about our lives.

Do we know why we were sent in this world?

Do we know since when we are in this mayavee creation?

What have we done until today to not be here?

So if we are nothing and have no power, what does that mean? Everything is executed perfectly by His Hukum.

What control do we have over overfloods, over earth quakes, over natural disasters? T

To some may seem, that if He exists, why do these things happen? Why does He not stop them?

The answer to this is also, that is because it is due to His Hukum, though unlogic for our poor understanding, but still it is nothing but His hukum in motion.

To blame gods and others(kaal purukh, maya, mind for instance) for anything, is ridicule, because they also act as per the roles assigned to them, with the appropiate tools, so that they may perform their jobs adecuately.

Here in our world, when a boss emplyos someone, the employee can be not worthy in the long run, and turn out to be a fraud.

But in Wahiguru´s case, this can never ocurr. Not because of anything else, but because He is perfect, He knows beforehand what is going to happen, He is the Supreme director, He knows at all times what is going to happen next, because He planned so right from the microscopic levels to the Macro Cosmos levels and beyond, nothing is without His consentment. The actors have no choice, in wanting to be the main hero in the film, or not wanting to play the role of a vilain, or rich or poor...and so on

It is all per His will.

As the Bani says, to those whom He wants to call back to Him, He makes them do the right devotion; to others He keeps them confused with maya, karam khands, gods, etc..., so they keep wandering in the creation.

You see, if He wants the creation to go on running, there must be something to keep distracted the jeevas.

It is not that easy to have faith in Him, or love Him. That also is by His Hukum.

So whom to blame?

Rather we should feel pity for all who do not know the real value of Gurmat, because after all from our level, we do understand, they too are His jeevas, and we wished they too knew wht we know today, so that they may also finish their wandering as soon as possible.

There was a time, when I used to get affected, when I used to explain the simple Truths of Gurmat, and saw that even then no effect was on them, rather turn against me after that ....

So I made myself understand, not that if I bring a nail and a hammer, and make a hole in the heads of the people and put Gurmat, that they will understand and accept it, becasue they are not mature enough yet to accept Gurmat, by His Hukum.

So dear, who can go against His Hukum? Naturally nobody.

But then too, Wahiguru´s mahima, never goes in waste. No matter if today someone does not accept the teachings, but as the seed of His mahima has gone into that being, its purity will automatically make an impression in them, which will turn out for their benefit, as good sanskaras in future lives.

Sat Sree Akal.

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Guest Jacfsing2

Thankuji so much Harsharan paji, Sikhni777 penji and Kira ji for your kind responses.

For some reason I am not able to like Sikhni777 ji's posts, the screen jumps when I click on like. Another question, (deleted, sorryji I already asked it in the first post ) .and Jacfsing2 ji, I can't spell oops for your reply too. Thanku ji for ur reply too* not typing too well today. ?

We all have those days when we don't feel well.
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I have always wondered what Guru Gobind Singh Ji did before he brought Amrit to us via the panj peyare.

I have read in a certain book that he performed a havan up in the mountain and took a pandit with him. Then Durga the shakti came and presented him with a sword which he brought down.

This pandit actually ran away and hid when Guru Gobind Singh Ji asked for his head.

Well anyone know more about this story or whether there is any truth in it ?

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[a role to play, I mean to say, they are also under His Hukum. Nobody can dare to do anything if that is not His will.[/font]

To blame gods and others(kaal purukh, maya, mind for instance) for anything, is ridicule, because they also act as per the roles assigned to them, with the appropiate tools, so that they may perform their jobs adecuately.

Here in our world, when a boss emplyos someone, the employee can be not worthy in the long run, and turn out to be a fraud.

But in Wahiguru´s case, this can never ocurr. Not because of anything else, but because He is perfect, He knows beforehand what is going to happen, He is the Supreme director, He knows at all times what is going to happen next, because He planned so right from the microscopic levels to the Macro Cosmos levels and beyond, nothing is without His consentment. The actors have no choice, in wanting to be the main hero in the film, or not wanting to play the role of a vilain, or rich or poor...and so on

It is all per His will.

As the Bani says, to those whom He wants to call back to Him, He makes them do the right devotion; to others He keeps them confused with maya, karam khands, gods, etc..., so they keep wandering in the creation.

You see, if He wants the creation to go on running, there must be something to keep distracted the jeevas.

It is not that easy to have faith in Him, or love Him. That also is by His Hukum.

So whom to blame?

Rather we should feel pity for all who do not know the real value of Gurmat, because after all from our level, we do understand, they too are His jeevas, and we wished they too knew wht we know today, so that they may also finish their wandering as soon as possible.

So dear, who can go against His Hukum? Naturally nobody.

Sat Sree Akal.

Harsharan paji, one thing I don't understand is I know those spirits, deities, should not do anything that is not the hukam of God, but then there are people that go to those people(babas) that worship them and get bad experiences from them. So is that the play of the person (baba) or of the deities, spirits etc? Where is the line drawn? Also can a person (baba), as they are called, misuse the deities powers? And what happens if they do?

Agree with your comment of not being easy to have faith and love for Waheguru without their hukam, one may try very hard, but it will only happen with Gods grace.

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