DalbirSingh

Do Moneh Have The Right To Ask Sikh Question Or Talk About Sikhi?

89 posts in this topic

you have just said a path is only needed to achieve our goal, so a path is still needed.

Maarag Paaeae Oudhiaan Mehi Gur Dhasae Bhaeth ||1||

In the wilderness, the guru places them on the path, and reveals the secrets of the Lord's Mystery. ||1||

Ang 810

Eihu Jag Andhhaa Sabh Andhh Kamaavai Bin Gur Mag N Paaeae ||

This world is blind, and all act blindly; without the guru, no one finds the path.

Ang 603

Guru Gobind Singh ji was one with God ( DVAI TE EK ROOP HAVAI GEYO ) but he still forged a path through kalyug , so people could have a chance.

PANTH CHALEY TABH JAGAT MEH JAB TUM KARO SAHAY

i will start this new path in the world, when you help me to do so

and then he bowed to it and submitted to this path himself - even though he was one with God

Yes, agreed but I never said not to have a path also a path does not necessarily mean a religion either some sort of sat gyan or practice or whatever is needed to realise yourself. The path can also be through religion and yes sikhi will definitely help someone realise the truth. No hindu, no muslim and no sikh etc does not mean having a path as I explained. The oneness also does not mean that all religions are equal - what was meant in simple terms was the nirgun saroop in everyone is the same.

Edited by Consciousness

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On 8/11/2013 at 7:57 AM, SSD said:

I believe that if we want to become Gursikhs than we should start out as not viewing people as Kesh-Cuters any less than those who keep Kesh, One the original Panj Pyare used to be a barber, and also Bhagat Sain, Kesh could make you more holy, however to be enlightened it takes more than just keeping Kesh, everyone who ever converted to Sikhi used to cut their hairs, and if we actually taught the Sehajdhari today maybe they will change as well. Guru Ji did ask as to keep Kesh, I understand that fact completely; keeping Kesh can only be done if someone knows why they are doing it.{Bhagat Singh kept his Kesh after meeting Bhai Rahinder Singh, Bhagat Singh stated that he only kept his Kesh in the first place was because of his family traditions, prior to meeting Bhai Ji he kept his Kesh.} So we should at least give them a chance maybe they'll change, I used to be Sehajdhari because I didn't like to follow blind faith; but learning more about Sikhi and Bhai Taru Singh I have kept my Kesh; even once I kept my Kesh I feel like there is still so much to learn, maybe Waheguru just brings people to the truth at the right time. However, if you want to truly follow Sikhi and follow your Guru, and continue mediation, if you understand why we keep Kesh you probably should do it

This view still holds the same for me now. (SSD and Jacfsing2 are the same person,) I wanted to bump this thread in case anyone wanted to still respond, the Kesh is not the be all of being a Sikh, and even when I was a Mona, I wasn't some crazy bad guy, but still trying to find the truth. Sometimes I feel like the old people in our Panth seem to be too judgemental to those who made mistakes. Another reason for bumping this thread to see if anyone wanted to add something to it. (Also some folks seem to believe they inspired me, when really it was Gur-Prassad, not their judgemental attitudes which brought me to Gurmat again).

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The problem is not with Moneh "Sikhs" talking about sikhi. It is when they claim to touch on the sensitive issues, such as Dasam bani, raagmala, bhagati, nihung singhs' maryada. If a mona goes to the gurdwara, does the sewa of shoes/kitchen utensils, or constantly seeks to be closer to guru ji- reads bani/reads books/listens to katha, it is all well.

 

giani kulwant singh and some other less-known scholars/great-beings deny the idea of sehajdhari sikhs as such, they say that such sikhs are those born in other religions but found themselves in sikhi. 

 

And moneh Sikhs have to stop pinpointing at amritdharis with faults. They started their journey already, they are fixing themselves, when you couldn't even follow the primary rehat of being a Sikh.

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4 hours ago, Khalistanisinghni said:

The problem is not with Moneh "Sikhs" talking about sikhi. It is when they claim to touch on the sensitive issues, such as Dasam bani, raagmala, bhagati, nihung singhs' maryada. If a mona goes to the gurdwara, does the sewa of shoes/kitchen utensils, or constantly seeks to be closer to guru ji- reads bani/reads books/listens to katha, it is all well.

 

giani kulwant singh and some other less-known scholars/great-beings deny the idea of sehajdhari sikhs as such, they say that such sikhs are those born in other religions but found themselves in sikhi. 

 

And moneh Sikhs have to stop pinpointing at amritdharis with faults. They started their journey already, they are fixing themselves, when you couldn't even follow the primary rehat of being a Sikh.

I agree somewhat with your words ... the problems come from people being judged as not being knowledgeable enough because of outward bhes to question such matters.  

The definition you mention is the definition mentioned in old rehitname as sehajdhari have slightly different expected rehit before they become full sikhs by charan di pahul where they would have to increase their banian and keep gursikh roop in full.. 

Those who have gained entry to the path should really be loving and welcoming to the seekers , prem will achieve much more than harshness to change those peoples' internal impression. I have heard many times that amritdharis are too harsh and judgemental, they look down on us etc etc . If Guru ji can save Ganika , Sajjan Thug and the worst of the worst surely being His children we can accept that these seekers are asking because their time has come to be drawn closer .

Edited by jkvlondon

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1 hour ago, Khalistanisinghni said:

And moneh Sikhs have to stop pinpointing at amritdharis with faults. They started their journey already, they are fixing themselves, when you couldn't even follow the primary rehat of being a Sikh.

I go hard on fellow Amritdharis on this site. I believe we need to conduct ourselves with the necessary decorum befitting of those who've taken amrit, and hold ourselves to a higher standard. However, that unfortunately translates to some of us assuming airs and graces that are frankly laughable. It's the ego gone rampant, and I think most of this behaviour originates from some parcharaks and holy men filling impressionable heads with certain views in order to increase Amritdhari numbers so that being Gursikh carries a certain sense of prestige. And we know that humans love feeling unique and special. Extra masala is not needed to lend Gursikhi prestige. It speaks for itself.

However, I agree with the above opinion in bold to an extent. I should preface my words with the fact that the "best" Sikhs I've ever known (however one chooses to measure such things: knowledge, humility, wisdom, patience) started off as moneh. 

BUT there's a small group who have no intention of ever lowering their head in humility at the feet of Guru Sahib, yet they see no issue with pontificating about Sikh issues they should think twice about commenting on as if they're approaching the situation from a place of authority. I can understand if these guys are actively working towards a stage of adopting Gursikhi, no matter how gradually, but in most cases there's never any intention of doing so. Everyone can have an opinion, no problem, but there's certain things that people need to understand can only be discussed with any perceivable sense of confidence and comprehension if you've walked that path yourself.

Anyway, apologies if I've offended anyone. This subject is particularly sensitive for people on both sides of the divide.

Edited by MisterrSingh

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1 hour ago, jkvlondon said:

I agree somewhat with your words ... the problems come from people being judged as not being knowledgeable enough because of outward bhes to question such matters.  

The definition you mention is the definition mentioned in old rehitname as sehajdhari have slightly different expected rehit before they become full sikhs by charan di pahul where they would have to increase their banian and keep gursikh roop in full.. 

Those who have gained entry to the path should really be loving and welcoming to the seekers , prem will achieve much more than harshness to change that person internal impression. I have heard many times that amritdharis are too harsh and judgemental, they look down on us etc etc . If Guru ji can save Ganika , Sajjan Thug and the worst of the worst surely being His children we can accept that these seekers are asking because their time has some to be drawn closer .

No doubt that the best way is prem, guru sahib ji has mentioned it and recorded in a puratan granth, that the best way to bring back people to god is through love, not easy especially when some of us (amritdharis) are so arrogant and proud with little jeevan and knowledge.

 

 

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35 minutes ago, MisterrSingh said:

I go hard on fellow Amritdharis on this site. I believe we need to conduct ourselves with the necessary decorum befitting of those who've taken amrit, and hold ourselves to a higher standard. However, that unfortunately translates to some of us assuming airs and graces that are frankly laughable. It's the ego gone rampant, and I think most of this behaviour originates from some parcharaks and holy men filling impressionable heads with certain views in order to increase Amritdhari numbers so that being Gursikh carries a certain sense of prestige. And we know that humans love feeling unique and special. Extra masala is not needed to lend Gursikhi prestige. It speaks for itself.

However, I agree with the above opinion in bold to an extent. I should preface my words with the fact that the "best" Sikhs I've ever known (however one chooses to measure such things: knowledge, humility, wisdom, patience) started off as moneh. 

BUT there's a small group who have no intention of ever lowering their head in humility at the feet of Guru Sahib, yet they see no issue with pontificating about Sikh issues they should think twice about commenting on as if they're approaching the situation from a place of authority. I can understand if these guys are actively working towards a stage of adopting Gursikhi, no matter how gradually, but in most cases there's never any intention of doing so. Everyone can have an opinion, no problem, but there's certain things that people need to understand can only be discussed with any perceivable sense of confidence and comprehension if you've walked that path yourself.

Anyway, apologies if I've offended anyone. This subject is particularly sensitive for people on both sides of the divide.

A fellow gurmukh once said that if one truly loves someone/something, they would just go for it. And tbh, all the gursikhs encountered with jeevan are those who follow maryada, to the bits. That is why I, personally, wouldn't be trusting anyone who calls themselves Sikhs without Rehat, even if they follow one or two points out of it. 

 

You got the minority part correct! And don't go harsh on amritdharis, they aren't supposed to be perfect, amrit is the first step, not the last. Admission to a school doesn't mean a degree with honours  

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22 minutes ago, Khalistanisinghni said:

And don't go harsh on amritdharis, they aren't supposed to be perfect, amrit is the first step, not the last. Admission to a school doesn't mean a degree with honours  

Some people need to stop behaving as if they're the professors, when they're actually the students. 

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2 hours ago, MisterrSingh said:

I go hard on fellow Amritdharis on this site. I believe we need to conduct ourselves with the necessary decorum befitting of those who've taken amrit, and hold ourselves to a higher standard. However, that unfortunately translates to some of us assuming airs and graces that are frankly laughable. It's the ego gone rampant, and I think most of this behaviour originates from some parcharaks and holy men filling impressionable heads with certain views in order to increase Amritdhari numbers so that being Gursikh carries a certain sense of prestige. And we know that humans love feeling unique and special. Extra masala is not needed to lend Gursikhi prestige. It speaks for itself.

However, I agree with the above opinion in bold to an extent. I should preface my words with the fact that the "best" Sikhs I've ever known (however one chooses to measure such things: knowledge, humility, wisdom, patience) started off as moneh. 

BUT there's a small group who have no intention of ever lowering their head in humility at the feet of Guru Sahib, yet they see no issue with pontificating about Sikh issues they should think twice about commenting on as if they're approaching the situation from a place of authority. I can understand if these guys are actively working towards a stage of adopting Gursikhi, no matter how gradually, but in most cases there's never any intention of doing so. Everyone can have an opinion, no problem, but there's certain things that people need to understand can only be discussed with any perceivable sense of confidence and comprehension if you've walked that path yourself.

Anyway, apologies if I've offended anyone. This subject is particularly sensitive for people on both sides of the divide.

I remember the early days after amrit when we were repeatedly told to not do sangat of non-amritdhari people even family members and it become a real issue as it drove wedges into the previously happy close relationships we had with cousins, friends  etc .Then my Mum realised the best way forwards was to visit and still be close but we would do sewa of those people by cooking for the whole group and then it stopped being an issue as we could still be at ease and eat with them etc. 

I'm not perfect and I know people who have fallen and my natural response is to extend Guru ji's fateh and love to all, (surely Guru ji wants us all to return home, He says it so much). It was this I feel , that helped them stop being stuck in shame of failing and persuaded them to try again. We get so much love from Guru ji how could we not let it flow through us ? I have no power , no grace, no gunn whatever is good is His, not mine .

 

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They need to realize in this day and age anyone, regardless of hair no hair race gender nationality, can debate or criticize religion. If they're strong in their faith, they should be able to counter any points, not make some stupid excuse like "oh, but you're a moneh!" I know some moneh who know more about Sikhi than most keshdhari, how would you know let them participate in a discuss. 

This isn't even about accepting people so they'll embrace Sikhi, more so that anyone has a right to participate in a discussion and debate. 

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2 hours ago, KhoonKaBadlaKhoon said:

They need to realize in this day and age anyone, regardless of hair no hair race gender nationality, can debate or criticize religion. If they're strong in their faith, they should be able to counter any points, not make some stupid excuse like "oh, but you're a moneh!" I know some moneh who know more about Sikhi than most keshdhari, how would you know let them participate in a discuss. 

This isn't even about accepting people so they'll embrace Sikhi, more so that anyone has a right to participate in a discussion and debate. 

What is the point of knowledge if they aren't going to abide by it? Does that not make them clearly hypocrites. 

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Rehat is more dear to the Guru than a Sikh.

Keep talking only the dead are listening. Satguru is the guide and boat. The gurmukh teaches how to paddle across by his guru given wisdom.  The mind is evil and selfish.  Satguru doesn't want speech, for Akal Purakh has spoken.  The head is to be in the feet of the Guru, rolling in the dirt.

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Please Sachey Patshah bless our brother Bhai Jugraj Singh ji and his lovely family. 

Definitely, it's either the Gurus' way or the highway. Rehat is what makes me a good Sikh. Please Sachey Patshah help me to live within the boundaries of your  wonderful Rehat.

Thank you Bhai Jugraj Singh Ji for all your helpful videos. May God bless you and your lovely family.

Edited by kangw

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Not read all the thread as it is too long but I personally believe anyone can ask any question of Sikhi, the whole point of being a disciple or student is to constantly learn and strive to learn

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