Kartarpuri Bir.

[13Mirch]

How do we establish the authenticity of the Kartarpuri Bir???? I am aware most of the below sources are misquoted as per Al-Taqiyaa and anyone familiar with Bhangu's works will know he himself takes great pains to establish it's authenticity. But still wondering.

P.S. This isn't the English Gurinder Singh Maan, this is the American.

http://www.islam-sikhism.info/hist/kartarpuri01.htm
A

[Bijla Singh]

There are many birs still in existence that bear the signature of the Gurus as an approval seal. Saroop of Gurbani was finalized shortly after 1675 and many copies had been made. Four birs by Baba Deep Singh still exist, a copy written by Bhai Hardas Ji still exists and many others. Gurinder Maan is a chela of mcleod and one can't expect much authentic info on Gurmat from him.

[13Mirch]

Wrong Maan.

[sukhsingh]

Veer Bilja Singh can you elaborate on how "Saroop of Gurbani was finalized shortly after 1675"

[Bijla Singh]

After Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji became martyr in 1675, Guru Gobind Singh Ji added his father’s Bani and completed the saroop of Guru Granth Sahib. Many more copies were made from it. One copy was given to Pir Buddhu Shah whose descendants still have this copy. The place where this was done is called Damdama Sahib of Anandpur Sahib (the place still exists). It became the hub of literary work. One copy was sent with Bhai Mani Singh when he was given the charge of Harmandar Sahib in 1696.

The common misconception that the saroop was finalized in 1708 at Takhat Damdama Sahib was started by Giani Gian Singh and it has no basis. It is ludicrous to state that Khalsa was established first but its Guru under whose guidance it was supposed to live came 9 years later. Prin. Harbhajan Singh has written a book called Gurbani Sampadan Nirnay on this subject and it is on Punjab Digital Library. Dr. Trilochan Singh and Sirdar Kapoor Singh also held the same opinion.

It is probable that more copies were written at Takhat Sahib during Guru Sahib’s stay and one such copy was taken along to the south where it was given Gurugaddi and the same saroop was brought back by Baba Banda Singh. Giani Gian Singh states that it was lost during the holocaust while there are other scholars like Prin Harbhajan Singh and Giani Garja Singh who believe that the saroop still exists. Guru Rakha

[13Mirch]

After Guru Tegh Bahadur Ji became martyr in 1675, Guru Gobind Singh Ji added his father’s Bani and completed the saroop of Guru Granth Sahib. Many more copies were made from it. One copy was given to Pir Buddhu Shah whose descendants still have this copy. The place where this was done is called Damdama Sahib of Anandpur Sahib (the place still exists). It became the hub of literary work. One copy was sent with Bhai Mani Singh when he was given the charge of Harmandar Sahib in 1696.

The common misconception that the saroop was finalized in 1708 at Takhat Damdama Sahib was started by Giani Gian Singh and it has no basis. It is ludicrous to state that Khalsa was established first but its Guru under whose guidance it was supposed to live came 9 years later. Prin. Harbhajan Singh has written a book called Gurbani Sampadan Nirnay on this subject and it is on Punjab Digital Library. Dr. Trilochan Singh and Sirdar Kapoor Singh also held the same opinion.

It is probable that more copies were written at Takhat Sahib during Guru Sahib’s stay and one such copy was taken along to the south where it was given Gurugaddi and the same saroop was brought back by Baba Banda Singh. Giani Gian Singh states that it was lost during the holocaust while there are other scholars like Prin Harbhajan Singh and Giani Garja Singh who believe that the saroop still exists. Guru Rakha

How do we refute Adeeba's claim structurally??? Many amongst us have access to Bhangu's works and it is surprising how the fool Adeeba bets his claims on a book orbiting around Bhangu's works but not around the said work fundamentally. He is quoting from a third-hand source basically. And u have to love it how he denies and veils all historical evidence, most made by muslims themselves, exposing the Koran and it's so called authenticity. As far as the Kartarpuri Bir is concerned Baba Gurbaksh Singh deputed Giani Soorat Singh to remove it from Darbar Sahib before Abdali's attack.

[Bijla Singh]

I have not read his article nor do I have any interest. The Bir Sahib remained in the family of Sodhis from the time of Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji.It was taken away by the Sikhs for a short while but the 9th Guru gave it back to the family.

Muslims don't use direct sources but rely on English books that claim to have written the facts. They need to look at Quran and its variations first and not to mention the multiple versions that floated around during Uthman's time. Current Quran's authenticity cannot be proven because it wasn't compiled by Mohammad or during his time. To make the problem acute, all other versions were claimed to have been burnt by Uthman.

[13Mirch]

I have not read his article nor do I have any interest. The Bir Sahib remained in the family of Sodhis from the time of Guru Hargobind Sahib Ji.It was taken away by the Sikhs for a short while but the 9th Guru gave it back to the family.

Muslims don't use direct sources but rely on English books that claim to have written the facts. They need to look at Quran and its variations first and not to mention the multiple versions that floated around during Uthman's time. Current Quran's authenticity cannot be proven because it wasn't compiled by Mohammad or during his time. To make the problem acute, all other versions were claimed to have been burnt by Uthman.

Can you please explain the top comment in depth sir????

[JSINGHANANDPUR]

The site Islam Sikhism - the ppl running it are fake, because they do not believe in healthy discussions , instead presenting their own POV . Never basing their response to any logic and only saying this is written in Holy Quoran . All thier articles are criticising other faiths .Clearly thier dec lared aim is DAWA ( what they say is call to mankind for putting faith in Islam ) Hence their are only collections of negativity .That is the site where Al Taquiyya is active and why should we give him so importance in our discussions ?

[Kuttabanda]

The site Islam Sikhism - the ppl running it are fake, because they do not believe in healthy discussions , instead presenting their own POV . Never basing their response to any logic and only saying this is written in Holy Quoran . All thier articles are criticising other faiths .Clearly thier dec lared aim is DAWA ( what they say is call to mankind for putting faith in Islam ) Hence their are only collections of negativity .That is the site where Al Taquiyya is active and why should we give him so importance in our discussions ?

I've gone through the whole website with Singhs and Singhnis, and from what I've read, the authors of the articles don't apply the same reasoning, methodology of study,rhetoric, and logic to themselves and their own religion. Furthermore, he presents 25% of the story, facts, and conjecture and uses them as grounds to "prove" this and that wrong. Additionally, he has no comprehension of Sikh concepts, his mind is tightly sealed off to anything that may prove his arguements wrong. The Fallacies are quite transparent. An example of this is in the Charitaropakhyan article.

I'd like to see these people to take Gurmukhs like Dr. Harbhajan Singh, Bhai Sukha Singh UK, Gurcharanjit Singh Lamba, Jarmanjit Singh Tapoban Sahib, Jagraj Singh, and Dr. Jodh Singh.

My guess would be that they would avoid such a debate with Panthic scholars, fearing imminent defeat, mockery, and shame.