Discussing Islam And Pakistan - Pakistanipunjabi's Posts Moved

[isingh1699]

PakistaniPunjabi is a proud Punjabi brother who we all love as our Punjabi brother from Uggi and Gurpreet is also Punjabi.

So Gurpreet isn't actually being racist just for disagreeing with Islam's quest for World domination or Islam's human rights record.

Yes they were + I'm proud that they chose to believe in One God rather than convert like others in Pakistan did

Pakistanis also chose to believe in one God...simple.

Allah (the Arabic name for Moon God) and Muhammad (as the biggest self-disguised "partner" of Allah) count as two Gods not one

C'mon dude u know they were forcibly converted to Islam and the whole world knows it! :lol2:

What whole world knows it? I study religious studies at one of the most prestigious universities of America. We are taught exactly the same thing as I told you. Islam arrived in India through military conflicts..but expanded due to Sufi tradition. You are just saying stuff that you want people to believe. Guess what? The "world" believes our point of view..and not yours ....

So the Sikh Monotheists as everyone on this site and history confirms were all offered the choice of death or Islam but somehow your Hindu ancestors as out and out Punjabi polytheists somehow only converted out of their own free will (as the Mughals never persecuted them in your imaginary little fantasy world) and regardless of the racist Jizya mafia tax imposed on them by Islam. Even if you admit some conversion was by the power of the sword, it still means that you are descended from innocent people who were brutally forced to convert to Islam by fear of death. Why you are actually proud of the same people that raped and beheaded the community of your ancestors is down to brainwashing. Jalandhar and Doaba is famous for the brutal oppression of your ancestors and mine.

You say that, yet your name is Arab as a result of the Arab slavemasters. They even think that Arabic is spoken in Heaven! You speak Punjabi today as u were born in Pakistani Punjab. But give the Meccan overlords time and they will have your children or the children's children speaking Arabic as there first language soon enough.

So Pakistani Punjabis will start speaking Arabic? Don't kid yourself.

Don't take it so lightly - that's the future dream of those who seek a return of the Islamic Caliphate run from Mecca

We'll keep on speaking Punjabi and making your jealous b/c Pakistani punjabi is way more richer in dialect than indian punjabi..Pakistani Punjabi has different forms..regional variations..and various sweet and funny accents...Thats why you want us to quit Punjabi and start speaking Arabic.

Its your wish that arises out of jealousy

LOL that's a good way to deflect attention from the reality from the fact that Pakistani Muslim elite wish to destroy all trace of Punjabi language and non-Muslim Punjabi heritage but don't get it twisted we are more than happy for you to speak the language of your ancestors, shame the Pakistani Muslim elite want the eradication of the language of your ancestors. They succeeded in converting your name to an Arab slave name and the last thing left to destroy your links with your past is to wipe out your Punjabi language.

That's the reality bro. More and more peeps are leaving all faiths for western consumerism and Islam is one of the biggest causes of that change.

lol what? Western consumerism isn't a religion. My little brother is a ardent 'consumer'...He just needs all the good gadgets in the market etc...does that make him any less of a Muslim? haha....Westerners are leaving Christianity...and the only Abrahmic faith "growing" in the West is Islam..Mashallah!

But there are more Muslims in the West leaving belief in Islam behind in this western faithless society for atheism/non-religion compared to Westerners suckered into Islam, so a religion that punishes people with death for leaving Islam will hardly flourish when people finally gain the cultural freedom to leave it worldwide.

Actually, I think that Western Islam is even more 'committed' or "intellectual" than Islam in Muslim countries. Here, Muslims actually study Islam..ask questions..explore the faith..etc..and this makes Islam even stronger Mashallah! Ask your Sikh friends on U.S campuses how active/effective MSA (Muslim Student Organization) isis upholding and spreading the message of Islam throughout university campuses..Even they'll know it :biggrin2:

MSA are nothing but a bunch of joke people who believe that converting an innocent non-Muslim with dawah will result in a reward from Allah. The concept that Allah will reward folks for converting into a man-made religion is just funny. Wait, don't tell me, you're going to say that the words of the Quran were spoken by Allah himself ... shame you have no real proof for such a ridiculously false claim. Muslims and Christians can't even prove that Jesus had a virgin birth like it says in the Quran so why should anybody believe the lies the MSA push?

I agree but Punjabi has no formal status in Pakistan and just like the Arabs wiped out Coptic, Assyrian, Babylonian languages etc the Urdu speaking elite of Pakistan will wipe out your language soon enough. Ironically Urdu is closer to Hindi that Pakistani's supposedly should hate.

The elite of Pakistan is itself punjabi for the most part...but yeah, I know..Urdu is regarded as a "higher" language than Punjabi by many young Pakistanis..I guess since Urdu is a national language...thats why? But Punjabi isn't going anywhere Inshallah....

I really hope your ancestors language survives in Pakistan but the consensus is that the Pakistani elite will enslave you all to Urdu this century.

I agree but that history doesn't change the reality today + in the 21st century that the elite who control Pakistan will turn you into Urdu-only speakers becuase of the thinking that Punjabi is a kaffir language and Urdu is the language of the Muslims

hahahha...no one thinks that Punjabi is a kaffir language. Don't act dumb..

Then why are the Pakistani elite so desperate to kill off Punjabi language in Pakistan - unless they are ashamed of it?

Many of your Pakistani Punjabi friends in the West can speak Urdu but not Punjabi. You are a dying minority as you were born in Pakistan. But Urdu-speaking elite is clearly going to wipe out Punjabi in Pakistan as Punjabi doesn't have any real encouragement from the Pakistani establishment. Even Imran wants that. In fact, Imran wouldn't mind English as an official language of Pakistan so he could marry another white girl.

Imran Khan is the greatest political leader of sub-continent alive today :biggrin2:

He must be a great leader (for you) to make racist comments about the faces of black African children (which are ugly in his eyes) and for fathering an innocent child with Miss White and leaving the baby and her mother to get by on there own.

Even I speak Urdu..big deal? I speak Urdu with people who are comfortable with Urdu..and I speak Punjabi with people who are comfortable speaking Punjabi...

Bro by the time you are an old man you'll be lucky to get to speak Punjabi to any youth in Pakistan

Btw, Indian Punjabi Sikh girls in my highschool told me that my punjabi is reallllyyyyyyy goood :excited:

Like I said before, we are pleased that you can speak the language of your ancestors. I respect that you being born in Pakistan can speak better Punjabi than many Sikhs outside of Punjab, so as you can see we don't have anything against you on a personal level. What we don't like is the Arab Cultural Empire's ideology that seeks to dominate the World (Islam) and your role as a Punjabi in that on the Arabic Islamic Empire's behalf.

The Saudi's, rich Arabs and wealthy local elites control Islam for purely political purposes pretty transparently and nakedly.

Fr ki hoya? It doesn't change the fact that there is no power structure within Islam.

Of course there is, the Saudi's, the rich Arabs and wealthy local elites are exactly the power structure that Sikhs and others will never surrender to.

Arab rulers hun haram zaday haigay aaa te sada ki kasoor?

That's no fault of yours. But if you push their false ideology of an Arab Empire (disguised as a din) then you become their accessory to murder, rape and enslavement.

So would you allow your daughter to marry a good, honest Sikh dude in the USA? If not, what is it you don't like about Sikhs that believe in one God?

If I like the guy..why not?

Well good on you for being a liberal Muslim. Why not go the whole hog and ditch belief in a man who when he was 54 years old bedded a nine year old child? Surely, even you would not tolerate marrying off your 6 year old daughter with the marriage being sexually consummated when your innocent daughter was only 9 years old. A Prophet who even sold innocent women and children. Why not leave him but join us as a brother to fight against the ideology of such people and work for entire humanity instead?

But there would be alottttttttttttttttttttttttttttt of variables involved. Talking about this now is just waste of time..

Oh i thought there would be a BUT involved somewhere.

LOL, try tell that to the Arabs. To them you are just one of the conquered peoples.

Doesn't matter.

Good that you have the honesty to at least admit what they think of you. Most Pakistani elites won't even admit that.

It still doesn't change the fact that Islam gave equality and dignity to all humans..

The Holy Quran permits slavery. Islam allows man to sell his fellow man for financial gain. The Holy Quran awards 20% of the profits from such slave auctions to Prophet Muhammad. So there is no real equality in Islam and there is no dignity for slavegirls or grooming victims who Allah in the Quran permits Muslim men to freely have sex with (without marrying them). C'mon dude you know the truth!

LOL because Prophet Muhammad mentioned noble lineage as being an important factor to consider in marriage, which is no different to believing in the caste system

Prophet Muhammad (SAW) specifically rejected caste-system.

Prophet Muhammad believed in the system of Slavery and in the importance of noble lineage (which is what the caste system is all about).

Also, since when considering the family-background of your potential spouse became racist?

That's what Hindu's also say and so do Pakistani's from Qureshi and Mughal castes say when they don't give let there daughters wed those descended from Hindu converts they enslaved like yourself.

It happens every where. Would you be willing to marry your daughter in a criminal family?

PakistaniPunjabi I don't think your Arain caste are criminals. Remember 3% of Arains are still Sikh despite the intense persecution of Arain caste by Mughals in Jalandhar Doaba area

Yes I agree so-called upper caste Pakistani like Qureshi, Syeds and Mughals are often racist

lol..who made them "upper caste"? Pakistan is a Muslim country. We don't have caste-system.

Who are you kidding? You know full well that the Mughals and Qureshi's won't let there daughters wed those from a converted backgroud like yourself that they consider inferior.

We have "clans" though -_____- You won't find a Qureshi saying "I'm superior to you b/c I'm Qureshi and not arayin"

So the Indian and Bangladeshi Muslims that complain of discrimination by Qureshi's and Mughals must all be making it up?

...and if he actually says that..people will laugh at him, make fun of him, and probably even bully him if he was at school..

How exactly would they bully the children of the so-called upper castes that control Pakistan?

I agree Pakistan's Army is no match for America's

No army is...

Good that you admit no Muslim nation can stand against America's army

Last time I checked I thought Pakistan's Army war record was Wars fought = 2 and Lost = 2 (a 100% loss ratio)

Thats b/c you checked on wikipedia .. :lol2:

Pakistan Army fought three wars on Western front and didn't lose even one

Tell me more bro, educate all of us on this forum about how Pakistan's invincible Army has never lost a war ...

...Sometimes they had stalemates and sometimes straight victory..

Oh really ... which alternate universe was that in?

The only defeat was political that happened on E.Pakistan front..not the original Pakistan. Pakistan Army is based in W. Pakistan...not in East...

Ok so the Sikhs freeing Muslim Bangladeshi's from the rape, murder and enslavement the suffered from so-called upper caste Pakistani's never happened and General Shabeg Singh and General JJ Singh and General Arora never freed our Bangladeshi brothers and sisters from Pakistani oppression?

Also, not to mention, Air wars, PAF just HAMMERED IAF every time... :biggrin2:

Tell me more, as I'm not Indian, I'm interested to know more ...

Careful you might not wanna admit such support continues today for the Taliban unless Obama finds out

Obama already knows........

True Obama knows where Pakistani Punjabi's stand on anything related to terrorism

Common sense is the biggest ideological threat facing Islam. The more Muslims use it in the free West, the more they will leave Islam. You should join the process and ditch all this pride in the ideology of the very same people that raped, conquered and converted your Punjabi Hindu ancestors

You have no idea of historical Islamic scholarship or Islam's theology etc. Have you ever wondered why Judaism and Christianity just scummed to post-enlightenment secular onslaught while Islam performed really well infront of secular rational onslaught, Mashallah?

How can Islam perform really well? If you think pedophilia, slavery and drinking camel urine show how great Prophet Muhammad was then I think most people in the World with a bit of common sense disagree with you.

Classical Islam is based on enlightenment, rational era..Remember, Islam saw the "golden age" early in his career? Scholars in as early as 8th century questioned Islam, Qur'an, Prophet Muhammad, Islamic Theology etc etc

Whoever questioned Islam was put to death by Muhammad in his lifetime and the Quran proves this. No matter what excuses you use that slavery and pedophilia were ok 1400 years ago they won't wash with anybody in the 21st century who opposes the abuse of innocent children or slavery.

...So Islam has already seen all of it and Mashallah is geared to survive in the harshest of environments

The onslaught of common sense against slavery and pedophilia is yet to follow.

Islam is only protected at the moment by George W. Bush's big lie when he evacuated the Bin Laden's out of Texas that "Islam is a religion of peace" LOL

..that is why it is THE most successful religion of human history.

True that Islam has been responsible for a greater number of murders, rapes, enslavements in the history of humanity.

Show me another faith that got 2.2 billion followers in first 1450 years of its existence and became a global religion and spreaded everywhere? Only Islam can do that..Mashallah!

Show me any other religion based upon the sayings of a man who at the age of 54 sexually consummated his marriage with 9 year old wife Aisha, who personally sold women and children into slavery and who claimed his own words were the words of Almighty Allah? The more murders, rapes and enslavements a religion does the more it grows. It doesn't mean it's the truth!

So this argument of common sense blah blah is weak.. Do you know that the field of "Qur'anic Textual Criticism" arose in 8th-9th century? Scholars, theologians, rational skepticals etc just teared through Islam..asking questions after questions..questioning everything..doubting every aspect of Islam...and hence the Islamic Scholarship arose. The base of Islam is VERY strong Mashallah..it has already faced the 'music' and came through it...

They are so confident that Islam is the truth is that they have to kill these people for leaving Islam

Other religions just failed.

At least other religions like Sikhi that you class as failures did not murder hundred of millions of innocent or rape innocent women and sell children into slavery, although Christianity and Islam are probably both worthy of 1st prize for pure evil

While Islam swepts through the world globally Mashallah :biggrin2:

The time for conversion by the sword, pedophilia and slavery to sweep through the World is coming to an end and slowly the weak will fight back.

Intresting how you say that with so much pride despite being an American citizen. But Americans are getting wise that this is how many Pakistani's secretly think inside despite not saying it out aloud when trying to get that green card.

lol...I didn't say this with pride.

Don't worry bro you have your green card already. Even if you are proud at how Pakistan's ISI outfoxed America you can't be sent back to Pakistani Punjab

[isingh1699]

You sir, I have nothing against your religion but people like you should better stay away from our daughters and sisters....You should go try to understand Koran and pray 5 times a day.. don't waste your time here.... Improve as a muslim and as a human being... That is all I have to say to you...

ekgurjaskhalsa please don't be so hard on our dear brother Pakistani Punjabi.

I am sure he reads the Quran a lot as he is a student of Religious Studies at Harvard or some other top prestigious university.

The Holy Qur'an:

Qur'an (33:50) - "O Prophet! We have made sexually lawful to thee all thy wives and all those slavegirls whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has awarded to thee"

This is one of several personal-sounding verses "from Allah" narrated by Prophet Muhammad - in this case allowing himself a virtually unlimited supply of sex partners. Others are restrained to four wives, but may also have sex with any number of slaves, as the following verse make clear:

Qur'an (23:5-6) - "..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or the slavegirls (whom their right hands possess)..."

This verse permits the slave-owner to have sex with his slaves. See also Qur'an (70:29-30).

Qur'an (4:24) - "And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those slavegirls whom your right hands possess." Even sex with married slaves is permissible.

Qur'an (8:69) - "But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good" A reference to war booty, of which slaves were a part. The Muslim slave master may enjoy his "catch" because (according to verse 71) "Allah gave you mastery over them."

Qur'an (2:178) - "O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female." The message of this verse, which prescribes the rules of retaliation for murder, is that all humans are not created equal. The human value of a slave is less than that of a free person (and a woman's worth is also distinguished from that of a man's).

Qur'an (16:75) - "Allah sets forth the Parable (of two men: one) a slave under the dominion of another; He has no power of any sort; and (the other) a man on whom We have bestowed goodly favours from Ourselves, and he spends thereof (freely), privately and publicly: are the two equal? (By no means;) praise be to Allah." Yet another confirmation that the slave is is not equal to the master. In this case it is plain that the slave owes his status to Allah's will. (According to 16:71, the owner should be careful about insulting Allah by bestowing Allah's gifts on slaves - those whom the god of Islam has not favored).

From the Hadith:

Bukhari (80:753) - "The Prophet Muhammad said, 'The freed slave belongs to the people who have freed him.'"

Bukhari (52:255) - The slave who accepts Islam and continues serving his Muslim master will receive a double reward in heaven.

Bukhari (41.598) - The Prophet Muhammad said Slaves are property. They cannot be freed if an owner has outstanding debt, but can be used to pay off the debt.

Bukhari (62:137) - An account of women taken as slaves in battle by Prophet Muhammad's Muslims after their husbands and fathers were killed. The woman were raped with Prophet Muhammad's approval.

Bukhari (34:432) - Another account of females taken captive and raped with Prophet Muhammad's approval. In this case it is evident that the Muslims intend on selling the women after raping them because they are concerned about devaluing their price by impregnating them. Prophet Muhammad is asked about coitus interruptus.

Bukhari (47.765) - A woman is rebuked by Prophet Muhammad for freeing a slave girl. The prophet tells her that she would have gotten a greater heavenly reward by giving her to a relative (as a slave).

Bukhari (34:351) - Prophet Muhammad sells a black slave for less money as a racist slave trader.

Bukhari (72:734) - Some contemporary apologist Muslims in the West, where slavery is believed to be a horrible crime, are reluctant to admit openly that Prophet Muhammad owned slaves. This is just one of multiple places in the Hadiths where a reference is made to multiple innocent human beings owned by Prophet Muhammad. In this case, the slaves are of black African descent.

Muslim 3901 - Prophet Muhammad trades away two black slaves for one Muslim slave.

Muslim 4112 - A man freed six slaves on the event of his death, but Muhammad reversed the emancipation and kept four slaves in slavery to himself. He cast lots to determine which two to free.

Bukhari (47:743) - Prophet Muhammad's own pulpit - from which he preached Islam - was built with slave labor on his command.

Bukhari (59:637) - "The Prophet sent Ali to Khalid to bring the Khumus (of the booty) and I hated Ali, and Ali had taken a bath (after a sexual act with a slave-girl from the Khumus). I said to Khalid, 'Don't you see this (i.e. Ali)?' When we reached the Prophet I mentioned that to him. He said, 'O Buraida! Do you hate Ali?' I said, 'Yes.' He said, 'Do you hate him, for he deserves more than that from the Khumlus.'" Prophet Muhammad approved of his men having sex with slaves, as this episode involving his son-in-law, Ali, clearly proves. This hadith refutes the modern apologists who pretend that slaves were really "wives," since Prophet Muhammad had forbidden Ali from marrying another woman as long as Fatima (his favorite daughter) was living.

Abu Dawud (2150) - "The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Qur'an 4:24) 'And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those captive slavegirls whom your right hands possess.'" This is the background for verse 4:24 of the Qur'an. Not only does Allah grant permission for women to be captured and raped, but allows it to even be done in front of their husbands. (See also Muslim 3432 & Ibn Kathir/Abdul Rahman Part 5 Page 14)

Abu Dawud 1814 - "...[Abu Bakr] He then began to beat [his slave] him while the Apostle of Allah (pbuh) was smiling and saying: Look at this man who is in the sacred state (putting on ihram), what is he doing?" The future first caliph of Islam is beating his slave for losing a camel while Prophet Muhammad looks on in amusement.

Ibn Ishaq (734) - A slave girl is given a "violent beating" by Ali in the presence of Prophet Muhammad, who does nothing about it because she was from a poor background.

Abu Dawud 38:4458 - Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib: “A slave-girl belonging to the house of the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) committed fornication. He (the Prophet) said: Rush up, Ali, and inflict the prescribed punishment on her. I then hurried up, and saw that blood was flowing from her, and did not stop. So I came to him and he said: Have you finished inflicting (punishment on her)? I said: I went to her while her blood was flowing. He said: Leave her alone till her bleeding stops; then inflict the prescribed punishment on her. And inflict the prescribed punishment on those slaves (whom your right hands possess)”. A slave girl is ordered by Prophet Muhammad to be beaten until she bleeds, and then beaten again after the bleeding stops. He indicates that this is prescribed treatment for slaves ("those whom your right hand possesses").

Ibn Ishaq (693) - "Then the apostle sent Sa-d b. Zayd al-Ansari, brother of Abdu'l-Ashal with some of the captive women of Banu Qurayza to Najd and he sold them for horses and weapons." Prophet Muhammad trades away women and innocent children captured from the Banu Qurayza tribe to non-Muslim slave traders for property. (Their men had been executed after surrendering peacefully without a fight).

Umdat al-Salik (Reliance of the Traveller) (o9.13) - According to Sharia, when a child or woman is taken captive by Muslims, they become slaves by the mere fact of their capture. A captured woman's previous marriage is immediately annulled.

[ekgurjaskhalsa]

Post news links and proof, you're from California, like me. You don't know what goes on in the UK lol.

Yes, there are also Punjabi gangsters who are born into Sikh families but the difference is these Punjabis don't claim to be Sikh nor are they brainwashed by some mulla or religious Islamic preacher to go on and groom non Muslims to convert them.

I'll give you an example from New Jersey. There was a criminal Punjabi (I think nijjar something) and he had like 40-50 gas stations and he part took in criminal activity and illegally changed the petrol pump so he would steal extra cents off the gas pump. Long story short the man was crazy and he heard about some Pakistanis shouting gandian gandian gaallan to Punjabi/Sikh woman and families and they would basically terrorize the t own but the police couldn't do anything.

This nijjar fellow hired a few men and they sprayed the Pakistanis down with autos. Nijjar was arrested but they let him go and instead thanked him for getting rid of the pestilence...soon after he got caught for murdering his employees and now he is in jail for life.

Moral of story is he was a hard core criminal and scum of the Earth, but he didn't do it because he was brainwashed by a giani ji from Gurdwara to do this lol

Most of the criminal gangs that are Punjabi could care less about their identity and being Sikh nor do they take pride in it.

In the UK these dirty sex/rape gangs even have their moms defend their son's actions blaming it on the victims. In our community the parents would end their kid if they found them doing anything remotely close to this.

~~~

Of course majority of Muslims also, like us, find this disgusting, but that doesn't change the fact there is a population that does what I mentioned above. The bigger majority needs to actively address these problems and that will be the only way to shut up critics.

I know what is going on in UK.... I just want to say that this is sikh sangat forum not Islam bashing forum....we need to improve ourselves and stuff like this happen in our gurdwaras too but I don't want to go into details but this is true that our religion does not support it

Again who cares about other religions? Lets work on improving ours....

[ekgurjaskhalsa]

Areyyy....y getting angry dear...

Everyone is racist here..... N yes me too n I m proud to be I have some personal problems with some religions.. Because of gender differences....I will have another thread started...tomorrow...will surely invite there to discuss racism

Being a girl/female...It is blessing for me by Akal Purakh to b blessed to b sikh n daughter of that person who is unbiased...

Wrong... Not everyone is racist and what is so proud of being racist...it just shows your ego...allot your comments are really childish

Sikhs have to be nirvair... Which means no hatred

. I am also daughter of Guru Gobind Singh but I don't curse and discriminate.....this is not what our Guru taught us.... ...

[ekgurjaskhalsa]

ekgurjaskhalsa please don't be so hard on our dear brother Pakistani Punjabi. I am sure he reads the Quran a lot as he is a student of Religious Studies at Harvard or some other top prestigious university. The Qur'an:Qur'an (33:50) - "O Prophet! We have made lawful to thee all thy wives and all those slavegirls whom thy right hand possesses out of the prisoners of war whom Allah has awarded to thee" This is one of several personal-sounding verses "from Allah" narrated by Muhammad - in this case allowing himself a virtually unlimited supply of sex partners. Others are restrained to four wives, but may also have sex with any number of slaves, as the following verse make clear: Qur'an (23:5-6) - "..who abstain from sex, except with those joined to them in the marriage bond, or the slavegirls (whom their right hands possess)..." This verse permits the slave-owner to have sex with his slaves. See also Qur'an (70:29-30). Qur'an (4:24) - "And all married women (are forbidden unto you) save those slavegirls whom your right hands possess." Even sex with married slaves is permissible. Qur'an (8:69) - "But (now) enjoy what ye took in war, lawful and good" A reference to war booty, of which slaves were a part. The Muslim slave master may enjoy his "catch" because (according to verse 71) "Allah gave you mastery over them." Qur'an (2:178) - "O ye who believe! Retaliation is prescribed for you in the matter of the murdered; the freeman for the freeman, and the slave for the slave, and the female for the female." The message of this verse, which prescribes the rules of retaliation for murder, is that all humans are not created equal. The human value of a slave is less than that of a free person (and a woman's worth is also distinguished from that of a man's). Qur'an (16:75) - "Allah sets forth the Parable (of two men: one) a slave under the dominion of another; He has no power of any sort; and (the other) a man on whom We have bestowed goodly favours from Ourselves, and he spends thereof (freely), privately and publicly: are the two equal? (By no means;) praise be to Allah." Yet another confirmation that the slave is is not equal to the master. In this case it is plain that the slave owes his status to Allah's will. (According to 16:71, the owner should be careful about insulting Allah by bestowing Allah's gifts on slaves - those whom the god of Islam has not favored). From the Hadith: Bukhari (80:753) - "The Prophet said, 'The freed slave belongs to the people who have freed him.'" Bukhari (52:255) - The slave who accepts Islam and continues serving his Muslim master will receive a double reward in heaven. Bukhari (41.598) - Slaves are property. They cannot be freed if an owner has outstanding debt, but can be used to pay off the debt. Bukhari (62:137) - An account of women taken as slaves in battle by Muhammad's men after their husbands and fathers were killed. The woman were raped with Muhammad's approval. Bukhari (34:432) - Another account of females taken captive and raped with Muhammad's approval. In this case it is evident that the Muslims intend on selling the women after raping them because they are concerned about devaluing their price by impregnating them. Muhammad is asked about coitus interruptus. Bukhari (47.765) - A woman is rebuked by Muhammad for freeing a slave girl. The prophet tells her that she would have gotten a greater heavenly reward by giving her to a relative (as a slave). Bukhari (34:351) - Muhammad sells a black slave for money. He was a racist slave trader. Bukhari (72:734) - Some contemporary Muslims in the West, where slavery is believed to be a horrible crime, are reluctant to believe that Muhammad owned slaves. This is just one of many places in the Hadith where a reference is made to a human being owned by Muhammad. In this case, the slave is of black African descent. Muslim 3901 - Muhammad trades away two black slaves for one Muslim slave. Muslim 4112 - A man freed six slaves on the event of his death, but Muhammad reversed the emancipation and kept four in slavery to himself. He cast lots to determine which two to free. Bukhari (47:743) - Muhammad's own pulpit - from which he preached Islam - was built with slave labor on his command. Bukhari (59:637) - "The Prophet sent Ali to Khalid to bring the Khumus (of the booty) and I hated Ali, and Ali had taken a bath (after a sexual act with a slave-girl from the Khumus). I said to Khalid, 'Don't you see this (i.e. Ali)?' When we reached the Prophet I mentioned that to him. He said, 'O Buraida! Do you hate Ali?' I said, 'Yes.' He said, 'Do you hate him, for he deserves more than that from the Khumlus.'" Prophet Muhammad approved of his men having sex with slaves, as this episode involving his son-in-law, Ali, clearly proves. This hadith refutes the modern apologists who pretend that slaves were really "wives," since Muhammad had forbidden Ali from marrying another woman as long as Fatima (his favorite daughter) was living. Abu Dawud (2150) - "The Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) sent a military expedition to Awtas on the occasion of the battle of Hunain. They met their enemy and fought with them. They defeated them and took them captives. Some of the Companions of the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) were reluctant to have intercourse with the female captives in the presence of their husbands who were unbelievers. So Allah, the Exalted, sent down the Qur’anic verse: (Qur'an 4:24) 'And all married women (are forbidden) unto you save those captive slavegirls whom your right hands possess.'" This is the background for verse 4:24 of the Qur'an. Not only does Allah grant permission for women to be captured and raped, but allows it to even be done in front of their husbands. (See also Muslim 3432 & Ibn Kathir/Abdul Rahman Part 5 Page 14) Abu Dawud 1814 - "...[Abu Bakr] He then began to beat [his slave] him while the Apostle of Allah (pbuh) was smiling and saying: Look at this man who is in the sacred state (putting on ihram), what is he doing?" The future first caliph of Islam is beating his slave for losing a camel while Muhammad looks on in apparent amusement. Ibn Ishaq (734) - A slave girl is given a "violent beating" by Ali in the presence of Muhammad, who does nothing about it because she was from a poor background. Abu Dawud 38:4458 - Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib: “A slave-girl belonging to the house of the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) committed fornication. He (the Prophet) said: Rush up, Ali, and inflict the prescribed punishment on her. I then hurried up, and saw that blood was flowing from her, and did not stop. So I came to him and he said: Have you finished inflicting (punishment on her)? I said: I went to her while her blood was flowing. He said: Leave her alone till her bleeding stops; then inflict the prescribed punishment on her. And inflict the prescribed punishment on those slaves (whom your right hands possess)”. A slave girl is ordered by Muhammad to be beaten until she bleeds, and then beaten again after the bleeding stops. He indicates that this is prescribed treatment for slaves ("those whom your right hand possesses"). Ibn Ishaq (693) - "Then the apostle sent Sa-d b. Zayd al-Ansari, brother of Abdu'l-Ashal with some of the captive women of Banu Qurayza to Najd and he sold them for horses and weapons." Muhammad trades away women captured from the Banu Qurayza tribe to non-Muslim slave traders for property. (Their men had been executed after surrendering peacefully without a fight). Umdat al-Salik (Reliance of the Traveller) (o9.13) - According to Sharia, when a child or woman is taken captive by Muslims, they become slaves by the mere fact of their capture. A captured woman's previous marriage is immediately annulled.

All I have to say for this is to listen and understand shabad " bande Khoj dil har roj"

In this shabad you will understand what our Guruji wants us to do...

He explains those people are foolish who argue over the religious books and try to prove them as wrong.....which is worthless

Instead of wasting our energy on this we should look into ourselves and improve ourself

Bhul chuk maaf ji

[ekgurjaskhalsa]

Most Sikh youth in California are drug dealers???? I think you need to go out more[

So most Sikh youth are not only Drug dealers, but even Sikh rape gangs now???

ਯਾਰ ਕਿਸੇ ਹੋਰ ਨੂੰ ਨਾ ਇਹ ਕਿਹ ਦਈ।[/size] ਇਹਨੀ ਵੱਡੀ[/size] ਗੱਪ ਮਾਰਨ ਤੋਂ ਪਿਹਲਾ ਥੋੜ੍ਹਾ ਜਿਹਾ ਆਪਣੇ ਦਿਮਾਗ ਦਾ[/size] ਇਸਤੇਮਾਲ ਤਾਂ ਕਰਦਾ। ਇਥੇ ਇਹ ਦੁਕੀ ਦਾ[/size] ਪਾਕਿਸਤਾਨੀ ਇਕ[/size] ਪਾਸੇ[/size] ਸਿਖ ਫੋਰੁਮ ਤੇ ਆਕੇ ਸਾਡੇ[/size] ਸਿਖਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਬੁਰਾ ਕਿਹ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ ਤੇ ਨਾਲ ਦੀ ਨਾਲ[/size] [/size] ਇਸਲਾਮ [/size] ਤੇ [/size]ਮੁਸਲਿਆਂ ਨੂੰ ਚੰਗਾ[/size] ਕਿਹ ਰਿਹਾ ਹੈ। ਸਿਖਾਂ ਦੀਆਂ ਇਸਨੂੰ ਖਾਮੀਆਂ ਨਜ਼ਰ ਆਉਂਦੀਆਂ ਨੇ, ਪਰ ਮੁਸਲਮਾਨਾਂ ਦੀ ਇਕ ਭੀ ਬੁਰੀ ਗੱਲ ਨਜਰ ਨਹੀ ਆਉਂਦੀ। [/size]ਇਸੇ ਲਈ ਤਾਂ ਅਸੀਂ ਸਾਰੇ ਏਸ ਨੂੰ [/size] ਇਸਲਾਮ ਦੇ ਇਤ੍ਹਿਹਾਸ [/size]ਬਾਰੇ ਅਸਲੀਅਤ ਦੱਸ ਰਹੇਂ ਹਾਂ।[/size] ਅਸਲ ਵਿਚ ਇਹ ਸੁੱਲਾਹ ਇਥੇ ਇਸਲਾਮ ਦਾ ਪ੍ਰਚਾਰ ਕਰਨ ਵਾਸਤੇ ਆਇਆ ਹੈ। ਸੋ ਕਿਰਪਾ ਕਰਕੇ ਆਪਨੇ ਹੀ ਭਰਾਵਾਂ ਨੂੰ ਨਾ ਭੰਡੋ, ਤੇ ਇਸ ਮੁਸਲੇ ਬਾਰੇ ਥੋੜ੍ਹਾ ਜਿਹਾ ਸਾਵਧਾਨ ਰਹੋ।[/size]

ਮੈ ਪੰਜਾਬੀ ਵਿਚ ਤਾਂ ਲਿਖ ਰਿਹਾਂ ਹਾਂ ਕਿ ਸਾਡੇ ਸਿਖ ਵੀਰ ਹੀ ਇਹ ਪੜ੍ਹ ਸਕਣ।

All I can smell is haumai from your comment.... I don't know when we sikhs will learn to stop self praising ourselves and putting other people down... All of you guys are thinking that I am against you or I am your enemy but I only want to guys to focus on sikhi and sikhs...

[isingh1699]

All I have to say for this is to listen and understand shabad " bande Khoj dil har roj"

In this shabad you will understand what our Guruji wants us to do...

He explains those people are foolish who argue over the religious books and try to prove them as wrong.....which is worthless

Instead of wasting our energy on this we should look into ourselves and improve ourself

Bhul chuk maaf ji

Sister don't apologise. What you say is spiritually true. And you re-inforce to our Pakistani Punjab brother that we have no hatred for him on an individual level at all. He seems to be a decent kinda guy who has just been brainwashed by the usual Mullahs.

But in the real world Sikhs say let Muslims be good Muslims and let Sikhs be good Sikhs. But Arab Muslims in Saudi Arabia who control Islam (so I am not even talking about our dear Pakistani Punjabi brother) think let Muslims commit all kinds of crimes against non-Muslims and let Muslims work on turning Sikhs into Muslims. Then it's obvious why Islam has grown more via the sword.

The Jews tried to say let Jews be good Jews and concentrate on there own lives and let the Nazi's be good Nazi's. After that, the Holocaust happened and 6million Jews were killed off by the Nazi's. So Miri and Piri both have there respective places. Bhul chuk maaf.

[isingh1699]

ame="Jonny101" post="584036" timestamp="1370727415"]Most Sikh youth in California are drug dealers???? I think you need to go out more[

All I can smell is haumai from your comment.... I don't know when we sikhs will learn to stop self praising ourselves and putting other people down... All of you guys are thinking that I am against you or I am your enemy but I only want to guys to focus on sikhi and sikhs...

Jonny Veerji didn't do haumai Sister. He just disagreed with your thinking most Sikh youth in Cali are drug dealers.

Sister you are right that Sikhs should not praise ourselves if haumai happens after that.

Nobody thinks that you are against anyone. Everyone appreciates that you have stressed that Sikhi is a true faith of peace.

Nobody thinks of you as an enemy (just because they disagree with you). My Pakistani veer is not my enemy. He is my brother.

True that Sikhs should focus on Sikhi first but we can't put our heads in the sand like the Jews did before the Holocaust or like in 1947 Pakistan when so many hundreds of thousands of Sikhs were killed off (not because of brother PakistaniPunjabi) due to the Muslim Mullahs who preached Prophet Muhammad's teachings about how non-Muslims like you should be raped and mistreated. Remember Guru Sahib ordered Sikhs to fight against the evils of pedophilia, slavery and rape of innocent women. Bhul chuk maaf.

[Gurpreet14]

Wrong... Not everyone is racist and what is so proud of being racist...it just shows your ego...allot your comments are really childish

Sikhs have to be nirvair... Which means no hatred

. I am also daughter of Guru Gobind Singh but I don't curse and discriminate.....this is not what our Guru taught us.... ...

Oh thats great.... u made my work easy... U r Kudi :excited:

Hail u oh Kaur - I know what my Guru teach me... I know what I am upto.. Yes i am childish coz I am Stubborn to not to tolerate unfairness...

My Guru teach me to respect other religions.. Yes i do respect them.. But they teach me to fight against violence.

My Guru teach me to not to discriminate but they also teach me to go against these acts.

I am Female and I am Evil for most of the World's Religions... Its my right to hate those who says I am evil creation of God :omg:

In this kaljug I am Blessed to be Sikh and yes I become deaf when it comes to the teaching of other religions coz they shout and Say

U R WOMEN N U R EVIL :yay:

Below is link for my new thread where I collected some informations which makes me to keep distance from many religions - But I do go to church on 25th Dec and to Mandir on Janmastami with my firends and this proofs that though I am against some religions but I still favour humanity

http://www.sikhsangat.com/index.php?/topic/71826-status-of-women-in-different-religions-say-thanks-to-god-to-make-to-sikh-women/