Free will

[curious_man]

WJKK WJKF

an example: u know that hydrogen consists of one proton and one electron.. how many of us have actually seen or experienced or witnessed it?

we just know it cuz its in our science books. only if we go deep and somehow get hold of electron microscope or we get to masters or PhD level only then we can really "experience it".

similarly we only "know" what hukam is (infact, many of us dont even know it), but still if assumed we just know it as we know the hydrogen atom in the above example. only very few elevated souls have really witnessed the hukam (the will of Akaal Purakh) and when witnessed, it becomes hard to explain as explaining theory of relativity to grade 1 students.

so yes, Guru ji reminds us wht the hukam is.. Guru ji tells us that hukam is with u and its naam, its simran, its remembrance of akaal purakh.

since Guru ji reminds us again and again to do simran, to do good deeds this proves that we have a free will and we do get away from the path of anand!!

but everything is under guru's hukam.. right?? confused???

yes - everything is under HIS command!! and u know what .. even "our" so called free-will is also under HIS command!!

a dog can say that i can roam freely in the backyard.. but in reality its the owner who has let the dog to raom freely in backyard.

so great saints have said that ..hey waheguruji... yes , we have free will but this free will is given by YOU.. hence waheguru ji ..everything is from YOU.. everything is under YOU!!

hope it clarifies the doubts.. and we drop on on the feet of gur shabad.. and our free will becomes prema bhagti which is guru's huakam and then we will see that indeed our will is God's will !!

WJKK WJKF

************************** its really a good topic

[luckysingh99]

WJKK WJKF

an example: u know that hydrogen consists of one proton and one electron.. how many of us have actually seen or experienced or witnessed it?

we just know it cuz its in our science books. only if we go deep and somehow get hold of electron microscope or we get to masters or PhD level only then we can really "experience it".

similarly we only "know" what hukam is (infact, many of us dont even know it), but still if assumed we just know it as we know the hydrogen atom in the above example. only very few elevated souls have really witnessed the hukam (the will of Akaal Purakh) and when witnessed, it becomes hard to explain as explaining theory of relativity to grade 1 students.

so yes, Guru ji reminds us wht the hukam is.. Guru ji tells us that hukam is with u and its naam, its simran, its remembrance of akaal purakh.

since Guru ji reminds us again and again to do simran, to do good deeds this proves that we have a free will and we do get away from the path of anand!!

but everything is under guru's hukam.. right?? confused???

yes - everything is under HIS command!! and u know what .. even "our" so called free-will is also under HIS command!!

a dog can say that i can roam freely in the backyard.. but in reality its the owner who has let the dog to raom freely in backyard.

so great saints have said that ..hey waheguruji... yes , we have free will but this free will is given by YOU.. hence waheguru ji ..everything is from YOU.. everything is under YOU!!

hope it clarifies the doubts.. and we drop on on the feet of gur shabad.. and our free will becomes prema bhagti which is guru's huakam and then we will see that indeed our will is God's will !!

WJKK WJKF

************************** its really a good topic

I like that !!!

That's a good way of putting it.

I've been trying to say the same or trying to make others understand that yes there is this free-will, but it is still under the divine Hukam.

We have to undertstand that our 'MIND' as Only Five ji mentioned is what makes us all act different.

So, that in a similar situation we all react differently.

This mind is influenced and subject to the 5 thieves and past memory of experiences, which conditions it.

so, it is the mind that is responsible for deeds, actions and karma that come into play!

But all of this is still dictated and under the control of Hukam !

So, we can say that ALL our actions are controlled by God, but are they ALL influenced by God or our mind that is weighted with 5 evils ?

No, the 5 thieves is what we have to use our free-will to rise above or become victim to.

It's the self-will that distinguishes our PAAP and PUNN.

[Guest]

So Waheguru Ji does control our free will then.

What about our mind?

[Only five]

So Waheguru Ji does control our free will then.

What about our mind?

It's one question that gets all of us, but say you do find out the answer right now. Do you think it would make a difference in your life in the respect to following Gurmat and living in Gurmat? It would not make a difference because Satguru already has his hand over the Sikhs heads. Only a Gurmukh can tell you about whether there is free will or not. At the moment don't waste time contemplating on this question too much. Rather focus on what is Gurmat and what is manmat. If you focus on these two then you will get closer to the answer and experience the answer.

I'm speaking from personal experience here. Many times the mind made plans, but Hukam always took over and those actions were performed that which Vaheguru willed. As Gurbani says.......only that happens, which Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj makes happen. Nothing else happens other than his Hukam. The mind is not also free because each mind's capability has been set by Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj. Some become scientist by his Hukam, some become drug dealers, some become corporate billionaires. He gives, he takes, he guides, he protects, he gives life, and he takes life. Again Gurbani says, a human is only able to understand as much as Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj will's him to understand..........what else does the poor soul know?

[Guest]

It's one question that gets all of us, but say you do find out the answer right now. Do you think it would make a difference in your life in the respect to following Gurmat and living in Gurmat? It would not make a difference because Satguru already has his hand over the Sikhs heads. Only a Gurmukh can tell you about whether there is free will or not. At the moment don't waste time contemplating on this question too much. Rather focus on what is Gurmat and what is manmat. If you focus on these two then you will get closer to the answer and experience the answer.

I'm speaking from personal experience here. Many times the mind made plans, but Hukam always took over and those actions were performed that which Vaheguru willed. As Gurbani says.......only that happens, which Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj makes happen. Nothing else happens other than his Hukam. The mind is not also free because each mind's capability has been set by Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj. Some become scientist by his Hukam, some become drug dealers, some become corporate billionaires. He gives, he takes, he guides, he protects, he gives life, and he takes life. Again Gurbani says, a human is only able to understand as much as Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj will's him to understand..........what else does the poor soul know?

The reason I'm asking is because in Sri dasam Granth in bhachitaar natak it says that everyone started to praise their own name and not Waheguru.But isn't Waheguru the one controlling that or does Waheguru have no control over them?And when I say them I mean Vishnu,brahma,etc

[luckysingh99]

It's one question that gets all of us, but say you do find out the answer right now. Do you think it would make a difference in your life in the respect to following Gurmat and living in Gurmat? It would not make a difference because Satguru already has his hand over the Sikhs heads. Only a Gurmukh can tell you about whether there is free will or not. At the moment don't waste time contemplating on this question too much. Rather focus on what is Gurmat and what is manmat. If you focus on these two then you will get closer to the answer and experience the answer.

I'm speaking from personal experience here. Many times the mind made plans, but Hukam always took over and those actions were performed that which Vaheguru willed. As Gurbani says.......only that happens, which Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj makes happen. Nothing else happens other than his Hukam. The mind is not also free because each mind's capability has been set by Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj. Some become scientist by his Hukam, some become drug dealers, some become corporate billionaires. He gives, he takes, he guides, he protects, he gives life, and he takes life. Again Gurbani says, a human is only able to understand as much as Sri Vaheguru Ji Maharaj will's him to understand..........what else does the poor soul know?

I think that is a very important point.

That's probably the most vital point made in this discussion and it should get us thinking instead of questioning.

This is because Waheguruji has given us the mind and logic to decide what is manmat and gurmat, what is right and wrong...etc..

This is what we should be focusing on instead of the who and why.

Just think that the 9th guruji could have had guruship after Guru Hargobind ji. He could have been successor as a son, but his turn didn't come until after the 8th Guruji !!

Why was this circle created ?

Because it was ALL his hukam, so that in time and at the right time the 9th Guruji could give his life for the very reason at that specific time !!

What I'm trying to say is that the Gurji's just did what was right and appropriate to them at the time, place andsituations they were in.

It may have been some free-will that made Guru Hargobind ji to appoint Bhai Gurditta ji's son for 7th guru, but this was ALL happening under the ONE masterplan of DIVINE HUKAM.

Something inside him would have been telling him to gor for B and not A!

Guru Hargobind did not know what was to happen in the future lineage and how shaheediyan would be given.

He simply made the decision that seemed 'RIGHT' at the time.

That is exactly what we should be doing, instead of trying to overide Waheguru's masterplan.

Gurbani teaches us what choices and what steps we should take using this little movement of self will that we have.

That is the most important issue.

What we feel inside is the right step to take is the one we should proceed with.

Personally, I have often experienced some dramatic events in my life and then some years later or now, I can look back and realise and see that it was ALL his hukam because then B would not have followed A, and C after B and so on........

I'm sure that ALL of us can look back and say the same in our own personal ways !

[Guest]

I think that is a very important point.

That's probably the most vital point made in this discussion and it should get us thinking instead of questioning.

This is because Waheguruji has given us the mind and logic to decide what is manmat and gurmat, what is right and wrong...etc..

This is what we should be focusing on instead of the who and why.

Just think that the 9th guruji could have had guruship after Guru Hargobind ji. He could have been successor as a son, but his turn didn't come until after the 8th Guruji !!

Why was this circle created ?

Because it was ALL his hukam, so that in time and at the right time the 9th Guruji could give his life for the very reason at that specific time !!

What I'm trying to say is that the Gurji's just did what was right and appropriate to them at the time, place andsituations they were in.

It may have been some free-will that made Guru Hargobind ji to appoint Bhai Gurditta ji's son for 7th guru, but this was ALL happening under the ONE masterplan of DIVINE HUKAM.

Something inside him would have been telling him to gor for B and not A!

Guru Hargobind did not know what was to happen in the future lineage and how shaheediyan would be given.

He simply made the decision that seemed 'RIGHT' at the time.

That is exactly what we should be doing, instead of trying to overide Waheguru's masterplan.

Gurbani teaches us what choices and what steps we should take using this little movement of self will that we have.

That is the most important issue.

What we feel inside is the right step to take is the one we should proceed with.

Personally, I have often experienced some dramatic events in my life and then some years later or now, I can look back and realise and see that it was ALL his hukam because then B would not have followed A, and C after B and so on........

I'm sure that ALL of us can look back and say the same in our own personal ways !

Guru Ji knew excatly what he was doing because Waheguru told him.Guru Ji knew about the shaheediyan that would happen etc.

[luckysingh99]

Guru Ji knew excatly what he was doing because Waheguru told him.Guru Ji knew about the shaheediyan that would happen etc.

Singhji, I was hoping that we would understand a liitle about the point i was trying to make.

Guruji never declared that i know the future or i can do ridh sidh occult....etc.. these things are not what made the Guruji a guru in my opinion.

Ofcourse, they could do much more than us normal beings, but they didn't indulge in the 'wow' of maya or attract any followers in that step.

Waheguruji would be real dissapointed if we start debating like fools about what the Guruji's knew and what powers they had!!

I really don't feel comfortable stepping in this direction.

[Only five]

Singhji, I was hoping that we would understand a liitle about the point i was trying to make.

Guruji never declared that i know the future or i can do ridh sidh occult....etc.. these things are not what made the Guruji a guru in my opinion.

Ofcourse, they could do much more than us normal beings, but they didn't indulge in the 'wow' of maya or attract any followers in that step.

Waheguruji would be real dissapointed if we start debating like fools about what the Guruji's knew and what powers they had!!

I really don't feel comfortable stepping in this direction.

Gurbani does not discriminate between Vaheguru and Guru Sahib. Gurbani tells us they are one and the same, which means Guru Sahib has the same powers as Vaheguru. Having them and using them are two different things. Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj cut the heads of the first Punj Pyare and then brougth them back to life. Satguru in the 10 forms has used powers that are beyond human capabilities.

[Guest]

Gurbani does not discriminate between Vaheguru and Guru Sahib. Gurbani tells us they are one and the same, which means Guru Sahib has the same powers as Vaheguru. Having them and using them are two different things. Satguru Sri Guru Gobind Singh Sahib ji Maharaj cut the heads of the first Punj Pyare and then brougth them back to life. Satguru in the 10 forms has used powers that are beyond human capabilities.