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Hindus at it again.


13Mirch
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I am not against Hindus but I need to point out to you how just about all of them believe Sikhi is part of Hinduism. Below are the points they always, always raise in a debate.

1.) Hindus wear janeu, Sikhs kirpan. There is no difference.

(This is a recent one).

2.) Because a majority of Hindus became Sikhs it must mean Sikhs are Hindus.

3.) Neo-Nazi Sikhs have changed shabds in Gurbani to suit themselves.

(This is where Singh Sabha is slagged off).

4.) Guru Sahib used names of Hindu Gods and Godesses in Gurbani. This means Sikhs are Hindu.

(They are getting quite creative with this mean. Bhagauti is supposed to be Bhagwati in Hindi now).

I know there are many veers on this forum who could answer this stupidness in their sleep, but I am thinking about creating a whole team to smash their arguments to pieces. Off course their mentality will not let them accept the truth of what we say. Maybe a few blogs, facebook pages can be set up. Social media goes a long way nowdays.

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1). Janeu can't be used to defend, Kirpan can.

2). Completely wrong, first sIkh was bhai mardana, or even Rai Bullar - were they Hindus?

Baani bhagat Kabeer - Naan hum hindu, naan Musalmaan, Allah Raam Ke pind paran.

Bhagat Naamdev - Hindu anna, turku kaana, doan te giani seyana.

"Not allowed entry to Temples as he belonged to low caste".

Even Bhagats who Hindus claim are Hindus Bhagat Baani, said "We are not Hindus".

In fact, hindu is a derogactory word used by Persians meaning thief in Persian, the pshycology is to show Bhagats/Gurus/Sikhs as "Hindus" so the word "Hindu" can be justified and glorified. Ask them what does the word "LALA" mean?

I would like to challenge so called Hindus of today when did "Hinduism originated"? Who started it? Indian society by tradition was divided into Brahmin/Kshtrayia/Vaish/Sudra, with population either being Shaivaites or Vaishanavites? When did word "hindu" came?

You will hear some laughable responses - "Oh Persians, did not knew how to pronounce "S", hence they referred to river "Sindhu" as "hindu", which still implies "Hindu" as a foreign word :), and a sign of old GULAAMI, isn't the reason why name of Bombay/calcutta/Madras/Bangalore changed to make authentic names :).

The reality is there was no religion in India :). People divided based on caste system, 70% of the people "SHUDRAS" not even allowed entry into temples, rest "Kshytrias"/"Vaishyas" have restricted rights to worship. So, who are Hindus?

3). Ask them details of which shabads, I am hearing this for the first time.

4). I have replied to this sort of question earlier as well -

"Raam Japo ji aise aise, Dhru Prahlad Japeyo har jaise".

Which Raam - Sri Raam chandra jee, but Bhagat Dhru/Prahlad born centuries before Sri Raam Chandra Jee, how can they JAP SRI RAAM Chandra Jee? Surely, this is some other Raam.

"Panchali Ko Raaj sabha mein Raam Naam sudh aayi".

Which RAAM - Sri Raam chandra Jee, but why she remember Sri Raam chandra Jee, when her lord was Sri Krishna? B.R. chopra mahabharat shows Rupa Ganguly (Draupadi) chanting "Hey krishna" ... So, which Raam is this?

Ek Ram dashrath ka beta Ek Ram kan kan mein baitha - Both Raam not the same :).

Raam gayo, Ravan gayo, jaa ko bahu parivaar, kaho nanak Sangi kach nahin, supne jeho sansaar..

Loads more, leaving to experts, I am a Nimaana Ignorant Sewak, but I need to go in a meeting now ...

I can assure of you 1 thing -

"Blinds will never want to see" - so argument with blinds is useless "Murkhe naal naan Lujheye".

In the end you will be reminded of the Bhagat Naamdev Jee's quote above.

Mehtab singh is an expert - http://forums.waheguroo.com/index.php?/topic/21925-kinds-of-raam/

13 Mirchi, prepare slides run them on slide show, create Videos of these slide shows, each one of them not more than 9-10 minutes, post on Youtube, "Disable any comments".

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guru.jpg

The Vedas and the Semitic texts have not been able to unravel His mys­tery; all the Siddhas are tired of con­tem­plat­ing on Him.

The Sim­rit­ies, the Shas­tras, the Vedas and the Pur­anas have all given con­sid­er­a­tion to mul­ti­far­i­ous ideologies.

Some firmly fasten the idol (of Vishnu) to their neck and some call Shiva their God.

Some say God is in the Hindu temple and oth­ers con­sider His abode in the Muslim Mosque.

Some call Him (God) Rama, oth­ers Krishna and some identify Him in their hearts with other incarn­a­tions.

I have aban­doned all such fake reli­gions and I accept that only God is the cre­ator of liv­ing beings.(12)

If you call Rama to be abso­lutely uncon­ceived and unborn, how could He be born of Kaushalia’s womb?

If you call Krishna the Immor­tal Being, why was he sub­ject to death?

If Krishna was called the apostle of peace and devoid of enmity, then what com­pelled him to drive the chariot of Arjuna ?

Recog­nize Him as your Sole Mas­ter whose mys­tery none has revealed and none will be able to reveal.(13)

You identify Krishna as the Ocean of mercy, why did the hunter shoot an arrow at him?

One who res­cues the dyn­asties of oth­ers, why did he get his own dyn­asty annihilated?

One who is deemed as uncon­ceived since the begin­ning, how did he enter into the womb of Devki ? One who has neither father, nor mother, how could Vas­udeva be termed as his father ?(14)

Why do you call Shiva your Mas­ter? Why do you describe Brahma as your Supreme Spirit?

The lord of the Raghuvansh (Rama), the chief­tain of the Yada­vas (Krishna), Rama’s spouse (Vishnu) whom you con­sider as lords of the uni­verse, were not God.

Dis­card­ing the One God, you wor­ship many. Like­wise Sukh­dev, Prashar and Vyas were proven false due to pan­the­ism.

All have estab­lished hol­low reli­gions. I believe in One God who reveals Him­self in many modes.(15)

Some wor­ship Brahma as God, oth­ers look upon Shiva as their Lord.

Some describe Vishnu as the Lord of the world and coerce oth­ers to wor­ship him as by doing so all the sins are eliminated.

Con­sider this a thou­sand times, O fool! in the end all these (deit­ies) will aban­don you.

Con­tem­plate Him in your mind, who was, now is and shall ever be in future.(16)

He made mil­lions of Indras. He made and des­troyed myri­ads of Vaman Incarn­a­tions. He cre­ated demons, gods, Shesh­naga, moun­tains, birds and beasts, who are bey­ond count.

Shiva and Brahma have been doing pen­ances to this day but could not find His lim­its.

My Guru has told me of the Supreme Lord whose mys­tery is not fathomed by the Vedas and the Semitic texts.(17)”

(Guru Gobind Singh Ji, Dasam Granth — 1544)

also read this excerpt from Guru Gobind Singh Jis bani which clearly states he only worships the almight Vaheguru who created all beings including the angels and the demons (posted at http://www.shastervi....org/truegurde/)

ਨਰਾਜ ਛੰਦ ॥

NARAAJ STANZA

ਕਹਿਓ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਸੁ ਭਾਖਿ ਹੋਂ ॥ ਕਿਸੂ ਨ ਕਾਨ ਰਾਖਿ ਹੋਂ ॥

I say only that which the Lord hath said, I do not yield to any­one else.

ਕਿਸੂ ਨ ਭੇਖ ਭੀਜ ਹੋਂ ॥ ਅਲੇਖ ਬੀਜ ਬੀਜ ਹੋਂ ॥੩੪॥

I do not feel pleased with any par­tic­u­lar cos­tume, I sow the seed of God‘s Name.34.

ਪਖਾਣ ਪੂਜ ਹੋਂ ਨਹੀਂ ॥ ਨ ਭੇਖ ਭੀਜ ਹੋ ਕਹੀਂ ॥

I do not wor­ship stones, nor I have any lik­ing for a par­tic­u­lar guise.

ਅਨੰਤ ਨਾਮੁ ਗਾਇ ਹੋਂ ॥ ਪਰਮ ਪੁਰਖ ਪਾਇ ਹੋਂ ॥੩੫॥

I sing infin­ite Names (of the Lord), and meet the Supreme Purusha.35.

ਜਟਾ ਨ ਸੀਸ ਧਾਰਿਹੋਂ ॥ ਨ ਮੁੰਦ੍ਰਕਾ ਸੁ ਧਾਰਿ ਹੋਂ ॥

I do not wear mat­ted hair on my head, nor do I put rings in my ears.

ਨ ਕਾਨਿ ਕਾਹੂ ਕੀ ਧਰੋਂ ॥ ਕਹਿਓ ਪ੍ਰਭੂ ਸੁ ਮੈ ਕਰੋਂ ॥੩੬॥

I do not pay atten­tion to any­one else, all my actions are at the bid­ding of the Lord.36.

ਭਜੋਂ ਸੁ ਏਕ ਨਾਮਯੰ ॥ ਜੁ ਕਾਮ ਸਰਬ ਠਾਮਯੰ ॥

I recite only the Name of the Lord, which is use­ful at all places.

ਨ ਜਾਪ ਆਨ ਕੋ ਜਪੋ ॥ ਨ ਅਉਰ ਥਾਪਨਾ ਥਪੋ ॥੩੭॥

I do not med­it­ate on any­one else, nor do I seek assist­ance from any other quarter.37.

ਬਿਅੰਤਿ ਨਾਮ ਧਿਆਇ ਹੋਂ ॥ ਪਰਮ ਜੋਤਿ ਪਾਇ ਹੋਂ ॥

I recite infin­ite Names and attain the Supreme light.

(Guru Gobind Singh ji, 137 — Sri Dasam Granth)

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To answer the Janeau quesion say this:

- Shudra (Low castes) cannot wear Janeau as stated in Vedas. However, no shudra is denied the right to wear a kirpan (even though we don't beleive in caste)

- Women cannot wear Janeau. However, Sikh women can wear kirpan

The Janeau discrimates on the basis of caste,creed & gender but the kirpan does not. Malesh are not allowed to wear a Janeau...ever. A malesh can convert and embrace Sikhi and wear the kirpan.

The Janeau & kirpan are worlds apart. One stands for discrimination while the other for justice for all.

Very Good Veer Jee. 13Mirch, keep on adding notes in one central place.

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To answer the Janeau quesion say this:

- Shudra (Low castes) cannot wear Janeau as stated in Vedas. However, no shudra is denied the right to wear a kirpan (even though we don't beleive in caste)

- Women cannot wear Janeau. However, Sikh women can wear kirpan

The Janeau discrimates on the basis of caste,creed & gender but the kirpan does not. Malesh are not allowed to wear a Janeau...ever. A malesh can convert and embrace Sikhi and wear the kirpan.

The Janeau & kirpan are worlds apart. One stands for discrimination while the other for justice for all.

Thats a very good response veer.

I think any sane hindu/khatri/bhramin would be able to look at the distincation and appreciate gift of kirpan by sri guru gobind singh ji. I know khalsa is for all humanity but khalsa is also for all hindus who are victims of discrmination within hindu culture..!!. Victims of discrimation within hindu culture, should give huge slap answer to racist/hypocrist authortian pandits/bhramins by taking khanda batta da amrit, live with nirbhau nirvair attude and live in dignity by wearing maharaj's unfirom and by meditating on vahiguroo which includes all nitty gitty avtars/dieties they are running after but most importantly it includes gyan of nirgun (realization of nirgun parbhram).

I keep saying this and will say it again- lot of followers in snatan orders in hinduism are most of easiest groups/thought to convert to sikh khalsa dharam not because its a typical missionary thing to do but for khalsa thats a moral thing to do as you are actually doing them favor just like how guru sahib sahib did- rising their perception from useless (karam kaand) rituals into shabad nirgun parbhram while maintaining acknowledgement and respect to their avtars as gurbani has done.

But we with our punjabi tribalism have became quite hindu-phobic..................If our punjabi tribal leaders have option to pick one:

On one side- you have 1000 christians, waiting to take khanda batta da amrit.

On other siide - you have 1000 hindus from lower case who are victimized by bhramins within your own community, waiting for khanda batta da amrit.

Without any question, our punjabi tribal leaders will pick 1000 christians in blink of eye (without looking at broader implications - them seeing sikhi from protestant angle) and give them amrit and send those 1000 hindus packing back.

Sant gurbachan singh ji bhindranwale among with puratan samparda- nirmale realized this shortcoming of our punjabi tribal leaders (how thier approach will come back and bit them in their arse) and went to all parts in india to do gurmat parchar and bought many victimed hindus into sikhi fold.

Off course dangers are there on both sides have to be carefully analyzed but at this current time without any question- protestant/bhausariapanthi mindset (rejecting of everything sound hindu in gurmat) approach is one of most dangerous internal mindset which exist in the panth.

It's not up to me to dictate in the panth but -I do purpose Gurmatta/Sarbat khalsa meeting of all scholars in the panth come up with action plan collectively come as parchar material which we can all agree on and follow foot steps as guru sahib did by including all humanity into khalsa panth (not as condescending christian jevoh witness/missionary way) as true advait khalsa performing moral duty to include everyone in khalsa panth and people especially who are victims in fascist indic caste system.

Dreams are just dreams now :( . But, Guru maharaj knows best, after all its his lella and his play will bring khalsa raj whenever its best. :D

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